60th Anniversary Schwinn titanium price

On Sunday, March 28, 2021 at 8:15:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, March 27, 2021 at 4:05:45 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/27/2021 6:37 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, March 27, 2021 at 2:59:18 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 5:57:33 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 6:43:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threa...ramount.27828/

-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.

Well, that's wrong. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/...tigue_test.htm
https://tinyurl.com/443a4p97

You'll particularly like this one, being that you were shopping for Ti forks: http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/s...ork-gerrys.jpg

All materials have a fatigue life, including Ti.
Not true, although there's some mixing of terms going on.

What you and Tom are talking about is called the "Fatigue Limit" or
"Endurance Limit." For materials that have such a thing, it's a level of
(repeated) stress below which fatigue will not occur. So _if_ a part is
designed (heavy enough) so that fatigue stresses stay below that limit,
fatigue is not expected to occur.

But keep in mind, if the part is designed light enough, repeated
stresses can exceed that limit. So even metals with a definite fatigue
limit can fatigue. My prime example was the Reynolds 531 forks on our
tandem - track gage instead of tandem gage.

Some titanium alloys do have fatigue (or endurance) limits, but I don't
know if all of them do.
Thank you Frank. Jay should believe a mechanical engineer if not me. He wouldn't believe me if I said that the Sun will come up tomorrow.

I don't believe you because your error rate is so high. Not withstanding the fatigue limit of Ti metal, as used in bicycle frames, it clearly has a fatigue limit -- and cycles to failure are routinely measured, as in the article from Sheldon Brown. All failures are not in infancy.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sunday, March 28, 2021 at 8:31:15 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, March 28, 2021 at 7:22:07 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/27/2021 4:59 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 5:57:33 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 6:43:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threa...ramount.27828/

-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.

I have an assortment of breaker tube (wrench extender) from
broken Ti frames. And we have sent another dozen to metal
recycling.

Very expensive titanium handcycle for a cripple:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hand14.html
Note multiple cracks. Mo

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bicycle+ti...es&ia=image s
Titanium is particularly difficult to weld. Virtually all titanium failures are at or very near welded joints. The SLIGHTEST O2 in the area being heated will cause TiO2 to form which has the strength of a saltine cracker. I'm not sure but I think that even N2 can react with it as well. And often it is invisible because it is on the inside of the tube. ANY dirt, oil or anything else that can shield the atmosphere around the weld from 99.999% argon can form inclusions. So the early titanium frames had inclusions that could cause breakage. Even in new frames you have to continue to inspect them for weeks after you begin riding. I think I told you the story of a guy I was riding with bought a new Lynsky. I saw a cracked head tube from 3 feet away. He was rather put off but Lynsky knows that absolute cleanliness isn't possible in closed tubing and so simply replaced it without comment. This guy is a very careful assembler and put the bike together. Just the pressure of the headset over a couple of days cause the headtube failure. The new frameset has had 10,000 miles put on it and no problems.

Aluminum must have care taken with the welds as well but nothing like titanium
What causes fatigue in bicycles? These are almost entirely shock loadings and these are mitigated by tires, wheels and the way you sit on a bike. The higher your weight the higher the shock loadings of course because the higher the pressure you have to retain in your tires. This is why bicycle as a rule do not fail from fatigue as much as mechanical failures. By this I mean that the as resins age from time or exposure to UV light, thy develop cracks in their surface which can gradually fork their way through the material enough that it no longer supports the composite. If the material has thick enough layup, such as fiberglas boat hulls, it never gets to the mount that the material is materially weakened. But bicycles are made to be light as possible and that means that destruction of the resin is fairly easy (comparatively). Shock loadings on aluminum are the same sort of problem. They can eventually start cracking. But these days with 28 mm tires I wouldn't expect this to happen. the shock are simply too low. I have never seen a higher end steel bike fail from anything other than a rather serious accident.

Think about this, if you bend a steel rebar back and forth enough times it will break but that has no relationship to fatigue life. But that same rebar in sufficient quantities set into a concrete overpass will last forever.

On 28/03/2021 17:31, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, March 28, 2021 at 7:22:07 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/27/2021 4:59 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 5:57:33 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 6:43:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
FYI:
https://www.roadbikereview.com/threa...ramount.27828/




-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more
specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally
live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors
in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has
no fatigue life, they just go on forever.

I have an assortment of breaker tube (wrench extender) from broken
Ti frames. And we have sent another dozen to metal recycling.

Very expensive titanium handcycle for a cripple:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hand14.html Note multiple cracks.
Mo

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bicycle+ti...es&ia=image s



Titanium is particularly difficult to weld. Virtually all titanium
failures are at or very near welded joints. The SLIGHTEST O2 in the
area being heated will cause TiO2 to form which has the strength of
a saltine cracker. I'm not sure but I think that even N2 can react
with it as well. And often it is invisible because it is on the
inside of the tube. ANY dirt, oil or anything else that can shield
the atmosphere around the weld from 99.999% argon can form
inclusions. So the early titanium frames had inclusions that could
cause breakage. Even in new frames you have to continue to inspect
them for weeks after you begin riding. I think I told you the story
of a guy I was riding with bought a new Lynsky. I saw a cracked head
tube from 3 feet away. He was rather put off but Lynsky knows that
absolute cleanliness isn't possible in closed tubing and so simply
replaced it without comment. This guy is a very careful assembler and
put the bike together. Just the pressure of the headset over a couple
of days cause the headtube failure. The new frameset has had 10,000
miles put on it and no problems.

Aluminum must have care taken with the welds as well but nothing
like titanium


I wondered that. Just about any metal frame failue seems to arrise at
or close to a weld/braze point. Do CF frames go at the glue joints?

On Sunday, March 28, 2021 at 8:44:20 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, March 28, 2021 at 8:15:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, March 27, 2021 at 4:05:45 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/27/2021 6:37 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, March 27, 2021 at 2:59:18 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 5:57:33 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 6:43:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threa...ramount.27828/

-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.

Well, that's wrong. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/...tigue_test.htm
https://tinyurl.com/443a4p97

You'll particularly like this one, being that you were shopping for Ti forks: http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/s...ork-gerrys.jpg

All materials have a fatigue life, including Ti.
Not true, although there's some mixing of terms going on.

What you and Tom are talking about is called the "Fatigue Limit" or
"Endurance Limit." For materials that have such a thing, it's a level of
(repeated) stress below which fatigue will not occur. So _if_ a part is
designed (heavy enough) so that fatigue stresses stay below that limit,
fatigue is not expected to occur.

But keep in mind, if the part is designed light enough, repeated
stresses can exceed that limit. So even metals with a definite fatigue
limit can fatigue. My prime example was the Reynolds 531 forks on our
tandem - track gage instead of tandem gage.

Some titanium alloys do have fatigue (or endurance) limits, but I don't
know if all of them do.
Thank you Frank. Jay should believe a mechanical engineer if not me. He wouldn't believe me if I said that the Sun will come up tomorrow.
I don't believe you because your error rate is so high. Not withstanding the fatigue limit of Ti metal, as used in bicycle frames, it clearly has a fatigue limit -- and cycles to failure are routinely measured, as in the article from Sheldon Brown. All failures are not in infancy.

-- Jay Beattie.
In case you didn't notice- it, that article was from 1997. Those frames, again, were not being fatigue tested but tested to their mechanical limits.

On 3/28/2021 10:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, March 28, 2021 at 8:31:15 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, March 28, 2021 at 7:22:07 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/27/2021 4:59 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 5:57:33 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 6:43:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
FYI: https://www.roadbikereview.com/threa...ramount.27828/

-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has no fatigue life, they just go on forever.

I have an assortment of breaker tube (wrench extender) from
broken Ti frames. And we have sent another dozen to metal
recycling.

Very expensive titanium handcycle for a cripple:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hand14.html
Note multiple cracks. Mo

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bicycle+ti...es&ia=image s
Titanium is particularly difficult to weld. Virtually all titanium failures are at or very near welded joints. The SLIGHTEST O2 in the area being heated will cause TiO2 to form which has the strength of a saltine cracker. I'm not sure but I think that even N2 can react with it as well. And often it is invisible because it is on the inside of the tube. ANY dirt, oil or anything else that can shield the atmosphere around the weld from 99.999% argon can form inclusions. So the early titanium frames had inclusions that could cause breakage. Even in new frames you have to continue to inspect them for weeks after you begin riding. I think I told you the story of a guy I was riding with bought a new Lynsky. I saw a cracked head tube from 3 feet away. He was rather put off but Lynsky knows that absolute cleanliness isn't possible in closed tubing and so simply replaced it without comment. This guy is a very careful assembler and put the bike together. Just the pressure of the headset ove
r a couple of days cause the headtube failure. The new frameset has had 10,000 miles put on it and no problems.

Aluminum must have care taken with the welds as well but nothing like titanium
What causes fatigue in bicycles? These are almost entirely shock loadings and these are mitigated by tires, wheels and the way you sit on a bike. The higher your weight the higher the shock loadings of course because the higher the pressure you have to retain in your tires. This is why bicycle as a rule do not fail from fatigue as much as mechanical failures. By this I mean that the as resins age from time or exposure to UV light, thy develop cracks in their surface which can gradually fork their way through the material enough that it no longer supports the composite. If the material has thick enough layup, such as fiberglas boat hulls, it never gets to the mount that the material is materially weakened. But bicycles are made to be light as possible and that means that destruction of the resin is fairly easy (comparatively). Shock loadings on aluminum are the same sort of problem. They can eventually start cracking. But these days with 28 mm tires I wouldn't expect this to happen
.. the shock are simply too low. I have never seen a higher end steel bike fail from anything other than a rather serious accident.

Think about this, if you bend a steel rebar back and forth enough times it will break but that has no relationship to fatigue life. But that same rebar in sufficient quantities set into a concrete overpass will last forever.


Another large group are cracks perpendicular to or across
the weld line from internal stress during weld of a closed
figure.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, March 28, 2021 at 8:53:43 AM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:
On 28/03/2021 17:31, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, March 28, 2021 at 7:22:07 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/27/2021 4:59 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 5:57:33 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 6:43:28 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
FYI:
https://www.roadbikereview.com/threa...ramount.27828/




-- Jay Beattie.
Thanks. I had not seen that thread yet. Learned some more
specific information pertaining to Serotta and this frame.
As far as I've been able to determine, titanium bike literally
live forever. If there are no failures due to workmanship errors
in the first several months they are fine and since titanium has
no fatigue life, they just go on forever.

I have an assortment of breaker tube (wrench extender) from broken
Ti frames. And we have sent another dozen to metal recycling.

Very expensive titanium handcycle for a cripple:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/hand14.html Note multiple cracks.
Mo

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bicycle+ti...es&ia=image s



Titanium is particularly difficult to weld. Virtually all titanium
failures are at or very near welded joints. The SLIGHTEST O2 in the
area being heated will cause TiO2 to form which has the strength of
a saltine cracker. I'm not sure but I think that even N2 can react
with it as well. And often it is invisible because it is on the
inside of the tube. ANY dirt, oil or anything else that can shield
the atmosphere around the weld from 99.999% argon can form
inclusions. So the early titanium frames had inclusions that could
cause breakage. Even in new frames you have to continue to inspect
them for weeks after you begin riding. I think I told you the story
of a guy I was riding with bought a new Lynsky. I saw a cracked head
tube from 3 feet away. He was rather put off but Lynsky knows that
absolute cleanliness isn't possible in closed tubing and so simply
replaced it without comment. This guy is a very careful assembler and
put the bike together. Just the pressure of the headset over a couple
of days cause the headtube failure. The new frameset has had 10,000
miles put on it and no problems.

Aluminum must have care taken with the welds as well but nothing
like titanium
I wondered that. Just about any metal frame failue seems to arrise at
or close to a weld/braze point. Do CF frames go at the glue joints?
No, they go at the flex joints and only after enough time for the resin to break down in that area. People like Look and Time have some sort of "secret" concerning those resins because they do not break down as far as I've been able to determine. Time also has part of the layup layers in Kevlar which is a long stranded material. This stops a frame breakage since a whole hell of a lot more resin has to fail before it would break the frame. I had a Colnago Dream of some submodel that had a carbon fiber B-stay. The bike flexed at that point enough that it broke all of the paint off around that joint. The Douglas I have has the same sort of B-stay and carbon chain stays as well. I don't know what sort of rider the original owner was but there is no sign of flex there.

I stuck the deep carbon wheels in there with the 28'' tires on it and while it is a little close, it has enough clearance.

On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 08:15:23 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

Thank you Frank. Jay should believe a mechanical engineer if not me.
He wouldn't believe me if I said that the Sun will come up tomorrow.

I also would not believe you. The sun does not "come up" or "go
down". That would imply that the sun is moving relative to the Earth,
which is not the case. The geocentric model of the solar system, with
the Earth at the center of the solar system, fell out of favor in
about the 17th century, after several heroic last stands and scientist
incinerations by the papacy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_model
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentrism
Today, the accepted geometry is a heliocentric model, with a Sun at
its proper location at the center of the solar system. Unfortunately,
we are still left with the rather unscientific description where the
sun, moon, constellations, and stars might rise or fall. It should
have changed when we switched to a heliocentric model, but didn't.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no universally recognized
correct description. Something like these might be candidates:
"The sun comes into view as the earth rotates"
"The sun comes into view"
"The apparent motion of the rising sun"
or something similar. All of these are scientifically correct, but
sound awful, which is probably why nothing has changed. Still, this
is a technical group, where personal opinions involving science,
engineering, mechanics, and bicycles are expected to be technically
accurate. Therefore, I suggest you avoid using "come up" or "rising
sun" and replace them with a scientifically accurate description.

There has been some serious scientific thought given to the
probability of the sun failing to come into view tomorrow.
"Will the sun rise tomorrow?"
https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/will-the-sun-rise-tomorrow-255afc810682/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_problem

There has also been some biblical evidence that the sun failed to come
into view at expected times. We are currently celebrating the
Passover holiday, where one of the 10 plagues was three days of total
darkness:
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward
the sky so that darkness will spread over Egypt darkness
that can be felt." So Moses stretched out his hand toward
the sky, and total darkness covered all Egypt for three
days. No one could see anyone else or leave his place for
three days.
- Exodus 10:21-23

There may also have been an event where the relative motion of the sun
(relative to the earth) froze for a full day, thus extending the
available sunlight so that a battle could be won:
https://biblehub.com/joshua/10-13.htm

Therefore, it is quite possible that the sun might fail to come into
view tomorrow, or be delayed a few hours or days.



--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 3/28/2021 3:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 08:15:23 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

Thank you Frank. Jay should believe a mechanical engineer if not me.
He wouldn't believe me if I said that the Sun will come up tomorrow.

I also would not believe you. The sun does not "come up" or "go
down". That would imply that the sun is moving relative to the Earth,
which is not the case. The geocentric model of the solar system, with
the Earth at the center of the solar system, fell out of favor in
about the 17th century, after several heroic last stands and scientist
incinerations by the papacy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_model
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentrism
Today, the accepted geometry is a heliocentric model, with a Sun at
its proper location at the center of the solar system. Unfortunately,
we are still left with the rather unscientific description where the
sun, moon, constellations, and stars might rise or fall. It should
have changed when we switched to a heliocentric model, but didn't.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no universally recognized
correct description. Something like these might be candidates:
"The sun comes into view as the earth rotates"
"The sun comes into view"
"The apparent motion of the rising sun"
or something similar. All of these are scientifically correct, but
sound awful, which is probably why nothing has changed. Still, this
is a technical group, where personal opinions involving science,
engineering, mechanics, and bicycles are expected to be technically
accurate. Therefore, I suggest you avoid using "come up" or "rising
sun" and replace them with a scientifically accurate description.

There has been some serious scientific thought given to the
probability of the sun failing to come into view tomorrow.
"Will the sun rise tomorrow?"
https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/will-the-sun-rise-tomorrow-255afc810682/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_problem

There has also been some biblical evidence that the sun failed to come
into view at expected times. We are currently celebrating the
Passover holiday, where one of the 10 plagues was three days of total
darkness:
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward
the sky so that darkness will spread over Egypt darkness
that can be felt." So Moses stretched out his hand toward
the sky, and total darkness covered all Egypt for three
days. No one could see anyone else or leave his place for
three days.
- Exodus 10:21-23

There may also have been an event where the relative motion of the sun
(relative to the earth) froze for a full day, thus extending the
available sunlight so that a battle could be won:
https://biblehub.com/joshua/10-13.htm

Therefore, it is quite possible that the sun might fail to come into
view tomorrow, or be delayed a few hours or days.




Or the sun could just go nuts and do the herkey jerkey as at
Fatima 1917.

Things humans can imagine just might happen. Or not.

http://francismary.org/miracle-of-th...ness-accounts/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 13:17:05 -0700, Jeff Liebermann scribed:


Therefore, it is quite possible that the sun might fail to come into
view tomorrow, or be delayed a few hours or days.

For us, it will do so on April 4th; end of summer daylight saving.

On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 16:01:22 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 3/28/2021 3:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
There has also been some biblical evidence that the sun failed to come
into view at expected times. We are currently celebrating the
Passover holiday, where one of the 10 plagues was three days of total
darkness:
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward
the sky so that darkness will spread over Egypt darkness
that can be felt." So Moses stretched out his hand toward
the sky, and total darkness covered all Egypt for three
days. No one could see anyone else or leave his place for
three days.
- Exodus 10:21-23

Or the sun could just go nuts and do the herkey jerkey as at
Fatima 1917.
Things humans can imagine just might happen. Or not.
http://francismary.org/miracle-of-th...ness-accounts/

I don't know much about Fatima, but I have seen some rather weird
weather related phenomenon:
https://www.google.com/search?q=strange+clouds&tbm=isch
along with the usual Photoshop fakes.

Reverse engineering biblical events is always fun. For Moses in
Egypt, three days of total darkness ignores that Passover is
celebrated on the full moon, which suggests that Moses negotiating
with Pharaoh happened around the same time. The Hebrew calendar is a
lunar not a solar calendar. If the full moon was shining, there would
be plenty of available light, regardless of what the sun was doing.



--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558