stop all bike paths etc please!!

If there are enough "safe biking roads", the need for bike paths
disappears.

Good point, but it's not going to happen. Not where I live, anyway.

Just recently, I sent two letters to the Majority Leader of the Nassau
County Legislature. She's a local resident whom I have known personally and
respected for many years. The subject of the letter was the rebuilding of a
major road that runs through our downtown area. The road is to be
straightened and widened. In the letter, I urged this usually sensible
county leader to require that the designers of the new road investigate the
possibility of either a bike lane in each direction or replacement of the
sidewalks with multi-use paths, the way I've seen it done in counties in
upstate New York.

Right now, we've got cyclists riding against traffic, on sidewalks that end
suddenly and dump them into car lanes...all kinds of dangerous stuff. As I
said in an earlier e-mail, the roads have even become scary for me, a very
experienced cyclist.

My letters were apparently discussed at a very high level meeting, to which
I was not invited to support my point. Days later, I ran into this county
leader at an event and she rushed toward me as if to report something I
really wanted to hear. Unfortunately, her news was that the issue of the
bike lanes had been discussed and it was decided that, if the county built
any kind of bicycle right-of-way in OUR community, then ALL local
communities would start asking for them.

Of course, I held my tongue because I've known this person for so long and
she has been very helpful to me in my past bicycle-related projects. But
what I wanted to say was "Duuuh! Perhaps everyone would want this because
it's THE RIGHT THING TO DO?????"

On Nov 17, 7:51 am, "Papa Tom" wrote:
If there are enough "safe biking roads", the need for bike paths
disappears.

Good point, but it's not going to happen. Not where I live, anyway.

IMO, the path to "safe biking roads" begins thus:

1) Driver education: teach the rights of cyclists and the
responsibilities of drivers

2) Cyclist education: teach both the rights and the *responsibilities*
of cyclists

3) Police education: teach the police the law

4) Make cycling mainstream and accepted: work for cyclists rights to
the road, *not for bike paths*(which marginalize cyclists).
Discourage, loudly if necessary, those cyclists who ride on the
sidewalk, ride against traffic, blow through stop signs/red lights,
etc. Commute, shop and do errands on your bike.


remainder snipped

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 04:04:04 -0800 (PST), Ozark Bicycle
wrote:

On Nov 17, 5:55 am, "Papa Tom" wrote:
I guess the reason I'm not "getting" this is that the bike paths here are
always empty. As cool as they are, they're just too far from anywhere to
attract a lot of people -- especially since most would have to buy racks for
their cars. I say, in New York, we don't need anymore paths. We just need
safe biking roads that lead to them.


If there are enough "safe biking roads", the need for bike paths
disappears.

Hmmm, like in the Netherlands?

JFT

I agree again. However, the attitudes toward cycling have deteriorated far
quicker here in New York than they have out where you are. I travel a lot
for a living and the things I've seen in the midwest and the south make me
really envious.

People out here will never sit through a class on the rules of safe cycling.
Aren't you aware that all of us New Yorkers (especially Long Islanders)
already know everything there is to know about everything?


"Ozark Bicycle" wrote in message
...
On Nov 17, 7:51 am, "Papa Tom" wrote:
If there are enough "safe biking roads", the need for bike paths
disappears.

Good point, but it's not going to happen. Not where I live, anyway.

IMO, the path to "safe biking roads" begins thus:

1) Driver education: teach the rights of cyclists and the
responsibilities of drivers

2) Cyclist education: teach both the rights and the *responsibilities*
of cyclists

3) Police education: teach the police the law

4) Make cycling mainstream and accepted: work for cyclists rights to
the road, *not for bike paths*(which marginalize cyclists).
Discourage, loudly if necessary, those cyclists who ride on the
sidewalk, ride against traffic, blow through stop signs/red lights,
etc. Commute, shop and do errands on your bike.


remainder snipped

"Papa Tom" wrote in message
...
I agree again. However, the attitudes toward cycling have deteriorated far
quicker here in New York than they have out where you are. I travel a lot
for a living and the things I've seen in the midwest and the south make me
really envious.

People out here will never sit through a class on the rules of safe
cycling. Aren't you aware that all of us New Yorkers (especially Long
Islanders) already know everything there is to know about everything?


"Ozark Bicycle" wrote in message
...
On Nov 17, 7:51 am, "Papa Tom" wrote:
If there are enough "safe biking roads", the need for bike paths
disappears.

Good point, but it's not going to happen. Not where I live, anyway.

IMO, the path to "safe biking roads" begins thus:

1) Driver education: teach the rights of cyclists and the
responsibilities of drivers

2) Cyclist education: teach both the rights and the *responsibilities*
of cyclists

3) Police education: teach the police the law

4) Make cycling mainstream and accepted: work for cyclists rights to
the road, *not for bike paths*(which marginalize cyclists).
Discourage, loudly if necessary, those cyclists who ride on the
sidewalk, ride against traffic, blow through stop signs/red lights,
etc. Commute, shop and do errands on your bike.

Papa Tom is quite right. It is only liberals who believe in the magic of
education. Most folks will not bother with it since kids ride bikes, do they
not? Education is mostly a dead end anyway. If it works at all, it only
works on kids.

Bike paths are the answer unless cycling is given up altogether by everyone.
That is a distinct possibility. I think there is much less cycling today
than there was in the 70s for instance - and it is all due to the madness of
the traffic on our roads.

The fact is that roads can never be made safe for cyclists. Hells Bells,
they are not even safe for motorcyclists. They are strictly for motor
vehicles, the 4-wheel kind. Even bike lanes are dangerous to say the least.
A cyclist ventures out onto most roads literally risking his life. Bike
paths are the only sensible solution.

However, I do not like bike paths that become crowded. If we have enough of
them and they are well designed, all of our troubles will disappear forever.
Thus spake Zarathustra!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 04:04:04 -0800 (PST), Ozark Bicycle
wrote:

On Nov 17, 5:55 am, "Papa Tom" wrote:
I guess the reason I'm not "getting" this is that the bike paths here are
always empty. As cool as they are, they're just too far from anywhere to
attract a lot of people -- especially since most would have to buy racks for
their cars. I say, in New York, we don't need anymore paths. We just need
safe biking roads that lead to them.

If there are enough "safe biking roads", the need for bike paths
disappears.

Hmmm, like in the Netherlands?

In more of the NL than you might like to think...
http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pj...ix/ddbb3-3.jpg and
http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pj...ix/ddbb5-1.jpg are pictures
taken on rural roads in NL, no fietspad in sight, no need for one
either. We'd meet cars on these roads and were treated with the sort of
courtesy that's typically what makes riding in NL safe.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Nov 16, 7:51 pm, "Papa Tom" wrote:
As a lifelong resident of a town that has gone from "country" to urban-like
suburb in less than fifty years, I've been torn about bike paths for some
time myself. Yeah, I wish the roads would go back to the way they were when
I was a kid and I was able to ride them anywhere I wanted to go. And I wish
drivers and cyclists could figure out how to live together and share the
pavement. But that isn't going to happen around here anytime soon.

Motorists need to realize that they are licensed to drive for a
reason: driving is a ****ing privilege, not a right! The government
needs to emphasize that, too. They need to hammer the concept in when
people take driving lessons, driving tests, apply for licenses, renew
their licenses, pay fines for violating rules (double-parking, idling
engines, etc.)...driving is a right and should be reserved to those
who can operate a vehicle properly.

ANYONE CAUGHT DWI/DUI SHOULD HAVE THEIR LICENSES SUSPENDED FOR TEN
YEARS. SECOND VIOLATION IS A PERMANENT SUSPENSION. DRIVING WITHOUT A
LICENSE SHOULD MEAN AT LEAST HALF A YEAR IN JAIL. NO ****ING
EXCEPTIONS.

That'll solve the problem, guaran-****in'-teed.

I say this as a sometime-motorist, too, of course. Driving is a
privilege, not a right.

Meanwhile, fewer and fewer people here are allowing their kids to even own
bicycles, let alone ride them anywhere. And I understand why. As an
experienced cyclist who has ridden the same roads on a regular basis for the
past 35-40 years, I find I'm constantly in life-threatening situations when
I get out on the road. So more and more, I'm packing my bike into the car
and driving to bike paths in Westchester, in New Jersey, and right here on
Long Island. A lot of other Long Islanders are doing the same. For me,
sometimes it's either that - or leave the bike in the garage and go eat a
sandwich.

I've only started exploring the surround environs of NYC, like within
the last three years, so I guess I've been extremely lucky in not
having had any experiences which make me seriously question my safety
out on the road. I think it's a lot of fear-mongering that goes on,
partly for economic reasons (helmet industry), partly for political
reasons (bicycling lobbies), partly due to human nature
(melodramatic)...what we need are draconian laws severely limiting who
gets to drive and under what conditions. Unfortunately, we live in a
"democracy," so-called, where the powerful auto lobby can run over any
attempt at fairness and common decency, whether it involves the
environment or American workers or motorist safety or pedestrian/
bicyclist rights.

Regarding this problem with the police and the laws of the road, I think
there needs to be better education all around. I ran bicycle safety
programs in our local schools for a number of years and always tried to
involve the police. Sadly, I never found one who understood the basic
bicycle laws.

Likewise, I am constantly frustrated by how little people know or CARE to
know about how to ride a bicycle safely in traffic. And why should they,
when the rules of safe automobile driving are so universally ignored?

I think there should be very few rules on how to ride -- or walk! --
in traffic. Driving is a privilege, not a right. It follows then
that pedestrian/bicyclist needs ought to trump in most any situation.
Somebody in the middle of the street? STOP YOUR ****ING CAR. It's
very simple. Period. **** this **** about "sharing" the road...the
road is OURS, OURS TO SHARE -- AS SPACE PERMITS!

The problems between cops and cyclists can be broken down to the basic
components of a fist fight: When two people are arguing and both run out of
intelligence, the fists inevitably start flying. Similarly, when neither
the cops nor the cyclists know what the hell they are talking about, the
bullying begins...and the cops usually win.

I hate to say it, but because of the auto lobby -- and the fact that
most Americans are fat-assed lazy slobs -- they think cars are among
God's creation and sacred and holy and the Number One Priority when it
comes to public policy.

Against that attitude, anything we suggest is taken as a fanciful
letter to Santa, to be somewhat humored in Christian charity when the
economics presents itself.

Folks like you will go on with your official appeals, all reasonable
and polite, while folks like me will continue to **** show our ass to
the motorists honking behind us; both arms need to be used in a fight.

thanks to all that have responded-prisoner of war--anyone with a dwi should
never be able to drive again--person who sold alcohol to heim/her should
also be persecuted...

i dont know about educating people about bike safety--we have in the
bronx--people wearing hoods like medieval priests--cannot see their face
usually have a pit bull on chain and a shirt that says "**** you you ****ing
****" or just plain "**** you"-- i have never seen them in manhattan--

thanks once again

peter
"Prisoner at War" wrote in message
...
On Nov 16, 7:51 pm, "Papa Tom" wrote:
As a lifelong resident of a town that has gone from "country" to
urban-like
suburb in less than fifty years, I've been torn about bike paths for some
time myself. Yeah, I wish the roads would go back to the way they were
when
I was a kid and I was able to ride them anywhere I wanted to go. And I
wish
drivers and cyclists could figure out how to live together and share the
pavement. But that isn't going to happen around here anytime soon.

Motorists need to realize that they are licensed to drive for a
reason: driving is a ****ing privilege, not a right! The government
needs to emphasize that, too. They need to hammer the concept in when
people take driving lessons, driving tests, apply for licenses, renew
their licenses, pay fines for violating rules (double-parking, idling
engines, etc.)...driving is a right and should be reserved to those
who can operate a vehicle properly.

ANYONE CAUGHT DWI/DUI SHOULD HAVE THEIR LICENSES SUSPENDED FOR TEN
YEARS. SECOND VIOLATION IS A PERMANENT SUSPENSION. DRIVING WITHOUT A
LICENSE SHOULD MEAN AT LEAST HALF A YEAR IN JAIL. NO ****ING
EXCEPTIONS.

That'll solve the problem, guaran-****in'-teed.

I say this as a sometime-motorist, too, of course. Driving is a
privilege, not a right.

Meanwhile, fewer and fewer people here are allowing their kids to even
own
bicycles, let alone ride them anywhere. And I understand why. As an
experienced cyclist who has ridden the same roads on a regular basis for
the
past 35-40 years, I find I'm constantly in life-threatening situations
when
I get out on the road. So more and more, I'm packing my bike into the
car
and driving to bike paths in Westchester, in New Jersey, and right here
on
Long Island. A lot of other Long Islanders are doing the same. For me,
sometimes it's either that - or leave the bike in the garage and go eat a
sandwich.

I've only started exploring the surround environs of NYC, like within
the last three years, so I guess I've been extremely lucky in not
having had any experiences which make me seriously question my safety
out on the road. I think it's a lot of fear-mongering that goes on,
partly for economic reasons (helmet industry), partly for political
reasons (bicycling lobbies), partly due to human nature
(melodramatic)...what we need are draconian laws severely limiting who
gets to drive and under what conditions. Unfortunately, we live in a
"democracy," so-called, where the powerful auto lobby can run over any
attempt at fairness and common decency, whether it involves the
environment or American workers or motorist safety or pedestrian/
bicyclist rights.

Regarding this problem with the police and the laws of the road, I think
there needs to be better education all around. I ran bicycle safety
programs in our local schools for a number of years and always tried to
involve the police. Sadly, I never found one who understood the basic
bicycle laws.

Likewise, I am constantly frustrated by how little people know or CARE to
know about how to ride a bicycle safely in traffic. And why should they,
when the rules of safe automobile driving are so universally ignored?

I think there should be very few rules on how to ride -- or walk! --
in traffic. Driving is a privilege, not a right. It follows then
that pedestrian/bicyclist needs ought to trump in most any situation.
Somebody in the middle of the street? STOP YOUR ****ING CAR. It's
very simple. Period. **** this **** about "sharing" the road...the
road is OURS, OURS TO SHARE -- AS SPACE PERMITS!

The problems between cops and cyclists can be broken down to the basic
components of a fist fight: When two people are arguing and both run out
of
intelligence, the fists inevitably start flying. Similarly, when neither
the cops nor the cyclists know what the hell they are talking about, the
bullying begins...and the cops usually win.

I hate to say it, but because of the auto lobby -- and the fact that
most Americans are fat-assed lazy slobs -- they think cars are among
God's creation and sacred and holy and the Number One Priority when it
comes to public policy.

Against that attitude, anything we suggest is taken as a fanciful
letter to Santa, to be somewhat humored in Christian charity when the
economics presents itself.

Folks like you will go on with your official appeals, all reasonable
and polite, while folks like me will continue to **** show our ass to
the motorists honking behind us; both arms need to be used in a fight.

Folks like you will go on with your official appeals, all reasonable and
polite, while folks like me will continue to **** show our ass to the
motorists honking behind us; both arms need to be used in a fight.

I'm not sure what that means, but it seemed worth repeating.

Anyway, I understand your frustration and anger. However, I don't think we
can overlook cyclists' responsibilities if we're going to trash auto drivers
that way. I see plenty of cyclists causing situations where they - and
other people on the road - can get seriously hurt because of stupid,
irresponsible behavior. If we look at this issue as one that can only be
black or white, things will just go on the same way forever, and cyclists
and peds will continue to lose.

Have you noticed that those Critical Mass things never accomplish anything?

On Nov 19, 5:42 pm, "ilaboo" wrote:
thanks to all that have responded-prisoner of war--anyone with a dwi should
never be able to drive again--person who sold alcohol to heim/her should
also be persecuted...

While I am tempted to personally persecute them, too, I would be glad
for there to be real, meaningful prosecution under law -- tough,
draconian laws, of course. DWI/DUI is simply inexcusable, absolutely
inexcusable. It's damn near premeditated murder or attempted murder!

i dont know about educating people about bike safety--we have in the
bronx--people wearing hoods like medieval priests--cannot see their face
usually have a pit bull on chain and a shirt that says "**** you you ****ing
****" or just plain "**** you"-- i have never seen them in manhattan--

Hopefully gentrification will push the rabble out. Funny thing when
you think about it, but it takes young clueless white liberals
transplanted from Wonderbread land points out west to remake the
city's toughest neighborhoods! I notice that the black and hispanic
rabble of Williamsburg, for example, seem a bit better behaved than
they used to be in the past, likely due to all the artsy-fartsy folks
(i.e., "money" and "class") walking on the same streets they are,
putting their ghetto ways to shame.

thanks once again

Cheer up; the South Bronx, Mott Haven, etc., are supposed to be the
next Williamsburg.

peter