Canada's most dangerous city for cyclists

On Sat, 04 May 2013 11:50:03 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Now I take pains to wear a bright red jacket or shirt.

Red is too dull. I wear taxicab orange -- but only because
fabricstore.com didn't have any lime-yellow linen.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.

On May 4, 4:16 pm, wrote:
On Saturday, May 4, 2013 6:06:12 PM UTC-4, Jay Beattie wrote:

Road crashes often have nothing to do with cars, traffic, vehicular

cycling or traffic skills. They have more to do with snow and ice and

other crap on the road.

You're correct, most bike crashes by far are caused by problems with pavement. We have only two wheels. We have to watch where we put them.

Here's a graphic showing overall crash causes on the left, car-bike crashes in more detail on the right:http://www.labreform.org/blunders/crash-charts.gif

And yes, as someone said earlier, there are lots of bike-bike crashes. Watch who you ride with.

Many times its the bad-boy, salmoning, wheelji

king cyclists who can cope best with lost traction. The hand signal

and flippy-flaggers go down.

The careful riders may go down IF they get themselves into a lost traction situation. But I think any honest count will show wheelie kings crashing much more than careful riders.


Duh. While "careful riders" may have more problems handling a bike, a
couple of crashes is probably the most it would take to get most of
them off the bike for good (not wheelie king, though), and even if
they *do* hang in and keep riding, they're *never* going to understand
the reward that wheelie king risks crasjhing for.

One way to put it might be this: A person crashes at the moment his risk-taking demands more than his physical skill.


Or his luck (which he pushes)... or his judgment of conditions (which
he also demands *much* more of than more "careful riders")... or...
(I'm giving this too much time already, but the point is you'd better
stick to the shallow end of the pool when discussing crashing.)

So the wheelie king, in search of "Lookit me!" glory, takes more and more risks to practice being on the edge more and more. Eventually, he can raise his skill to the Hans Rey level, and if it becomes necessary, can use that skill to avoid a crash.

OTOH, a wise old guy can say "That's dumb. I'm just going to learn to read the road surface, read traffic, be careful and ride within my existing skills." If he's good enough at that, he'll probably crash far less than Mister Trickster.


Correct. Risk / Reward. Different strokes for different folks.

Let's look at it another way: Mr. Trickster might easily be able to
outperform wise old guy at his own game (though almost certainly not
the other way 'round) - don't you think? So who's the more competent
bike rider. It's merely a matter of purposes.

Heck, Mr. Trickster may even acknowledge wise old guy's acumen at wise
old guy's particular purpose. Can wise old guy acknowledge Mr.
Trickster must also know a thing or two - that in fact Mr. Trickster's
activities are many times more demanding of "watching the development
of situations in traffic, and acting tactically", etc.?

It would seem that wise old guy cannot.

snip


And I know that there are bound to be people reading this who will refuse to believe it. But time after time after time I've talked or corresponded with dedicated vehicular cyclists who have learned it all just WORKS. Again, Keri Caffrey mentions this in that talk I linked to earlier. We just have so few problems compared to people who think they must defer to drivers, hug the curb, seek out special infrastructure, etc.


Hmm... the subject seems to have veered to the polar opposite of
wheelie king; now you're on about "careful riders".

Ride note: sunny and beautiful here in PDX about 80F, big east wind

-- I mean blow you over big.

Great weather and east winds here too, although they can't be the same wind. I was flying along to the hardware store today, and grinding my way back upwind on the way home. Wildflowers are out in the Forest, and we saw three young Great Horned Owls today. A beautiful time of year.


I remember one day riding home in a ferocious sidewind (not a nice,
sunny day, either - but a cold, ~wet, nasty one) - complete with hard,
sudden gusts. It was bad enough that I crossed over the far other
(wrong) side of the four-lane divided highway so that if I was picked
up and blown away it wouldn't be into the high speed motor traffic.

Yeah, it's a beautiful time of year (here in N America) - on that we
can agree :-)
--
Cheers... and regards

On May 4, 2:02 pm, Lou Holtman wrote:
Dan O wrote:
On May 4, 1:53 pm, Dan O wrote:
On May 4, 1:50 pm, wrote:

On Saturday, May 4, 2013 1:26:37 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:

Test me. Come on, ask me something. See if I know (I *promise* to

answer straight out of my head without looking *anything* up.)

OK. How many crashes have you had in the past ten years?

Hmm... more than ten, less than a hundred.

How does this question bear on my learning?

A: I have had *far* more opportunity to know all the factors that
acually result in crashes, and *far* more experience with the actual
results than you have in your entire life.

Seems you have a lot to learn before you start presuming to know the
first thing about it.

C'mon, professor.

After a week skiing the wife of my friend once said, 'I didn't crash this
week at all'. After ten years she still skis like a beginner.... On
beginners slopes.


My first day skiing I never figured out how to turn - just slid across
the slope, threw myself to the ground to stop, got up pointed the
other way, and did it again.

(Fortunately this chick that I used to go with before happened to be
there, took pity on me, and the day was not a total waste :-)

The second time I went skiing, I got off the chair lift first thing,
slid down the ramp as before, but - and maybe there was a bank of
camber from other skiers turning off there, but I got just enough
cornering action to feel it in my ankles: "Hey! It's the same as
roller skating! I can do that!"

Later that day I was on the black runs. Some "wise old guy" saw me
going great gonzo in my jeans and long hair, and made some smiling
remark about us freestylers.

Mmmmmmmm... Freestyle...

On May 4, 8:17 pm, Dan O wrote:
On May 4, 2:02 pm, Lou Holtman wrote:



Dan O wrote:
On May 4, 1:53 pm, Dan O wrote:
On May 4, 1:50 pm, wrote:

On Saturday, May 4, 2013 1:26:37 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:

Test me. Come on, ask me something. See if I know (I *promise* to

answer straight out of my head without looking *anything* up.)

OK. How many crashes have you had in the past ten years?

Hmm... more than ten, less than a hundred.

How does this question bear on my learning?

A: I have had *far* more opportunity to know all the factors that
acually result in crashes, and *far* more experience with the actual
results than you have in your entire life.

Seems you have a lot to learn before you start presuming to know the
first thing about it.

C'mon, professor.

After a week skiing the wife of my friend once said, 'I didn't crash this
week at all'. After ten years she still skis like a beginner.... On
beginners slopes.

My first day skiing I never figured out how to turn - just slid across
the slope, threw myself to the ground to stop, got up pointed the
other way, and did it again.

(Fortunately this chick that I used to go with before happened to be
there, took pity on me, and the day was not a total waste :-)

The second time I went skiing, I got off the chair lift first thing,
slid down the ramp as before, but - and maybe there was a bank of
camber from other skiers turning off there, but I got just enough
cornering action to feel it in my ankles: "Hey! It's the same as
roller skating! I can do that!"


Roller skating. (Frank will love this.) As teenagers, my girlfriend
and I used to put on skates summer nights after dark, fill our 32 oz
plastic mugs with, um... ice cold beverage, and the streets were our
playground - zooming on and off sidewalks, round and round inside the
deserted laundramat, take the elevator back to the top at the
mall... :-)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...king+ch ances

(As you may imagine, my plastic mug acquired some wicked scuffs and
gouges. And then there was that rose bush incident - ouch!)

Later that day I was on the black runs. Some "wise old guy" saw me
going great gonzo in my jeans and long hair, and made some smiling
remark about us freestylers.

Mmmmmmmm... Freestyle...

On Sat, 04 May 2013 20:48:14 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

But they are still dead. Your skills are admirable. I
sincerely hope you do not find yourself in a similar
situation where rider skill is simply not a factor.

Not even staying at home on your sofa will save you from reckless
drivers. When I lived in New York, there were two instances of cars
crashing through walls within walking distance of my house. In
neither case were there fatalities -- in the first case because a man
stopped to talk to a friend on his way back from the rest room, in the
second because the boy who normally slept in the room closest to the
road wasn't home.

The contractor who winched the house back onto its foundation and
repaired the crushed sleeping porch is reported to have said that what
appeared to be brick facing was really brick foundation wall -- all
the way up.

Despite these incidents, I always looked both ways before crossing the
road to pick up my mail.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.

On May 4, 2:53 pm, wrote:
On Saturday, May 4, 2013 5:15:02 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:
On May 4, 2:07 pm, wrote:

On Saturday, May 4, 2013 2:51:50 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:

On May 2, 8:14 pm, wrote:

On Thursday, May 2, 2013 9:02:09 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Whilst the article is interesting it's the comments below it that really get me thinking. It's amazing how many people think that bicyclists do NOT belong on the roads. Also interesting how many bicyclists delight in flaunting the Rules of the Road whenever it pleases tthem.

Yep. Two days ago, I was on a narrow-ish two lane street that I frequently ride. One car was hanging back behind me, waiting for oncoming traffic to clear, then began to go around just as a punk on a mountain bike was heading right at me, riding facing traffic.

As we all passed, I said "What are you doing on the wrong side of the road???" He immediately began yelling at me, claiming he knew what he was doing, and that I was on the wrong side of the road.

That seems like a lot of dialog "as we... passed". I usually only

have time for, "expletive deleted!" - if that.

Moreover, how did it play out? Personally, when that happens to me

(and it does), I usually shoulder check to see if I can move out and

give this salmon the gutter; if not, I stay right and let him veer

into traffic (or more usually up onto the sidewalk).

I already knew I couldn't move over. I had been glancing at the car just behind in my mirror, and I heard him moving forward just as the punk passed me. Those few blocks have a curb, but no sidewalk.

And yes, we had time for more dialog, because when I yelled something back at him, he turned around and tried to catch up to me, yelling as he was riding, something like "What are you going to tell me??? Come on, tell me!!" aggressive as hell and apparently itching for a fight. I had been riding slow (especially because of the near-head-on conflict), but I raised my speed to stay just in front of him (which required only about 18 mph). He followed me, yelling, for about a city block. Muscular, heavily tattooed, sort of scrappy clothes, and loudly aggressive and obnoxious. A punk.

What, you mean *other* people react to your supercilious Hall Monitor

crap like I do? Ithought it was just me.

Not "other people," Dan. One other person. This incident was absolutely unique.

I've said "You're on the wrong side of the road!" to a fair number of salmon riders over the years. Most said nothing. Some have said "It's so I can see the cars coming." One woman said "I'm sorry, I know, I'll get over." I recall (maybe astonishingly) only one "**** you." But I've never had anyone else yell at me then turn around and chase me.


Remember my story about "Aunt Bea" with the flowery hat and her trike
parading down the main road in the farming community? Well, just the
other day I'm coming through the same stretch of road, notice cars
coming to a complete stop. What is it this time? A whale of a lady
salmon riding her crappy MTB the wrong way up the lane - both hands on
the same side of the bars trying to unscrew the cap on her soda.

On May 4, 8:42 pm, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sat, 04 May 2013 20:48:14 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
But they are still dead. Your skills are admirable. I
sincerely hope you do not find yourself in a similar
situation where rider skill is simply not a factor.

Not even staying at home on your sofa will save you from reckless
drivers. When I lived in New York, there were two instances of cars
crashing through walls within walking distance of my house. In
neither case were there fatalities -- in the first case because a man
stopped to talk to a friend on his way back from the rest room, in the
second because the boy who normally slept in the room closest to the
road wasn't home.

The contractor who winched the house back onto its foundation and
repaired the crushed sleeping porch is reported to have said that what
appeared to be brick facing was really brick foundation wall -- all
the way up.

Despite these incidents, I always looked both ways before crossing the
road to pick up my mail.


It's that "inverse lottery" that Peter spoke of.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...6fe30024ca7ca1

"Get it while you can."

On May 4, 2:53 pm, wrote:
On Saturday, May 4, 2013 5:15:02 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:
On May 4, 2:07 pm, wrote:

On Saturday, May 4, 2013 2:51:50 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:

On May 2, 8:14 pm, wrote:

On Thursday, May 2, 2013 9:02:09 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Whilst the article is interesting it's the comments below it that really get me thinking. It's amazing how many people think that bicyclists do NOT belong on the roads. Also interesting how many bicyclists delight in flaunting the Rules of the Road whenever it pleases tthem.

Yep. Two days ago, I was on a narrow-ish two lane street that I frequently ride. One car was hanging back behind me, waiting for oncoming traffic to clear, then began to go around just as a punk on a mountain bike was heading right at me, riding facing traffic.

As we all passed, I said "What are you doing on the wrong side of the road???" He immediately began yelling at me, claiming he knew what he was doing, and that I was on the wrong side of the road.

That seems like a lot of dialog "as we... passed". I usually only

have time for, "expletive deleted!" - if that.

Moreover, how did it play out? Personally, when that happens to me

(and it does), I usually shoulder check to see if I can move out and

give this salmon the gutter; if not, I stay right and let him veer

into traffic (or more usually up onto the sidewalk).

I already knew I couldn't move over. I had been glancing at the car just behind in my mirror, and I heard him moving forward just as the punk passed me. Those few blocks have a curb, but no sidewalk.

And yes, we had time for more dialog, because when I yelled something back at him, he turned around and tried to catch up to me, yelling as he was riding, something like "What are you going to tell me??? Come on, tell me!!" aggressive as hell and apparently itching for a fight. I had been riding slow (especially because of the near-head-on conflict), but I raised my speed to stay just in front of him (which required only about 18 mph). He followed me, yelling, for about a city block. Muscular, heavily tattooed, sort of scrappy clothes, and loudly aggressive and obnoxious. A punk.

What, you mean *other* people react to your supercilious Hall Monitor

crap like I do? Ithought it was just me.

Not "other people," Dan. One other person. This incident was absolutely unique.

I've said "You're on the wrong side of the road!" to a fair number of salmon riders over the years. Most said nothing. Some have said "It's so I can see the cars coming." One woman said "I'm sorry, I know, I'll get over." I recall (maybe astonishingly) only one "**** you." But I've never had anyone else yell at me then turn around and chase me.

Makes me seriously wonder what chemicals were in this guy's bloodstream.

(Perhaps you'll say that's all good, too - that crack contributes to chaos, and chaos is good?)


Actually, I'd say that crack contributes to rather extreme
predictability. Once again, you're out of your depth.

On May 4, 10:01 pm, Dan O wrote:
On May 4, 2:53 pm, wrote:



On Saturday, May 4, 2013 5:15:02 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:
On May 4, 2:07 pm, wrote:

On Saturday, May 4, 2013 2:51:50 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:

On May 2, 8:14 pm, wrote:

On Thursday, May 2, 2013 9:02:09 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Whilst the article is interesting it's the comments below it that really get me thinking. It's amazing how many people think that bicyclists do NOT belong on the roads. Also interesting how many bicyclists delight in flaunting the Rules of the Road whenever it pleases tthem.

Yep. Two days ago, I was on a narrow-ish two lane street that I frequently ride. One car was hanging back behind me, waiting for oncoming traffic to clear, then began to go around just as a punk on a mountain bike was heading right at me, riding facing traffic.

As we all passed, I said "What are you doing on the wrong side of the road???" He immediately began yelling at me, claiming he knew what he was doing, and that I was on the wrong side of the road.

That seems like a lot of dialog "as we... passed". I usually only

have time for, "expletive deleted!" - if that.

Moreover, how did it play out? Personally, when that happens to me

(and it does), I usually shoulder check to see if I can move out and

give this salmon the gutter; if not, I stay right and let him veer

into traffic (or more usually up onto the sidewalk).

I already knew I couldn't move over. I had been glancing at the car just behind in my mirror, and I heard him moving forward just as the punk passed me. Those few blocks have a curb, but no sidewalk.

And yes, we had time for more dialog, because when I yelled something back at him, he turned around and tried to catch up to me, yelling as he was riding, something like "What are you going to tell me??? Come on, tell me!!" aggressive as hell and apparently itching for a fight. I had been riding slow (especially because of the near-head-on conflict), but I raised my speed to stay just in front of him (which required only about 18 mph). He followed me, yelling, for about a city block. Muscular, heavily tattooed, sort of scrappy clothes, and loudly aggressive and obnoxious. A punk.

What, you mean *other* people react to your supercilious Hall Monitor

crap like I do? Ithought it was just me.

Not "other people," Dan. One other person. This incident was absolutely unique.

I've said "You're on the wrong side of the road!" to a fair number of salmon riders over the years. Most said nothing. Some have said "It's so I can see the cars coming." One woman said "I'm sorry, I know, I'll get over." I recall (maybe astonishingly) only one "**** you." But I've never had anyone else yell at me then turn around and chase me.

Makes me seriously wonder what chemicals were in this guy's bloodstream..

(Perhaps you'll say that's all good, too - that crack contributes to chaos, and chaos is good?)

Actually, I'd say that crack contributes to rather extreme
predictability. Once again, you're out of your depth.

Must be past bedtime in Ohio. Boy, this is legendary OT stuff.

On Sat, 04 May 2013 16:51:21 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

What should this rider have done differently?
http://preview.tinyurl.com/dxunqmd

Purple shorts?
--
davethedave