STEEL/CF FRAME ESSAY

http://reviews.roadbikereview.com/wh...and-not-carbon


A few more minutes at Pashley....

On Jun 2, 7:29 pm, datakoll wrote:
http://reviews.roadbikereview.com/wh...ing-steel-and-...

A few more minutes at Pashley....

A good argument, and the author has a knack for just the right humor.

I'm in a different place, though, in that I wouldn't go for a custom
21st century steel frame (unless that money tree in th backyard ever
starts yielding fruit); I'm more a ~$300 complete bike / good score on
ebay kind of guy. That Miyata 914, for example. If the money tree
produced a bit of a windfall, I might be able to spring for one of the
NOS Miyata Pro-level frames that one seller on ebay had a bunch of
(blue ones, even :-)

magazines feed off advertizing
advertizing feeds off disposable income.

that magazines offer information is secomdary to the ends

journals offer information.

butbutbut idea was....how do we transport a CF ?

awwww givemeabreakwillya ?

who would fab a bike not transportable ?

Jill Claybrook and Jimmy Carter, the moralists ?

not quiet who would build an auto not capable of stopping or destroying the planet

but moving nonetheless.

mooooooo

On Monday, June 3, 2013 7:10:17 AM UTC-4, datakoll wrote:
magazines feed off advertizing

advertizing feeds off disposable income.



that magazines offer information is secomdary to the ends



journals offer information.



butbutbut idea was....how do we transport a CF ?



awwww givemeabreakwillya ?



who would fab a bike not transportable ?



Jill Claybrook and Jimmy Carter, the moralists ?



not quiet who would build an auto not capable of stopping or destroying the planet



but moving nonetheless.



mooooooo

.........


OT. NYT offers an overview

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/op...anted=all&_r=0

On Jun 3, 7:29*am, Dan O wrote:
On Jun 2, 7:29 pm, datakoll wrote:

*http://reviews.roadbikereview.com/wh...ing-steel-and-...

* *A few more minutes at Pashley....

A good argument, and the author has a knack for just the right humor.

I'm in a different place, though, in that I wouldn't go for a custom
21st century steel frame (unless that money tree in th backyard ever
starts yielding fruit);

At least you made a good start. Most can't even get the seed to
germinate.

I'm more a ~$300 complete bike / good score on
ebay kind of guy. *That Miyata 914, for example. *If the money tree
produced a bit of a windfall,

You got flowers already?

I might be able to spring for one of the
NOS Miyata Pro-level frames that one seller on ebay had a bunch of
(blue ones, even :-)

On 6/2/2013 11:29 PM, Dan O wrote:

snip

I'm in a different place, though, in that I wouldn't go for a custom
21st century steel frame (unless that money tree in th backyard ever
starts yielding fruit); I'm more a ~$300 complete bike / good score on
ebay kind of guy. That Miyata 914, for example. If the money tree
produced a bit of a windfall, I might be able to spring for one of the
NOS Miyata Pro-level frames that one seller on ebay had a bunch of
(blue ones, even :-)

That's one of the other beauties of steel, there are so many older
bicycles for sale with non-compact, lugged, steel frames from the days
when manufacturers made them in 2cm increments from 48-64cm. Not custom,
but no need for ridiculously long seat tubes or stem adapters like you
now see with compact frames that remind you of the old Midas Muffler
commercial of "fit? We'll _MAKE_ it fit." The CF fad has helped spur the
availability of those used steel bikes--when the fad is over there will
be a lot of riders spending a lot of money to buy custom steel frames.

There are still lugged production frames such as Rivendell though when
my nephew went to a shop inquiring about one the owner told him that
he'd be better off with a custom frame in terms of cost because there
were so many frame builders in his area (St. Paul MN), from when Trek
was building steel frames in the U.S.A., that a custom bicycle would be
no more expensive.

On Jun 3, 6:53*am, SMS wrote:
On 6/2/2013 11:29 PM, Dan O wrote:

snip

I'm in a different place, though, in that I wouldn't go for a custom
21st century steel frame (unless that money tree in th backyard ever
starts yielding fruit); I'm more a ~$300 complete bike / good score on
ebay kind of guy. *That Miyata 914, for example. *If the money tree
produced a bit of a windfall, I might be able to spring for one of the
NOS Miyata Pro-level frames that one seller on ebay had a bunch of
(blue ones, even :-)

That's one of the other beauties of steel, there are so many older
bicycles for sale with non-compact, lugged, steel frames from the days
when manufacturers made them in 2cm increments from 48-64cm. Not custom,
but no need for ridiculously long seat tubes or stem adapters like you
now see with compact frames that remind you of the old Midas Muffler
commercial of "fit? We'll _MAKE_ it fit." The CF fad has helped spur the
availability of those used steel bikes--when the fad is over there will
be a lot of riders spending a lot of money to buy custom steel frames.

There are still lugged production frames such as Rivendell though when
my nephew went to a shop inquiring about one the owner told him that
he'd be better off with a custom frame in terms of cost because there
were so many frame builders in his area (St. Paul MN), from when Trek
was building steel frames in the U.S.A., that a custom bicycle would be
no more expensive.

PDX has a custom builder under every rock, and none are cheap.
http://bikeportland.org/resources/links (scroll down to the links for
bike builders).
Pick one at random -- say Ira Ryan -- $2,850 USD for a lugged frame.
Get an all natural girl-made bike -- SweetPea -- for only $2,500 USD
no fork and a three year wait for a mundane steel frame. Don't get me
going on Vanilla -- a lovely frame, I think a five or six year wait
and $3-4K USD. There are some TIG frame builders in the $1,600 range
no fork.

I do not like the ultra-compact design of some of the more comfort-
driven CF frames -- the XL being a 57-58cm with a 260mm head tube,
etc. That results in too much seat post for 6'3" rider. But I don't
need custom -- and most people don't.

I ride a conventional-design 63cm Cannondale. I bought my son a 64cm
cheap-ass Bike Island Windsor made-in-Taiwan aluminum frame -- he's
over 6'5" -- and it fits fine, although the head tube is short, IMO,
but that was easily remedied with some spacers and stem rise. That
frame was $195 shipped, which was kind of steep compared to Nashbar
$99 frames, but those ran too small. The Windsor is not light and has
a heavy carbon fork, but the bike is stiff and surprisingly fast and
climbs well -- and it's built like a tank. A steel frame in that size
would probably not be as stiff for the weight, but I didn't look too
hard for steel because even a cheap frame would have been twice as
much with no fork, and any super large retro frames would have short
top-tubes, and even that market is pretty hot price-wise if you want
something decent.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sunday, June 2, 2013 11:29:31 PM UTC-7, Dan O wrote:
On Jun 2, 7:29 pm, datakoll wrote:

http://reviews.roadbikereview.com/wh...ing-steel-and-...

A good argument, and the author has a knack for just the right humor.

I didn't find his arguments convincing. To scare you
about CF frames going soft, he tells you that older
monocoque frames feel noodly now. Even if that's true,
is it inherent to CF or is it a problem with a particular
way some frames were made? It's about like saying don't
buy aluminum because of what 1970s Alan frames were like.

He should get in touch with aerospace engineers who think
they have a handle on CF. He should tell them a couple
anecdotes about old frames going soft to set them straight.

The author tells you his sun sign in his bio.

Tom Ace

On 6/3/2013 12:27 PM, Tom Ace wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 11:29:31 PM UTC-7, Dan O wrote:
On Jun 2, 7:29 pm, wrote:

http://reviews.roadbikereview.com/wh...ing-steel-and-...

A good argument, and the author has a knack for just the right humor.

I didn't find his arguments convincing. To scare you
about CF frames going soft, he tells you that older
monocoque frames feel noodly now. Even if that's true,
is it inherent to CF or is it a problem with a particular
way some frames were made? It's about like saying don't
buy aluminum because of what 1970s Alan frames were like.

Yeah, how long before my triple monocoque gets noodly? Saturday the
only thing noodly were my quads. My 2009 bike was fine.

He should get in touch with aerospace engineers who think
they have a handle on CF. He should tell them a couple
anecdotes about old frames going soft to set them straight.

The author tells you his sun sign in his bio.

Tom Ace

On 6/3/2013 9:27 AM, Tom Ace wrote:

snip

He should get in touch with aerospace engineers who think
they have a handle on CF. He should tell them a couple
anecdotes about old frames going soft to set them straight.

Using "aerospace" in a discussion of aluminum or carbon fiber bicycles
is akin to Godwin's law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law.

Remember in the early days of aluminum bicycle frames when you saw so
many frame failures but you had proclamations regarding passenger jets
being made out of aluminum and not experiencing metal fatigue. I'm
convinced that the training material from the bicycle manufacturers
included something like "if your customer is worried about the
durability of aluminum frames tell them that passenger jets have
aluminum fuselages." Then you had the Aloha Airlines incident which was
a direct result of metal fatigue which led to all sorts of rules
regarding maximum pressurization cycles and fuselage inspections.

It's the same with trying to compare the use of CF in aircraft and CF
bicycle frames.