Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On 11/6/2019 1:10 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 November 2019 23:52:10 UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 08:00:57 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

We walked away a few years ago when we were unable to
provide any service beyond "replace entire system" to
customers with products we sold.
(...)
We're very good with mechanical, machining, welding/brazing
processes and electromechanical systems such as classic
autos and motorcycles. E-bike troubles are often not in
those realms, rather software, sensors, semiconductor
circuits, motor controller systems, batteries and
connectors/fixtures of the lowest orders.

Replace the entire system might be true if you were talking about an
eBike with everything in the wheel. However, other types of eBikes
tend to be modular and may offer some repair opportunities by
replacing modules. That's the current situation in the automobile
service business, where repairs often consist of replacing black boxes
or sub-assemblies. The off-the-street minimally trained technician
plugs a diagnostic interface into the vehicle and sends the collected
data to the manufacturers computer for analysis. This computer also
had data from all the other vehicles that might have similar problems.
The diagnostic results are returned to the minimally trained
technician in the form of a list or flow chart, where the most
probable fault is listed first, down to the faults of lower
probability. The service shop then finds a better trained technician
to replace black boxes starting with the those at the top of the list.
It's easy to see the problems with this method of repair, but it does
have one big advantage. The dealer does NOT need to hire a well
trained and experienced mechanic to troubleshoot the vehicle. While
replacing a few extra black boxes might be wasteful and expensive,
it's probably cheaper than the salary for the trained and experienced
mechanic.

eBike can, and eventually will be serviced in a similar manner. Plug
a diagnostic interface cable into the eBike. The other end goes into
a modem or computah. The diagnostic data, performance history,
maintenance logs, recorded faults, serial numbers, etc are downloaded
from the eBike and sent off to the factory service center in China via
the internet, where the factory computer determines the likely
culprits. You then get to replace the suggested sub-assemblies,
modules, and black boxes in accordance with the provided directions,
using factory approved and supplied parts. This would probably be a
good place to insert a rant about "right to repair" but I'll resist
the temptation. Sufficient to say that you have to do it in the
manner specified by the factory or you lose your authorized service
center status. Notice that the factory computer does not bother
indicating how it derived its suggested replacements, what part of the
circuitry has failed, and even a clue how it all works. In other
words, you learn nothing from the repair.

While providing service and repairs on products that you sell, the
mass market manufacturers are not going to help you. Instead, they
will design products that are difficult to repair and control the
price and availability of part and information (manuals). If you do
manage to get into eBike repair, it's likely to be as a 3rd party shop
using used replacement parts and reverse engineered manuals, exactly
as many Apple repair shops operate. They can do that simply because
the cost of replacement is less than the cost of repair.

Enough for now. Best of luck trying to find an answer to the central
problem. Where are we going to find the trained technicians needed to
repair today's increasingly complexicated electronics? If you find an
answer, I would appreciate a clue as to what it might be.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Years ago I took a television in for repair. The shop said that replacing a certain module MIGHT fix the problem. I asked them what if it didn't would I still have to pay for that module to which they said yes. I said forget that and took the television home.

I wonder if even regular bicycles are moving towards that with electronic shifting and the other electronic doo dads many people use.

Cheers


Yes.
A perusal of auto repair fora would show problems on modern
vehicles for which, unlike the neat theory Mr Lieberman
notes above, multiple pricey components, each with their own
delivery delay and labor, fail to rectify the problem.

Add to that our fragmented no-standards industry in which
the control module you think is at fault is no longer
available, "Oh, that was the old model, two years ago!
Cannot supply. Replace entire system."

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 11/6/2019 6:21 AM, Duane wrote:
John B. wrote:

You know a lot of people around 70...Five? Ten? Assuming that you are
in the U.S. some 80% percent of the population doesn't even get
minimum levels of exercise, to say nothing of developing stamina.


More useless stats googled from Wikipedia? My bike club of 400 or so has
an average age of 60.

I suspect that most bike clubs in the U.S. have average ages around 60.
From what I've seen, the big boom in bike clubs happened in the 1970s,
with new riders of "ten speeds." And it's those people plus those up to
about ten years younger that still dominate the memberships.

Younger folks today - millenials, GenXers, etc - seem very uninterested
in clubs of any type. See _Bowling Alone_ by Putnam for documentation.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/6/2019 10:20 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/5/2019 10:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/5/2019 10:04 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 12:47:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I'm not convinced that golf ever qualified as a "sport."
Even bowling is
more strenuous.

I put golf in the same category as billiards. Neither one
is a "sport."

"sport /spôrt/Â*Â* noun: sport; plural noun: sports
1. an activity involving physical exertion and skill..."

I should have used a different example :-) In fact, for
whatever
reason, there is considerable controversy over the
question of whether
or not golf is a sport.

You do walk between 5 and 7 miles on most golf courses.

Not around here you don't! You sit down in a golf cart. You
walk maybe 30 feet before and after you swing or putt.

Full disclosu I adamantly gave up golf in my 20s. I was
so frustrated at shooting in the 40s, which I thought was
terrible.

Why? Because as a young guy, I spent a lot of time caddying
for, then playing against my dad. It wasn't until years
later that I realized 40s were considered OK. Then I thought
about all the golf trophies he had around the house...Â* (He
broke par routinely.)

But then (to use a" Tom" and change the subject) is
bicycling a sport?
It can be but it is hardly sporting to ride down to the
corner store
to get a loaf of bread.

That's true. And one the wonderful things about cycling is
its versatility.

Not surprisingly, the "Danger! Danger!" crowd finds a way to
use that against bicycling. There have been many articles
that total the injuries from various "sports" like football,
basketball, etc. and bicycling. They point out that
bicycling's raw count of injuries is higher than almost all
"other sports."

Why is that so? Because the number of people and the amount
of time spent bicycling tremendously exceeds those for (say)
basketball. People ride for dozens of reasons, and only a
tiny proportion of bicycling really is "sport," in the sense
of competing against others.


I don't know and I don't have an opinion.

But there is a difference between activities with an actual objective
score or line (golf, time trials, marathons, weight lifting, bowling
etc) and interpretive activities with 'judging' which are I think more
in the realm of art or recreation.

I agree. ("... and the Romanian judge gives her a 9.6...")


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/6/2019 10:29 AM, AMuzi wrote:

A perusal of auto repair fora would show problems on modern vehicles for
which, unlike the neat theory Mr Lieberman notes above, multiple pricey
components, each with their own delivery delay and labor, fail to
rectify the problem.

A good friend of mine had trouble with his Buick recently. As I recall,
no cranking, no lights, nothing. Jump starting didn't help. Replacing
the battery didn't help. All fuses were good, etc. He gave up and had it
towed to an independent mechanic, who was similarly baffled.

After about a week, the solution was found. Seems that in the rear
bumper was a backup collision sensor (maybe radar based?) to keep you
from bumping into a telephone pole or something. The sensor had somehow
failed due to some water leakage. But it disabled the whole #@&%! car!


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/6/2019 2:47 AM, John B. wrote:
Now take your kitchen bread toaster to
a repairman... 2 hours at $30, plus tax.... You can buy a shiny new
one cheaper. A LOT cheaper :-)

That's true. Yet I have almost a compulsion about fixing things. There's
something built into me that hates the waste of throwing away something
repairable.

I'm retired, I have the time and I often learn a little something by
fixing things. If I save myself even $10 by an hour's work, I'm happy.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/5/2019 6:00 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

We walked away a few years ago when we were unable to provide any
service beyond "replace entire system" to customers with products we
sold. There's a current front page article in our industry news on that
very subject:

https://read.dmtmag.com/i/1179600-no...ew s+Audience


Lower right, "E-bike Service Can Mean Saying 'No' "

Yeah, I got that magazine two days ago. Interesting article. But the
reality is that there are really only four or five components on a DIY
system, battery, motor, controller, and sensor or throttle. As bike
mechanics expand their knowledge to other electronic systems on bikes
they're going to have to be able to also work on bicycles with motors.
The bigger issue is getting parts for all these proprietary systems. One
shop owner quoted in that article said that he'd service eBikes if the
bike owner were willing to bring in the parts.

An independent auto repair shop has to get parts for a wide variety of
vehicles, but the vehicles have the same kinds of failures to
troubleshoot. No one expects an auto mechanic to troubleshoot a
vehicle's computer down to the component level, but the mechanic can
analyze a problem with a battery, charging circuit, sensor, motor,
switch, or wiring,

On 11/5/2019 10:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

I have to explain to Engine Guru twice a year that, no, I'm not
interested in electronic ignition and yes I'm happy to clean and gap
mechanical points. I was once up on US 666 between Payson and Snowflake
3am in a snowstorm [1]. Rental truck was missing and popping. I pulled a
matchbook across the points, gapped them by ear and drove on.

I was on I-10 near Casa Grande Arizona in 1979. The points in my new VW
somehow failed. Obviously I was not carrying a replacement part, even
though I knew how to install and gap points.

I was towed to the dealer on December 23rd, and was lucky they were open
the next day. This was in the days before cell phones, but a passing car
stopped and went and called a tow truck.

It was a quick repair, but even though the vehicle was less than six
months old the repair was somehow not covered under warranty (the dealer
said the installation and part was covered but setting the gap was not!).

Electronic ignition, at least from the factory, is much more reliable
and requires less maintenance. I recall all those retrofit kits for
electronic ignition, but I'd be wary of those.

On 11/6/2019 11:24 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/6/2019 10:29 AM, AMuzi wrote:

A perusal of auto repair fora would show problems on
modern vehicles for which, unlike the neat theory Mr
Lieberman notes above, multiple pricey components, each
with their own delivery delay and labor, fail to rectify
the problem.

A good friend of mine had trouble with his Buick recently.
As I recall, no cranking, no lights, nothing. Jump starting
didn't help. Replacing the battery didn't help. All fuses
were good, etc. He gave up and had it towed to an
independent mechanic, who was similarly baffled.

After about a week, the solution was found. Seems that in
the rear bumper was a backup collision sensor (maybe radar
based?) to keep you from bumping into a telephone pole or
something. The sensor had somehow failed due to some water
leakage. But it disabled the whole #@&%! car!



A Buick dealer would say that's a feature not a bug.
Enhanced billing opportunity!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 11/5/2019 1:18 PM, Duane wrote:

snip

I used to carry spare rotor, points and condenser in my glove
compartment and was able to get things going when they broke.Â* The bad
part was that I had to do that occasionally.Â* I haven't had a problem
like that with an electronic ignition in - well I don't remember the
last time.

I had a car that used to go through alternators. It was an odd
alternator and aftermarket ones were not available. I bought one from
the dealer and had them rebuilt and rotated them.

On 11/3/2019 5:45 PM, news18 wrote:

snip

Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand.

https://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/17068/Lithium-Shortage-Expected-Due-to-Lack-of-Mines.aspx