Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 11:21:45 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:24:39 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 03:34:07 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:11:35 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 21:27:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)

This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.

Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.

Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.

Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.
--
cheers,

John B.

In keeping with the title of this thread. I don't think that E-bikes will
do much for bicycling per se. I DO think that E-bikes will do a LOT for
E-motor-biking though. Every E-bike Ive seen in my region was being used
as an Electric Motorbike NOT a bicycle.

Cheers


Yes but we?re we?re talking more about road bikes I think.

https://e2-sport.ca/product-category...bikes/?lang=en

People buying these are more likely sports cyclists trying to maintain
their levels.

That goes to show how unrealistic some people are. Put an electric
motor on the bike and gee! I'm just as fast as I was when I was
twenty...

Why not put on a bigger motor and Lo! One would be even faster than
they were at 20 :-) Or maybe an even larger motor and set records :-)
--
cheers,

John B.



Who the **** said anything about being faster than when they were 20?

No one, but someone did say, "People buying these are more likely
sports cyclists trying to maintain their levels. "

And I guessed that the "levels" would be what they were when they were
young and frisky, i.e., 20 years old , not what they were as they
coasted past 70, sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
--
cheers,

John B.



Their levels, to me meant last year?s levels before that surgery or
whatever.
Having had surgery and am still recovering I would hope my "level"
does get better.

Jeez I know a lot of people around 70 that are in better shape than that.

You know a lot of people around 70...Five? Ten? Assuming that you are
in the U.S. some 80% percent of the population doesn't even get
minimum levels of exercise, to say nothing of developing stamina.


More useless stats googled from Wikipedia? My bike club of 400 or so has
an average age of 60.

No not useless stats from google. "useless" Stats from:

The Associated Press
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and prevention
The National Health Interview Survey
Statista
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
Bureau of Labor
The Mayo Clinic

I could go on but what's the use.

--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 06 Nov 2019 09:20:08 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 11/5/2019 10:03 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/5/2019 10:04 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 12:47:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I'm not convinced that golf ever qualified as a "sport."
Even bowling is
more strenuous.

I put golf in the same category as billiards. Neither one
is a "sport."

"sport /spôrt/ noun: sport; plural noun: sports
1. an activity involving physical exertion and skill..."

I should have used a different example :-) In fact, for
whatever
reason, there is considerable controversy over the
question of whether
or not golf is a sport.

You do walk between 5 and 7 miles on most golf courses.

Not around here you don't! You sit down in a golf cart. You
walk maybe 30 feet before and after you swing or putt.

Full disclosu I adamantly gave up golf in my 20s. I was
so frustrated at shooting in the 40s, which I thought was
terrible.

Why? Because as a young guy, I spent a lot of time caddying
for, then playing against my dad. It wasn't until years
later that I realized 40s were considered OK. Then I thought
about all the golf trophies he had around the house... (He
broke par routinely.)

But then (to use a" Tom" and change the subject) is
bicycling a sport?
It can be but it is hardly sporting to ride down to the
corner store
to get a loaf of bread.

That's true. And one the wonderful things about cycling is
its versatility.

Not surprisingly, the "Danger! Danger!" crowd finds a way to
use that against bicycling. There have been many articles
that total the injuries from various "sports" like football,
basketball, etc. and bicycling. They point out that
bicycling's raw count of injuries is higher than almost all
"other sports."

Why is that so? Because the number of people and the amount
of time spent bicycling tremendously exceeds those for (say)
basketball. People ride for dozens of reasons, and only a
tiny proportion of bicycling really is "sport," in the sense
of competing against others.


I don't know and I don't have an opinion.

But there is a difference between activities with an actual
objective score or line (golf, time trials, marathons,
weight lifting, bowling etc) and interpretive activities
with 'judging' which are I think more in the realm of art or
recreation.

I had great respect for the initial MTB race organization
with a simple rule book. 'We all start here. First one
there wins.' This has nothing to do with why or how I ride
my own bicycles but it's clear and respectable.

The original "clunker" riders had a down hill race called the "repack
race" with apparently no rules at all. The quickest guy down the
mountain won :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:24:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2019 10:29 AM, AMuzi wrote:

A perusal of auto repair fora would show problems on modern vehicles for
which, unlike the neat theory Mr Lieberman notes above, multiple pricey
components, each with their own delivery delay and labor, fail to
rectify the problem.

A good friend of mine had trouble with his Buick recently. As I recall,
no cranking, no lights, nothing. Jump starting didn't help. Replacing
the battery didn't help. All fuses were good, etc. He gave up and had it
towed to an independent mechanic, who was similarly baffled.

After about a week, the solution was found. Seems that in the rear
bumper was a backup collision sensor (maybe radar based?) to keep you
from bumping into a telephone pole or something. The sensor had somehow
failed due to some water leakage. But it disabled the whole #@&%! car!

When I was 16 years old my folks retired their old 1937 chevy and
bought a new car. I inherited the old car with the agreement that my
father would pay the insurance and registration and I could drive the
car but had to buy my own gasoline and keep the beast running. At the
age of 16 I could fix anything on the car. We just bought a new car
for my wife and I opened the hood and looked in and I'm not sure where
to check the oil :-(
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:28:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2019 2:47 AM, John B. wrote:
Now take your kitchen bread toaster to
a repairman... 2 hours at $30, plus tax.... You can buy a shiny new
one cheaper. A LOT cheaper :-)

That's true. Yet I have almost a compulsion about fixing things. There's
something built into me that hates the waste of throwing away something
repairable.

I'm retired, I have the time and I often learn a little something by
fixing things. If I save myself even $10 by an hour's work, I'm happy.

I'm much the same but so much "stuff" is now built with no thought of
it being repairable. A toaster with bent over tabs holding it
together. Straight the tabs and they break off :-( And where can you
get the heating coils?

I had a car air conditioner compressor start to leak and the shop says
change the compressor. I say, but it is only the seals leaking, and
the shop says can't get the seals.

I suppose from the shop's point of view it is a 30 minute project and
they get the profit for the new compressor and perhaps they are right.
What would it cost to remove the compressor, disassemble it, replace
the seals, test it for leakage in some manner and reinstall it?

As you say, now retired, like to mess with things. But the frustration
of breaking the tabs off the toaster and not being able to reassemble
it sort of takes all the fun out of things.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:41:46 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/5/2019 10:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

I have to explain to Engine Guru twice a year that, no, I'm not
interested in electronic ignition and yes I'm happy to clean and gap
mechanical points. I was once up on US 666 between Payson and Snowflake
3am in a snowstorm [1]. Rental truck was missing and popping. I pulled a
matchbook across the points, gapped them by ear and drove on.

I was on I-10 near Casa Grande Arizona in 1979. The points in my new VW
somehow failed. Obviously I was not carrying a replacement part, even
though I knew how to install and gap points.

I was towed to the dealer on December 23rd, and was lucky they were open
the next day. This was in the days before cell phones, but a passing car
stopped and went and called a tow truck.

It was a quick repair, but even though the vehicle was less than six
months old the repair was somehow not covered under warranty (the dealer
said the installation and part was covered but setting the gap was not!).

Electronic ignition, at least from the factory, is much more reliable
and requires less maintenance. I recall all those retrofit kits for
electronic ignition, but I'd be wary of those.

I installed one of those kits on a Datson and it ran until we sold the
car.
--
cheers,

John B.

On 11/6/2019 7:20 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:41:46 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/5/2019 10:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

I have to explain to Engine Guru twice a year that, no, I'm not
interested in electronic ignition and yes I'm happy to clean and gap
mechanical points. I was once up on US 666 between Payson and Snowflake
3am in a snowstorm [1]. Rental truck was missing and popping. I pulled a
matchbook across the points, gapped them by ear and drove on.

I was on I-10 near Casa Grande Arizona in 1979. The points in my new VW
somehow failed. Obviously I was not carrying a replacement part, even
though I knew how to install and gap points.

I was towed to the dealer on December 23rd, and was lucky they were open
the next day. This was in the days before cell phones, but a passing car
stopped and went and called a tow truck.

It was a quick repair, but even though the vehicle was less than six
months old the repair was somehow not covered under warranty (the dealer
said the installation and part was covered but setting the gap was not!).

Electronic ignition, at least from the factory, is much more reliable
and requires less maintenance. I recall all those retrofit kits for
electronic ignition, but I'd be wary of those.

I installed one of those kits on a Datson and it ran until we sold the
car.


Was that the late 60s Datsun 4 with dual points? Too clever
by half IMHO. Good candidate for aftermarket mods.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:18:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2019 1:02 PM, sms wrote:
On 11/5/2019 8:49 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

As an aside, have you ever noticed that the safety harpies never make
positive statements. Never "a helmet will save your life", but "a
helmet may prevent...", or "bright flashing lights may...", and so on.

It would be foolish for either government or private entities to state
such absolutes.

The NTSB in the U.S. just came out in favor of mandatory helmet laws for
bicyclists. They cited statistics of course, but of course they could
not guarantee that a helmet would save every life.

All they could do was to explain that the use of a helmet was the most
effective way for riders to reduce their chances of receiving a serious
head injury in the event of a head impact crash, something that almost
everyone knows and that no one disputes.

But despite decades of gains in percentage of helmet use, bicyclist
concussions have risen, not fallen, over 60% in fifteen years or so.
That increase completely outstrips any purported rise in riding levels.

And historic bike fatality counts don't show any helmet benefit. That
is, during the years of increasing helmet use, bike deaths did not fall
compared to pedestrians (who suffer similar risks).

Then there's the fact that it's only marketing and resulting delusions
that have connected ordinary cycling with brain injuries. Pedestrians
suffer far more serious brain injuries, both in total and per mile
traveled. When pedestrians are killed, it's generally due to brain
injury, but there is no call for walking helmets. Bicyclists are only
0.6% of U.S. brain injury fatalities, despite the popularity of cycling.
Yet cycling is demonized as terribly dangerous.

Should we try to laws to make everything safe for everyone or just try
to educate people as to the safety equipment that's available and then
let them choose the amount of risk they want to accept by using or not
using that equipment?

People _should_ be honest about the actual levels of risk, and not
exaggerate those of bicycling (which has only one fatality per 10
million or more miles of riding). Bicycling has suffered from decades of
"Danger! Danger!" whining, with concomitant demands for personal
protective equipment, special and weird facilities, super-bright lights,
and strange gizmos of every kind.

And people _should_ be honest about the minimal protection level of
products they are promoting. For decades, every helmet promoter and
promotion agency claimed they were 85% effective. Many still do, despite
the total lack of corroboration of that figure. (A lawsuit finally
disallowed its use in federal promotion statements.)

And people should be very, very suspicious of efforts to _mandate_ a
commercial product. How does that not raise red flags?

I find it interesting how things that originally were not considered
dangerous are now considered so dangerous that safety equipment is
required.

Skiing, when I was a youth, was considered a perfectly safe sport (or
pastime if you would have it) but of course people did get hurt. I
remember a fellow who was probably going 30 or 40 mph and hit a tree.
Busted several bones but no one said "Oh! Gee! That's dangerous!" No,
they said, "What was that damned fool skiing that fast through the
trees for".

This idea that it is somehow possible to safeguard people who do
absolutely idiotic things is simply pie in the sky thinking.

Bicycling seems to be now considered a dangerous pastime but an
appraisal of a number of studies shows that many, sometimes a
majority, of the "accidents" were the fault of the cyclist and single
bicycle crashes, which appear to be far more numerous than multi
vehicle crashes are generally speaking always the fault of the
cyclist.

I suggest that the secret to reducing or preventing bicycle injuries
is not "put a helmet on your head" but rather "pull your head out of
your arse", to put it crudely.

I suggest that if cyclists could be brain washed so as to obey highway
rules and laws and not ride in a manner so as to endanger themselves
that bicycle deaths could be reduced by, at least, half.

Think of it. three hundred lives saved!

And cheap! No cost at all :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 22:51:38 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

But I should make allowances. I still recall one of the longest rides I
did with friends when I was a young teen, "all the way out" to some
intersection in the country. It seemed epic, and we were totally beat
when we made it back home.

I had a chance to duplicate the ride a few years ago. It was less than
ten miles.

One day I was chortling at how impressed I'd been with myself when I
was a teen-ager because I could ride to the library and back, a round
trip of eight whole miles. Then I stopped to think: on *that* bike,
over gravel roads -- I'm *still* impressed with myself!

And with my books in a seed-corn sack tied to the handlebars, at that.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 8:01:53 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:28:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 11/6/2019 2:47 AM, John B. wrote:
Now take your kitchen bread toaster to
a repairman... 2 hours at $30, plus tax.... You can buy a shiny new
one cheaper. A LOT cheaper :-)

That's true. Yet I have almost a compulsion about fixing things. There's
something built into me that hates the waste of throwing away something
repairable.

I'm retired, I have the time and I often learn a little something by
fixing things. If I save myself even $10 by an hour's work, I'm happy.

I'm much the same but so much "stuff" is now built with no thought of
it being repairable. A toaster with bent over tabs holding it
together. Straight the tabs and they break off :-( And where can you
get the heating coils?

FWIW, I was once (in my low-income days) given a nice old toaster that had a
broken heating coil. I was able to get the wire to fuse together again. I opened
the device, unwound a coil, twisted the ends together and coated it with (IIRC)
borax powder to use as a flux; then turned on the toaster. It heated and welded
back together. We used that toaster for years.

Unfortunately, I tried the same trick more recently on another toaster and it
failed. I don't know what made the difference.

- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:01:53 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:28:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2019 2:47 AM, John B. wrote:
Now take your kitchen bread toaster to
a repairman... 2 hours at $30, plus tax.... You can buy a shiny new
one cheaper. A LOT cheaper :-)

That's true. Yet I have almost a compulsion about fixing things. There's
something built into me that hates the waste of throwing away something
repairable.

I'm retired, I have the time and I often learn a little something by
fixing things. If I save myself even $10 by an hour's work, I'm happy.

I'm much the same but so much "stuff" is now built with no thought of
it being repairable. A toaster with bent over tabs holding it
together. Straight the tabs and they break off :-( And where can you
get the heating coils?

I had a car air conditioner compressor start to leak and the shop says
change the compressor. I say, but it is only the seals leaking, and
the shop says can't get the seals.

I suppose from the shop's point of view it is a 30 minute project and
they get the profit for the new compressor and perhaps they are right.
What would it cost to remove the compressor, disassemble it, replace
the seals, test it for leakage in some manner and reinstall it?

As you say, now retired, like to mess with things. But the frustration
of breaking the tabs off the toaster and not being able to reassemble
it sort of takes all the fun out of things.
--
cheers,

John B.

I see this happening around here where are charging $40.00 for labour. With a lot of bicycle things it's cheaper to replace them than to get a shop to try and fix them.

I'm really glad that all my components are user serviceable.

Cheers