Will e-bikes expand cycling?

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 14:25:49 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, 6 November 2019 13:03:04 UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 11/5/2019 8:49 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

As an aside, have you ever noticed that the safety harpies never make
positive statements. Never "a helmet will save your life", but "a
helmet may prevent...", or "bright flashing lights may...", and so on.

It would be foolish for either government or private entities to state
such absolutes.

The NTSB in the U.S. just came out in favor of mandatory helmet laws for
bicyclists. They cited statistics of course, but of course they could
not guarantee that a helmet would save every life.

All they could do was to explain that the use of a helmet was the most
effective way for riders to reduce their chances of receiving a serious
head injury in the event of a head impact crash, something that almost
everyone knows and that no one disputes. Adults can choose not to use
certain safety equipment, and some do so knowing the risks.

Should we try to laws to make everything safe for everyone or just try
to educate people as to the safety equipment that's available and then
let them choose the amount of risk they want to accept by using or not
using that equipment?

At the risk of starting yet another Helmet war I'll say this. The standard tests that a bicycle helmet must pass in order to be certified are abysmally low and apparently do not include ANY TESTING OF SIDE IMPACTS. I had a helmet that was hooked over my handlebar and that helmet fell and hit the tile floor in my apartment. I was very surprised to see a large piece broken off the side of the helmet on the floor when I picked up the helmet.

Why mandate or even encourage the use of something that has such low standards to pass? Unless of course the main goal is to sell something and not to really make people safer? This includes DRLs and helmets.

Cheers

Some years ago I wrote something about helmets and some one replied
that what was important to him was that it was light and was cool.

And I suspect that thinking, of that sort, was what determined bicycle
helmet design.

You might want to view https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z76EZo7N2Ik
for a explanation of the testing of a Jockey's helmet and compare it
with how a bicycle helmet is tested.

I picked jockey's helmet for comparison as race horses, particularly
steeplechasers run at about 30 mph, similar to bicycle speeds.

--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 06 Nov 2019 19:42:28 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 11/6/2019 7:20 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:41:46 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/5/2019 10:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:

snip

I have to explain to Engine Guru twice a year that, no, I'm not
interested in electronic ignition and yes I'm happy to clean and gap
mechanical points. I was once up on US 666 between Payson and Snowflake
3am in a snowstorm [1]. Rental truck was missing and popping. I pulled a
matchbook across the points, gapped them by ear and drove on.

I was on I-10 near Casa Grande Arizona in 1979. The points in my new VW
somehow failed. Obviously I was not carrying a replacement part, even
though I knew how to install and gap points.

I was towed to the dealer on December 23rd, and was lucky they were open
the next day. This was in the days before cell phones, but a passing car
stopped and went and called a tow truck.

It was a quick repair, but even though the vehicle was less than six
months old the repair was somehow not covered under warranty (the dealer
said the installation and part was covered but setting the gap was not!).

Electronic ignition, at least from the factory, is much more reliable
and requires less maintenance. I recall all those retrofit kits for
electronic ignition, but I'd be wary of those.

I installed one of those kits on a Datson and it ran until we sold the
car.


Was that the late 60s Datsun 4 with dual points? Too clever
by half IMHO. Good candidate for aftermarket mods.

Yes, and initially it didn't run very well. I had it serviced at the
Datson place and mentioned this to the mechanic and he tells me that
you can disconnect this wire and run on one set of points and it will
run better but it will have a bit more contamination.... so I
disconnected the wire :-)

From what I was told the duel points had some logic behind them as
they allowed a rather large difference in timing between power and
idle or coasting. But as you say, too clever by half as the engine ran
better with one set of points disconnected :-)

Later I was either given or found a pointless set and installed that
and never had a single problem with it.

--
cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 07 Nov 2019 08:01:49 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:28:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2019 2:47 AM, John B. wrote:
Now take your kitchen bread toaster to
a repairman... 2 hours at $30, plus tax.... You can buy a shiny new
one cheaper. A LOT cheaper :-)

That's true. Yet I have almost a compulsion about fixing things. There's
something built into me that hates the waste of throwing away something
repairable.

I'm retired, I have the time and I often learn a little something by
fixing things. If I save myself even $10 by an hour's work, I'm happy.

I'm much the same but so much "stuff" is now built with no thought of it
being repairable. A toaster with bent over tabs holding it together.
Straight the tabs and they break off :-( And where can you get the
heating coils?

I had a car air conditioner compressor start to leak and the shop says
change the compressor. I say, but it is only the seals leaking, and the
shop says can't get the seals.

I suppose from the shop's point of view it is a 30 minute project and
they get the profit for the new compressor and perhaps they are right.
What would it cost to remove the compressor, disassemble it, replace the
seals, test it for leakage in some manner and reinstall it?

As you say, now retired, like to mess with things. But the frustration
of breaking the tabs off the toaster and not being able to reassemble it
sort of takes all the fun out of things.

I've found that a lot of stuff goes together ONCE.
Open it up, if you can, fix it and examine myriad ways of fastening
together.

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 19:14:31 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019 at 8:01:53 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:28:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 11/6/2019 2:47 AM, John B. wrote:
Now take your kitchen bread toaster to
a repairman... 2 hours at $30, plus tax.... You can buy a shiny new
one cheaper. A LOT cheaper :-)

That's true. Yet I have almost a compulsion about fixing things. There's
something built into me that hates the waste of throwing away something
repairable.

I'm retired, I have the time and I often learn a little something by
fixing things. If I save myself even $10 by an hour's work, I'm happy.

I'm much the same but so much "stuff" is now built with no thought of
it being repairable. A toaster with bent over tabs holding it
together. Straight the tabs and they break off :-( And where can you
get the heating coils?

FWIW, I was once (in my low-income days) given a nice old toaster that had a
broken heating coil. I was able to get the wire to fuse together again. I opened
the device, unwound a coil, twisted the ends together and coated it with (IIRC)
borax powder to use as a flux; then turned on the toaster. It heated and welded
back together. We used that toaster for years.

Unfortunately, I tried the same trick more recently on another toaster and it
failed. I don't know what made the difference.


I read that today's toasters heating coils are nichrome wire which is
an alloy of nickel and chromium and one article recommended using
silver solder, and flux, to join nichrome wire.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 20:09:37 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:01:53 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:28:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2019 2:47 AM, John B. wrote:
Now take your kitchen bread toaster to
a repairman... 2 hours at $30, plus tax.... You can buy a shiny new
one cheaper. A LOT cheaper :-)

That's true. Yet I have almost a compulsion about fixing things. There's
something built into me that hates the waste of throwing away something
repairable.

I'm retired, I have the time and I often learn a little something by
fixing things. If I save myself even $10 by an hour's work, I'm happy.

I'm much the same but so much "stuff" is now built with no thought of
it being repairable. A toaster with bent over tabs holding it
together. Straight the tabs and they break off :-( And where can you
get the heating coils?

I had a car air conditioner compressor start to leak and the shop says
change the compressor. I say, but it is only the seals leaking, and
the shop says can't get the seals.

I suppose from the shop's point of view it is a 30 minute project and
they get the profit for the new compressor and perhaps they are right.
What would it cost to remove the compressor, disassemble it, replace
the seals, test it for leakage in some manner and reinstall it?

As you say, now retired, like to mess with things. But the frustration
of breaking the tabs off the toaster and not being able to reassemble
it sort of takes all the fun out of things.
--
cheers,

John B.

I see this happening around here where are charging $40.00 for labour. With a lot of bicycle things it's cheaper to replace them than to get a shop to try and fix them.

Well, a guy got a $4,000 bicycle, as someone here bragged, shouldn't
mind paying a paltry $40 to have his bike fixed :-)


I'm really glad that all my components are user serviceable.

Cheers
--
cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, 7 November 2019 01:34:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 20:09:37 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:01:53 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:28:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2019 2:47 AM, John B. wrote:
Now take your kitchen bread toaster to
a repairman... 2 hours at $30, plus tax.... You can buy a shiny new
one cheaper. A LOT cheaper :-)

That's true. Yet I have almost a compulsion about fixing things. There's
something built into me that hates the waste of throwing away something
repairable.

I'm retired, I have the time and I often learn a little something by
fixing things. If I save myself even $10 by an hour's work, I'm happy.

I'm much the same but so much "stuff" is now built with no thought of
it being repairable. A toaster with bent over tabs holding it
together. Straight the tabs and they break off :-( And where can you
get the heating coils?

I had a car air conditioner compressor start to leak and the shop says
change the compressor. I say, but it is only the seals leaking, and
the shop says can't get the seals.

I suppose from the shop's point of view it is a 30 minute project and
they get the profit for the new compressor and perhaps they are right.
What would it cost to remove the compressor, disassemble it, replace
the seals, test it for leakage in some manner and reinstall it?

As you say, now retired, like to mess with things. But the frustration
of breaking the tabs off the toaster and not being able to reassemble
it sort of takes all the fun out of things.
--
cheers,

John B.

I see this happening around here where are charging $40.00 for labour. With a lot of bicycle things it's cheaper to replace them than to get a shop to try and fix them.

Well, a guy got a $4,000 bicycle, as someone here bragged, shouldn't
mind paying a paltry $40 to have his bike fixed :-)


I'm really glad that all my components are user serviceable.

Cheers
--
cheers,

John B.

Perhaps the guy who bought the $4,000.00 bicycle doesn't have anything left over to pay for anything else? Maybe he's still making payments on the bicycle. LOL

Or perhaps the guy is just telling us things he wishes were true?

Cheers

John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 11:21:45 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:24:39 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 03:34:07 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:11:35 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 21:27:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)

This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.

Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.

Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.

Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.
--
cheers,

John B.

In keeping with the title of this thread. I don't think that E-bikes will
do much for bicycling per se. I DO think that E-bikes will do a LOT for
E-motor-biking though. Every E-bike Ive seen in my region was being used
as an Electric Motorbike NOT a bicycle.

Cheers


Yes but we?re we?re talking more about road bikes I think.

https://e2-sport.ca/product-category...bikes/?lang=en

People buying these are more likely sports cyclists trying to maintain
their levels.

That goes to show how unrealistic some people are. Put an electric
motor on the bike and gee! I'm just as fast as I was when I was
twenty...

Why not put on a bigger motor and Lo! One would be even faster than
they were at 20 :-) Or maybe an even larger motor and set records :-)
--
cheers,

John B.



Who the **** said anything about being faster than when they were 20?

No one, but someone did say, "People buying these are more likely
sports cyclists trying to maintain their levels. "

And I guessed that the "levels" would be what they were when they were
young and frisky, i.e., 20 years old , not what they were as they
coasted past 70, sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
--
cheers,

John B.



Their levels, to me meant last year?s levels before that surgery or
whatever.
Having had surgery and am still recovering I would hope my "level"
does get better.

Jeez I know a lot of people around 70 that are in better shape than that.

You know a lot of people around 70...Five? Ten? Assuming that you are
in the U.S. some 80% percent of the population doesn't even get
minimum levels of exercise, to say nothing of developing stamina.


More useless stats googled from Wikipedia? My bike club of 400 or so has
an average age of 60.

No not useless stats from google. "useless" Stats from:

The Associated Press
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and prevention
The National Health Interview Survey
Statista
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
Bureau of Labor
The Mayo Clinic

I could go on but what's the use.

--
cheers,

John B.



All of them useless in determining the age of cyclists in my bike club.

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 7 November 2019 01:34:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 20:09:37 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:01:53 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:28:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2019 2:47 AM, John B. wrote:
Now take your kitchen bread toaster to
a repairman... 2 hours at $30, plus tax.... You can buy a shiny new
one cheaper. A LOT cheaper :-)

That's true. Yet I have almost a compulsion about fixing things. There's
something built into me that hates the waste of throwing away something
repairable.

I'm retired, I have the time and I often learn a little something by
fixing things. If I save myself even $10 by an hour's work, I'm happy.

I'm much the same but so much "stuff" is now built with no thought of
it being repairable. A toaster with bent over tabs holding it
together. Straight the tabs and they break off :-( And where can you
get the heating coils?

I had a car air conditioner compressor start to leak and the shop says
change the compressor. I say, but it is only the seals leaking, and
the shop says can't get the seals.

I suppose from the shop's point of view it is a 30 minute project and
they get the profit for the new compressor and perhaps they are right.
What would it cost to remove the compressor, disassemble it, replace
the seals, test it for leakage in some manner and reinstall it?

As you say, now retired, like to mess with things. But the frustration
of breaking the tabs off the toaster and not being able to reassemble
it sort of takes all the fun out of things.
--
cheers,

John B.

I see this happening around here where are charging $40.00 for labour.
With a lot of bicycle things it's cheaper to replace them than to get a
shop to try and fix them.

Well, a guy got a $4,000 bicycle, as someone here bragged, shouldn't
mind paying a paltry $40 to have his bike fixed :-)


I'm really glad that all my components are user serviceable.

Cheers
--
cheers,

John B.

Perhaps the guy who bought the $4,000.00 bicycle doesn't have anything
left over to pay for anything else? Maybe he's still making payments on the bicycle. LOL


Don’t remember anyone here bragging about a $4000 bike.

Or perhaps the guy is just telling us things he wishes were true?


Cheers

On Thursday, 7 November 2019 06:18:18 UTC-5, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, 7 November 2019 01:34:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 20:09:37 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:01:53 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:28:23 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/6/2019 2:47 AM, John B. wrote:
Now take your kitchen bread toaster to
a repairman... 2 hours at $30, plus tax.... You can buy a shiny new
one cheaper. A LOT cheaper :-)

That's true. Yet I have almost a compulsion about fixing things. There's
something built into me that hates the waste of throwing away something
repairable.

I'm retired, I have the time and I often learn a little something by
fixing things. If I save myself even $10 by an hour's work, I'm happy.

I'm much the same but so much "stuff" is now built with no thought of
it being repairable. A toaster with bent over tabs holding it
together. Straight the tabs and they break off :-( And where can you
get the heating coils?

I had a car air conditioner compressor start to leak and the shop says
change the compressor. I say, but it is only the seals leaking, and
the shop says can't get the seals.

I suppose from the shop's point of view it is a 30 minute project and
they get the profit for the new compressor and perhaps they are right.

On Thursday, November 7, 2019 at 11:18:18 AM UTC, Duane wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 11:21:45 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:24:39 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 03:34:07 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:11:35 -0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, 3 November 2019 21:27:16 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 01:45:33 -0000 (UTC), news18
wrote:

On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:37:59 -0700, wb6dwp wrote:


(Apparently electric motors like to spin fast and are more efficient at
high rpm.)

This is why I've only vaguely followed e-bikes for decades. They were of
no use to slow riders. The only result of riding slow would be to burn
out the batteries from high discharge rates.

Internal combustion vehicles suffer from the same malady. Thus the
"transmission" fitted to nearly all of them. Machinery using
electrical motors almost invariably use a speed reduction system of
some sort to reduce the high motor rpm to a lower speed that can be
utilized by the machinery.

The problem is solvable :-)

Or to be more accurate "the problem has been solved" see
https://electrek.co/2019/04/21/elect...ctric-bicycle/




The there are lots of great battery articles and howtos, etc.. there as
well. The 21700 Tesla Li-ion cell appears to be making inroads along w/
the usual 18650 battery format technology.

Pricing will be interesting as a new local lithium miner has just moth
balled their mine claiming lack of demand. The last time I priced lithum
batteries for a project, it was $30K for lead and $300K for lithium, if i
could get them. The usual battery snake oil seems to have shifted to
thier sale now.


A few years ago during the latest gas crunch I thought I saw $5/gallon
gas on the horizon, so I bought a mid-drive kit from an Australian
company called "Elation".
250W motor, 10 AH 48V system. They have since gone out of business.

......
I find the 250watt motor will give me a steady 13-14mph or so on the
flat just for how it performs. The elation kit was throttle only, hot
pedal assist.

Over here, the mania, including bicycle bodies, screams pedelec only, but
a reading of the legislation does not say that. which is why eleation
might have shut up shop as the various states have now adopted the same
laws across tha nation,

(a lot of the European offerings also appear to be pedal assist only, no
throttle. Some have throttles also, I think..

The hint on pedelecs was to use a lower gear so the sensor that drove the
motor was fooled by the chain ring rotating. That was in reply to someone
who posted on a local forum that they had pushed(walked) a pedelec hire
trike for miles whenthe chain broke .He was told he should have just sat
on it and rotated the pedals.

That advice/hint would depend on the sensor still being based on crank
rotation and not some sensor pedalling

Anyway, lots of fun reading at "electricbike DOT com".

Sounds like a very useful site from your comments. Thanks.
--
cheers,

John B.

In keeping with the title of this thread. I don't think that E-bikes will
do much for bicycling per se. I DO think that E-bikes will do a LOT for
E-motor-biking though. Every E-bike Ive seen in my region was being used
as an Electric Motorbike NOT a bicycle.

Cheers


Yes but we?re we?re talking more about road bikes I think.

https://e2-sport.ca/product-category...bikes/?lang=en

People buying these are more likely sports cyclists trying to maintain
their levels.

That goes to show how unrealistic some people are. Put an electric
motor on the bike and gee! I'm just as fast as I was when I was
twenty...

Why not put on a bigger motor and Lo! One would be even faster than
they were at 20 :-) Or maybe an even larger motor and set records :-)
--
cheers,

John B.



Who the **** said anything about being faster than when they were 20?

No one, but someone did say, "People buying these are more likely
sports cyclists trying to maintain their levels. "

And I guessed that the "levels" would be what they were when they were
young and frisky, i.e., 20 years old , not what they were as they
coasted past 70, sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything..
--
cheers,

John B.



Their levels, to me meant last year?s levels before that surgery or
whatever.
Having had surgery and am still recovering I would hope my "level"
does get better.

Jeez I know a lot of people around 70 that are in better shape than that.

You know a lot of people around 70...Five? Ten? Assuming that you are
in the U.S. some 80% percent of the population doesn't even get
minimum levels of exercise, to say nothing of developing stamina.


More useless stats googled from Wikipedia? My bike club of 400 or so has
an average age of 60.

No not useless stats from google. "useless" Stats from:

The Associated Press
The U.S. Center for Disease Control and prevention
The National Health Interview Survey
Statista
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
Bureau of Labor
The Mayo Clinic

I could go on but what's the use.

--
cheers,

John B.



All of them useless in determining the age of cyclists in my bike club.

The average age of the members of my bicycle club is precisely 70, and next year it will be precisely 71. But I can't find this fact on Wikipedia. (Don't bother, Slow Johnny, this isn't a challenge.)

Slow Johnny fails to understand that there is more than one mode of thought, and that only one is correct. But I'm not about to help the petty little man by telling him intellectual respectability doesn't adhere to arguing from the particular to the general -- or is the other way round, from the particular to the general being infra dig, and will special pleading of Thai Exceptionism be allowed?

Get a life, Slow Johnny. We can look up Wikipedia ourselves if we want to know what people like you think. That we don't quote that treasure chest of ignorance and wrongheadedness should be ample proof even to the least observant that we don't care what people like you think.

Andre Jute
The pushy little man probably thinks he's clever