Shimano Hollowtech lateral play

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:37:52 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 9:39:57 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 4:31:01 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:36:13 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 6/1/20 5:44 am, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 3:13:12 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:


Did I mention why I don't like Hollowtech?

Because it can have a problem something like 2% of the times that SRM
does? Because it is half the price of Campy? Because 99% of the time
they are spectacularly great, shift nearly perfect and wear a long
time?


Half the price of Campagnolo? I just googled for prices for Shimano
Ultegra and Campagnolo Centaur cranks, and what do you know the Centaur
crankset is cheaper.

$218 vs $227

https://www.wiggle.com.au/campagnolo-centaur-ultra-torque-11-speed-chainset/

https://www.wiggle.com.au/shimano-ultegra-r8000-double-11-speed-chainset-au/


And the Centaur crankset uses the UltraTorque design, which in my
opinion is superior.

--
JS

Exactly what is that supposed to be? Is there some reason that you prefer to make things up as you go? Ultegra is the same level as Campy Chorus and as I said, it is about half the price.

I'm not even certain that Campy makes Centaur anymore but if they did it would be the equivalent of 105.

Chorus is considered to be between Dura Ace and Ultegra. Chorus 12 speed mechanical is here 1015 euro and Ultegra mechanical 11 speed is 690 euro; a 325 euro difference. With Chorus you get a gear extra and a much nicer and more durable finish of the components. They both work flawless but the flimsy surface finish of the Ultegra and also the Dura Ace components always bugged me. The smallest rub against the cranks, RD, brake levers already scratches the surface finish of the Ultegra/DA components.

Lou

Considered by whom? They are both second level group sets from their corresponding manufacturers. That Campy do not use such a steep drop in construction techniques doesn't change that.

By me having and using both Chorus and Ultegra. Today Chorus is third level btw, you have to pay attention Tom. You have Super Record, Record, Chorus and then Potenza. Centaur is also still around, on par or a little below Potenza.

Lou

On 1/6/2020 12:37 PM, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 9:39:57 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 4:31:01 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:36:13 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 6/1/20 5:44 am, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 3:13:12 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:


Did I mention why I don't like Hollowtech?

Because it can have a problem something like 2% of the times that SRM
does? Because it is half the price of Campy? Because 99% of the time
they are spectacularly great, shift nearly perfect and wear a long
time?


Half the price of Campagnolo? I just googled for prices for Shimano
Ultegra and Campagnolo Centaur cranks, and what do you know the Centaur
crankset is cheaper.

$218 vs $227

https://www.wiggle.com.au/campagnolo-centaur-ultra-torque-11-speed-chainset/

https://www.wiggle.com.au/shimano-ultegra-r8000-double-11-speed-chainset-au/


And the Centaur crankset uses the UltraTorque design, which in my
opinion is superior.

--
JS

Exactly what is that supposed to be? Is there some reason that you prefer to make things up as you go? Ultegra is the same level as Campy Chorus and as I said, it is about half the price.

I'm not even certain that Campy makes Centaur anymore but if they did it would be the equivalent of 105.

Chorus is considered to be between Dura Ace and Ultegra. Chorus 12 speed mechanical is here 1015 euro and Ultegra mechanical 11 speed is 690 euro; a 325 euro difference. With Chorus you get a gear extra and a much nicer and more durable finish of the components. They both work flawless but the flimsy surface finish of the Ultegra and also the Dura Ace components always bugged me. The smallest rub against the cranks, RD, brake levers already scratches the surface finish of the Ultegra/DA components.

Lou

Considered by whom? They are both second level group sets from their corresponding manufacturers. That Campy do not use such a steep drop in construction techniques doesn't change that.


second? *ahem*

Super Record
Record
Chorus
Potenza
Centaur

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/6/2020 1:20 PM, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:37:52 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 9:39:57 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 4:31:01 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:36:13 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 6/1/20 5:44 am, wrote:
On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 3:13:12 AM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:


Did I mention why I don't like Hollowtech?

Because it can have a problem something like 2% of the times that SRM
does? Because it is half the price of Campy? Because 99% of the time
they are spectacularly great, shift nearly perfect and wear a long
time?


Half the price of Campagnolo? I just googled for prices for Shimano
Ultegra and Campagnolo Centaur cranks, and what do you know the Centaur
crankset is cheaper.

$218 vs $227

https://www.wiggle.com.au/campagnolo-centaur-ultra-torque-11-speed-chainset/

https://www.wiggle.com.au/shimano-ultegra-r8000-double-11-speed-chainset-au/


And the Centaur crankset uses the UltraTorque design, which in my
opinion is superior.

--
JS

Exactly what is that supposed to be? Is there some reason that you prefer to make things up as you go? Ultegra is the same level as Campy Chorus and as I said, it is about half the price.

I'm not even certain that Campy makes Centaur anymore but if they did it would be the equivalent of 105.

Chorus is considered to be between Dura Ace and Ultegra. Chorus 12 speed mechanical is here 1015 euro and Ultegra mechanical 11 speed is 690 euro; a 325 euro difference. With Chorus you get a gear extra and a much nicer and more durable finish of the components. They both work flawless but the flimsy surface finish of the Ultegra and also the Dura Ace components always bugged me. The smallest rub against the cranks, RD, brake levers already scratches the surface finish of the Ultegra/DA components.

Lou

Considered by whom? They are both second level group sets from their corresponding manufacturers. That Campy do not use such a steep drop in construction techniques doesn't change that.

By me having and using both Chorus and Ultegra. Today Chorus is third level btw, you have to pay attention Tom. You have Super Record, Record, Chorus and then Potenza. Centaur is also still around, on par or a little below Potenza.

Lou


Right. Centaur has a heavier crank and calipers, otherwise
it's Potenza.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 06/01/2020 07:50, James wrote:
On 6/1/20 5:10 pm, Tosspot wrote:

Give me a cartridge BB any day of the week. Fit in 15 minutes,
last 15 years. If I worried about a few grams I'd take a ****
before riding off :-)

I tried quite a number of cartridge BBs from Shimano and Campagnolo
(square taper variety), and I couldn't get more than a year out of
them.

The newer BBs with outboard bearings like Campagnolo Ultra Torque
last me many years without issue.

Well all I can say is my experience has been the opposite. Horses for
courses.

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 11:20:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:37:52 PM UTC+1, wrote:

Considered by whom? They are both second level group sets from their corresponding manufacturers. That Campy do not use such a steep drop in construction techniques doesn't change that.

By me having and using both Chorus and Ultegra. Today Chorus is third level btw, you have to pay attention Tom. You have Super Record, Record, Chorus and then Potenza. Centaur is also still around, on par or a little below Potenza.

Super Record is a 12 speed group. Ultegra and Chorus are 11. On the Ultegra you have the ability to shift large cogs which is missing on the Chorus though I suppose that you could do that by using a Potenza rear derailleur, I'm not sure that it uses the same shift ratios.

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 12:09:11 PM UTC-8, Tosspot wrote:
On 06/01/2020 07:50, James wrote:
On 6/1/20 5:10 pm, Tosspot wrote:

Give me a cartridge BB any day of the week. Fit in 15 minutes,
last 15 years. If I worried about a few grams I'd take a ****
before riding off :-)

I tried quite a number of cartridge BBs from Shimano and Campagnolo
(square taper variety), and I couldn't get more than a year out of
them.

The newer BBs with outboard bearings like Campagnolo Ultra Torque
last me many years without issue.

Well all I can say is my experience has been the opposite. Horses for
courses.

My experience is like James'.

On 1/7/2020 1:16 PM, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 11:20:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:37:52 PM UTC+1, wrote:

Considered by whom? They are both second level group sets from their corresponding manufacturers. That Campy do not use such a steep drop in construction techniques doesn't change that.

By me having and using both Chorus and Ultegra. Today Chorus is third level btw, you have to pay attention Tom. You have Super Record, Record, Chorus and then Potenza. Centaur is also still around, on par or a little below Potenza.

Super Record is a 12 speed group. Ultegra and Chorus are 11. On the Ultegra you have the ability to shift large cogs which is missing on the Chorus though I suppose that you could do that by using a Potenza rear derailleur, I'm not sure that it uses the same shift ratios.


Chorus is 12 speed and the currently most popular setup is
11~34 with a 32x48 carbon Hirth crank (no pinch bolts).

You may prefer Ultegra, and it's a fine set, but it's not
'equivalent' to Chorus in my opinion.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 8:36:15 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2020 1:16 PM, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 11:20:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:37:52 PM UTC+1, wrote:

Considered by whom? They are both second level group sets from their corresponding manufacturers. That Campy do not use such a steep drop in construction techniques doesn't change that.

By me having and using both Chorus and Ultegra. Today Chorus is third level btw, you have to pay attention Tom. You have Super Record, Record, Chorus and then Potenza. Centaur is also still around, on par or a little below Potenza.

Super Record is a 12 speed group. Ultegra and Chorus are 11. On the Ultegra you have the ability to shift large cogs which is missing on the Chorus though I suppose that you could do that by using a Potenza rear derailleur, I'm not sure that it uses the same shift ratios.


Chorus is 12 speed and the currently most popular setup is
11~34 with a 32x48 carbon Hirth crank (no pinch bolts).

You may prefer Ultegra, and it's a fine set, but it's not
'equivalent' to Chorus in my opinion.

I agree with that. As Ultegra is a incredible deal in the Shimano line up, Chorus is that in the Campy line up although only third in the Campy hierarchy.

Lou

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 11:36:15 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2020 1:16 PM, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 11:20:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:37:52 PM UTC+1, wrote:

Considered by whom? They are both second level group sets from their corresponding manufacturers. That Campy do not use such a steep drop in construction techniques doesn't change that.

By me having and using both Chorus and Ultegra. Today Chorus is third level btw, you have to pay attention Tom. You have Super Record, Record, Chorus and then Potenza. Centaur is also still around, on par or a little below Potenza.

Super Record is a 12 speed group. Ultegra and Chorus are 11. On the Ultegra you have the ability to shift large cogs which is missing on the Chorus though I suppose that you could do that by using a Potenza rear derailleur, I'm not sure that it uses the same shift ratios.


Chorus is 12 speed and the currently most popular setup is
11~34 with a 32x48 carbon Hirth crank (no pinch bolts).

You may prefer Ultegra, and it's a fine set, but it's not
'equivalent' to Chorus in my opinion.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Well, I haven't seen any record or chorus that would take a cog larger than 28 tooth though they've strained them to 29. But you're working with the 11 and 12 stuff and although I was told that the 11 had the same limits as the 10 perhaps Campy has finally gotten the message.

But there's NO WAY that a pro could ride a 48 large ring since they're spinning out the 50-11's. I spin out a 50-11 with a tailwind.

On 1/7/2020 4:46 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 11:36:15 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2020 1:16 PM, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 11:20:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:37:52 PM UTC+1, wrote:

Considered by whom? They are both second level group sets from their corresponding manufacturers. That Campy do not use such a steep drop in construction techniques doesn't change that.

By me having and using both Chorus and Ultegra. Today Chorus is third level btw, you have to pay attention Tom. You have Super Record, Record, Chorus and then Potenza. Centaur is also still around, on par or a little below Potenza.

Super Record is a 12 speed group. Ultegra and Chorus are 11. On the Ultegra you have the ability to shift large cogs which is missing on the Chorus though I suppose that you could do that by using a Potenza rear derailleur, I'm not sure that it uses the same shift ratios.


Chorus is 12 speed and the currently most popular setup is
11~34 with a 32x48 carbon Hirth crank (no pinch bolts).

You may prefer Ultegra, and it's a fine set, but it's not
'equivalent' to Chorus in my opinion.


Well, I haven't seen any record or chorus that would take a cog larger than 28 tooth though they've strained them to 29. But you're working with the 11 and 12 stuff and although I was told that the 11 had the same limits as the 10 perhaps Campy has finally gotten the message.

But there's NO WAY that a pro could ride a 48 large ring since they're spinning out the 50-11's. I spin out a 50-11 with a tailwind.


To complement another current RBT thread, Campagnolo offers
various gearing options:

https://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/Com...set_12x2_speed

which is an inherently good thing, given humans as we are.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971