Voiding the warranty -- Dyno Redux

On 1/9/2020 7:39 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 3:20:06 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/8/2020 6:04 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/8/2020 4:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/8/2020 3:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/8/2020 1:45 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/8/2020 12:07 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The deal with dyno lights is that they are wickedly
expensive, and with a decent hub dyno, even more so. You
would think that $400-500 for tippy top of the line stuff
would get you a stadium light with cut-off. You would not
even think there would be any back-and-forth on the
subject.

This sounds similar to "Bike tires should last 30,000 miles
like on my SUV. And bikes should have complete electrical
circuits built in for horns and sirens and any other
accessory the rider wants. And why aren't spokes 1/8" thick?
If one breaks, the mountain lions will get me!"

A bicycle should be an example of appropriate technology.
Yes, "appropriate" varies from person to person. But only
bicyclists traveling as fast as cars need car headlights. I
don't understand why bicyclists demand overkill in just this
one area.

I do agree about the cut-off, though. I've been blinded a
few times and seriously irritated many more by the "more is
always better" crowd.



Huh how about that.
Also sounds similar to 'no one ought to ride a tire cross
section I personally dislike'.

I believe you misunderstand me on that point.

What I've said instead is, it's silly to design a bike frame
that limits tire sizes to the narrowest ones.

You can put a 19mm tire and wheelset into a frame with
clearance for 28s. It works, and it was done for decades.
But vice-versa doesn't work.


pffft.

I've been buying the same style 22~23mm tubulars since I was a teenager
and have run them in a good many bicycle frames without any clearance
troubles whatsoever. Only one of those frames was custom built and tire
clearance was never mentioned when ordering that.

Yes, if you prefer tires that are narrow enough, you're very likely to
never have clearance problems. But why should we accept clearance
problems with 28mm tires? That's certainly not a hellishly wide tire.
It's appropriate for lots of roads.

I tend to think of a lot of things in terms of benefits vs. detriments.
But there's no benefit to the consumer of restricting his or her choice
of tires to 25mm or less.

As long as there are plenty of road bikes that can handle 28 mm tires the slightest benefit in handling, weight, aero or even looks are reason enough for roadbikes that can only handly tires up to 25 mm.

Really? Can you quantify those "benefits" in handling, weight, aero?
IOW, got data?

Benefits in "looks" can't really be quantified, because those are
entirely matters of personal taste, which is manipulated by fashion. But
_that_ is really the entire reason for putting fork blades 3mm from a
25mm tire.

And I'll give the weirdly necessary reminder: I'm not trying to forbid
anyone buying anything. I'm trying to discuss technical features of
bicycles. Those who say "I'm in favor of everything" - or worse,
"Whatever is advertised is the best thing EVER!" - aren't really adding
much.

Look at the clearance he
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/...pg?imwidth=480

It didn't slow him down. That frame can obviously accept your 22mm
tubulars, or 19mm for that matter. It can also accept 32mm at least,
probably with fenders. It's all benefit, no detriment. Less clearance is
not progress.


No not Eddy again. He would get is ass kicked by half of the todays peleton in the TdF if he kept riding the bike, wear the clothes, followed the trainings program/method and nutricion of his era.

But would he get his ass kicked by a contemporary rider with close-set
fork blades? Nope. Close set fork blades would have zero benefit.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/8/2020 8:04 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 11:45:25 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/8/2020 12:07 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The deal with dyno lights is that they are wickedly expensive, and with a decent hub dyno, even more so. You would think that $400-500 for tippy top of the line stuff would get you a stadium light with cut-off. You would not even think there would be any back-and-forth on the subject.

This sounds similar to "Bike tires should last 30,000 miles like on my
SUV. And bikes should have complete electrical circuits built in for
horns and sirens and any other accessory the rider wants. And why aren't
spokes 1/8" thick? If one breaks, the mountain lions will get me!"

Actually, the equivalent would be complaining about a $200 sew-up that is heavier, less flat resistant and has a higher rolling resistance than a $12 clincher, but the sew-up has the history and authenticity and just plain old magic of a sew-up. My sale-table light is not the equivalent of an auto headlight, but it is lighter, cheaper and brighter than my dyno light. It just lacks the magic of not needing a charger.

Well, to return to reality: None of my dyno setups cost me anywhere
close to $400 or $500. The most expensive was the $60 Shimano hub I
bought in Portland, and mated to a ~$100 Lumotech IQ Premium. Since I
did the wheel building, it certainly cost less than $200. (IIRC, I used
spokes out of my stock.) Again, this gives me light _way_ better than
those of my night riding friends.

Yes, I could use the Oculus I bought for the hell of it. But my dyno
setup gives perfect convenience, and frees me from worries about
batteries dying, headlights forgotten at home, headlights getting stolen
off my bike, handlebar headlights falling apart when the bike hits a
bump, etc. (And all those things have been complained about here, or
experienced by friends of mine.)

My other bikes have much cheaper dyno systems, because all but one use
non-hub dynos. They work fine with modern LED dyno headlamps. But I'm
willing to upgrade the off-brand LED dyno headlamp on my tandem, if you
want to make a trade.

A bicycle should be an example of appropriate technology. Yes,
"appropriate" varies from person to person. But only bicyclists
traveling as fast as cars need car headlights. I don't understand why
bicyclists demand overkill in just this one area.

Anything over zero miles per hour is traveling as fast as a car depending on where the car is traveling.

Yeah, yeah, there are always extreme cases. That's why both you and I
always ride with mountain lion repellent, right?


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/9/2020 12:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/9/2020 7:39 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 3:20:06 AM UTC+1, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 1/8/2020 6:04 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/8/2020 4:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/8/2020 3:23 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/8/2020 1:45 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/8/2020 12:07 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The deal with dyno lights is that they are wickedly
expensive, and with a decent hub dyno, even more so.
You
would think that $400-500 for tippy top of the line
stuff
would get you a stadium light with cut-off. You
would not
even think there would be any back-and-forth on the
subject.

This sounds similar to "Bike tires should last 30,000
miles
like on my SUV. And bikes should have complete
electrical
circuits built in for horns and sirens and any other
accessory the rider wants. And why aren't spokes 1/8"
thick?
If one breaks, the mountain lions will get me!"

A bicycle should be an example of appropriate
technology.
Yes, "appropriate" varies from person to person. But
only
bicyclists traveling as fast as cars need car
headlights. I
don't understand why bicyclists demand overkill in
just this
one area.

I do agree about the cut-off, though. I've been
blinded a
few times and seriously irritated many more by the
"more is
always better" crowd.



Huh how about that.
Also sounds similar to 'no one ought to ride a tire cross
section I personally dislike'.

I believe you misunderstand me on that point.

What I've said instead is, it's silly to design a bike
frame
that limits tire sizes to the narrowest ones.

You can put a 19mm tire and wheelset into a frame with
clearance for 28s. It works, and it was done for decades.
But vice-versa doesn't work.


pffft.

I've been buying the same style 22~23mm tubulars since I
was a teenager
and have run them in a good many bicycle frames without
any clearance
troubles whatsoever. Only one of those frames was custom
built and tire
clearance was never mentioned when ordering that.

Yes, if you prefer tires that are narrow enough, you're
very likely to
never have clearance problems. But why should we accept
clearance
problems with 28mm tires? That's certainly not a
hellishly wide tire.
It's appropriate for lots of roads.

I tend to think of a lot of things in terms of benefits
vs. detriments.
But there's no benefit to the consumer of restricting his
or her choice
of tires to 25mm or less.

As long as there are plenty of road bikes that can handle
28 mm tires the slightest benefit in handling, weight,
aero or even looks are reason enough for roadbikes that
can only handly tires up to 25 mm.

Really? Can you quantify those "benefits" in handling,
weight, aero? IOW, got data?

Benefits in "looks" can't really be quantified, because
those are entirely matters of personal taste, which is
manipulated by fashion. But _that_ is really the entire
reason for putting fork blades 3mm from a 25mm tire.

And I'll give the weirdly necessary reminder: I'm not trying
to forbid anyone buying anything. I'm trying to discuss
technical features of bicycles. Those who say "I'm in favor
of everything" - or worse, "Whatever is advertised is the
best thing EVER!" - aren't really adding much.

Look at the clearance he
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/...pg?imwidth=480


It didn't slow him down. That frame can obviously accept
your 22mm
tubulars, or 19mm for that matter. It can also accept
32mm at least,
probably with fenders. It's all benefit, no detriment.
Less clearance is
not progress.


No not Eddy again. He would get is ass kicked by half of
the todays peleton in the TdF if he kept riding the bike,
wear the clothes, followed the trainings program/method
and nutricion of his era.

But would he get his ass kicked by a contemporary rider with
close-set fork blades? Nope. Close set fork blades would
have zero benefit.



Small, but not zero.
Professional races are won by a meter after 100+ miles
(which is significant to professional racing although not to
me).

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 10:56:23 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/8/2020 8:04 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 11:45:25 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/8/2020 12:07 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The deal with dyno lights is that they are wickedly expensive, and with a decent hub dyno, even more so. You would think that $400-500 for tippy top of the line stuff would get you a stadium light with cut-off. You would not even think there would be any back-and-forth on the subject.

This sounds similar to "Bike tires should last 30,000 miles like on my
SUV. And bikes should have complete electrical circuits built in for
horns and sirens and any other accessory the rider wants. And why aren't
spokes 1/8" thick? If one breaks, the mountain lions will get me!"

Actually, the equivalent would be complaining about a $200 sew-up that is heavier, less flat resistant and has a higher rolling resistance than a $12 clincher, but the sew-up has the history and authenticity and just plain old magic of a sew-up. My sale-table light is not the equivalent of an auto headlight, but it is lighter, cheaper and brighter than my dyno light. It just lacks the magic of not needing a charger.

Well, to return to reality: None of my dyno setups cost me anywhere
close to $400 or $500. The most expensive was the $60 Shimano hub I
bought in Portland, and mated to a ~$100 Lumotech IQ Premium. Since I
did the wheel building, it certainly cost less than $200. (IIRC, I used
spokes out of my stock.) Again, this gives me light _way_ better than
those of my night riding friends.

Yes, I could use the Oculus I bought for the hell of it. But my dyno
setup gives perfect convenience, and frees me from worries about
batteries dying, headlights forgotten at home, headlights getting stolen
off my bike, handlebar headlights falling apart when the bike hits a
bump, etc. (And all those things have been complained about here, or
experienced by friends of mine.)

My other bikes have much cheaper dyno systems, because all but one use
non-hub dynos. They work fine with modern LED dyno headlamps. But I'm
willing to upgrade the off-brand LED dyno headlamp on my tandem, if you
want to make a trade.

A bicycle should be an example of appropriate technology. Yes,
"appropriate" varies from person to person. But only bicyclists
traveling as fast as cars need car headlights. I don't understand why
bicyclists demand overkill in just this one area.

Anything over zero miles per hour is traveling as fast as a car depending on where the car is traveling.

Yeah, yeah, there are always extreme cases. That's why both you and I
always ride with mountain lion repellent, right?

Not extreme at all. Absent injury, I ride practically every work night during the winter in the rain, sleet, snow, hail -- and certainly the dark of night. And the worse the weather, the more technical the route to get me away from cars. I typically ride trail home, including a steep climb up a dirt path until I stall out and start walking up the adjacent 60 wide-spaced stairs (I usually make it to about stair 12 on my bike). The stand light on the Luxos puts out less light than a glow stick, and climbing the stairs in the near darkness is annoying. Even on the flattest route home, I need a stronger light to get at least some illumination on wet pavement and blow-down. I don't need a strong light on the cycletrack or on the route out of town and on many parts of the route. On some I do.

So, I was talking to my closest building bicycle friend who uses a dyno. He has TWO dyno lights mounted low -- one on each fork leg, a battery bar light and a helmet light. And tail lights (I didn't count). Gads. You could go to town on him.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 8:48:48 PM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 10:56:23 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/8/2020 8:04 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 11:45:25 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/8/2020 12:07 PM, jbeattie wrote:

The deal with dyno lights is that they are wickedly expensive, and with a decent hub dyno, even more so. You would think that $400-500 for tippy top of the line stuff would get you a stadium light with cut-off. You would not even think there would be any back-and-forth on the subject.

This sounds similar to "Bike tires should last 30,000 miles like on my
SUV. And bikes should have complete electrical circuits built in for
horns and sirens and any other accessory the rider wants. And why aren't
spokes 1/8" thick? If one breaks, the mountain lions will get me!"

Actually, the equivalent would be complaining about a $200 sew-up that is heavier, less flat resistant and has a higher rolling resistance than a $12 clincher, but the sew-up has the history and authenticity and just plain old magic of a sew-up. My sale-table light is not the equivalent of an auto headlight, but it is lighter, cheaper and brighter than my dyno light. It just lacks the magic of not needing a charger.

Well, to return to reality: None of my dyno setups cost me anywhere
close to $400 or $500. The most expensive was the $60 Shimano hub I
bought in Portland, and mated to a ~$100 Lumotech IQ Premium. Since I
did the wheel building, it certainly cost less than $200. (IIRC, I used
spokes out of my stock.) Again, this gives me light _way_ better than
those of my night riding friends.

Yes, I could use the Oculus I bought for the hell of it. But my dyno
setup gives perfect convenience, and frees me from worries about
batteries dying, headlights forgotten at home, headlights getting stolen
off my bike, handlebar headlights falling apart when the bike hits a
bump, etc. (And all those things have been complained about here, or
experienced by friends of mine.)

My other bikes have much cheaper dyno systems, because all but one use
non-hub dynos. They work fine with modern LED dyno headlamps. But I'm
willing to upgrade the off-brand LED dyno headlamp on my tandem, if you
want to make a trade.

A bicycle should be an example of appropriate technology. Yes,
"appropriate" varies from person to person. But only bicyclists
traveling as fast as cars need car headlights. I don't understand why
bicyclists demand overkill in just this one area.

Anything over zero miles per hour is traveling as fast as a car depending on where the car is traveling.

Yeah, yeah, there are always extreme cases. That's why both you and I
always ride with mountain lion repellent, right?

Not extreme at all. Absent injury, I ride practically every work night during the winter in the rain, sleet, snow, hail -- and certainly the dark of night. And the worse the weather, the more technical the route to get me away from cars. I typically ride trail home, including a steep climb up a dirt path until I stall out and start walking up the adjacent 60 wide-spaced stairs (I usually make it to about stair 12 on my bike). The stand light on the Luxos puts out less light than a glow stick, and climbing the stairs in the near darkness is annoying. Even on the flattest route home, I need a stronger light to get at least some illumination on wet pavement and blow-down. I don't need a strong light on the cycletrack or on the route out of town and on many parts of the route. On some I do.

So, I was talking to my closest building bicycle friend who uses a dyno. He has TWO dyno lights mounted low -- one on each fork leg, a battery bar light and a helmet light. And tail lights (I didn't count). Gads. You could go to town on him.

-- Jay Beattie.

You sound like you're ready for an electric bike. Did you know that one of the settings on my Bafang/8FUN centre motor controller walks the bike beside you at about 3kph? I use it to elevate the bike unto a pavement high, high, high above the road because it was built when people arrived on horses, and then up the steps to my front door. Climbs stairs, no problem; walks the bike beside you up steep hills, no problem (except that such a toquey motor you never walk up hills.

Andre Jute
Machins extend a man's reach -- Ande Jute

On 1/9/2020 8:25 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:

snip

The following are not necessarily my favorites, and your US distributors
will be quicker, but an SP dyno and a bumm IQ-X should cost about $200 total
shipped from bike24. Order pairs and sell one set to a similarly
price-prejudiced friend at $400! Careful though, the bumm plastic fork
mount breaking could ruin you if your killed or injured friend knows a lawyer.

A dyno hub is not the same thing as a wheel. How many people are going
to buy spokes and build a wheel out of their existing rim and a dyno
hub. People want a product, not a project.

I currently have dynamo wheels and dynamo lights on three bikes, my
sport touring bike, my folding Dahon Speed TR, and my utility bike. The
Dahon has a high-end dynamo light
https://herrmans.eu/products/front-lights-4147/dynamo-10038/h-black-pro-dynamo/,
the other two have Planet Bike dynamo lights
https://www.planetbike.com/store/blaze-dynamo-sl-bike-headlight.html
because they're the only dynamo lights with a DRL flash function.

The reality is that even the high-end dynamo lights are simply no match
for a decent battery powered light. For $400 I could buy five good
li-ion rechargeable lights, but since spare mounts are available for
these lights there's no need to buy separate lights for each bike
because I can only ride one bike at once.

I also bought 200 USB rechargeable lights (both front and rear) to give
away to people with no lights. Rather than pester them to obtain lights,
which most of them could afford, I just used my discretionary fund to
buy a lot of lights.

On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 13:36:31 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 1/9/2020 8:25 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:

snip

The following are not necessarily my favorites, and your US distributors
will be quicker, but an SP dyno and a bumm IQ-X should cost about $200 total
shipped from bike24. Order pairs and sell one set to a similarly
price-prejudiced friend at $400! Careful though, the bumm plastic fork
mount breaking could ruin you if your killed or injured friend knows a lawyer.

A dyno hub is not the same thing as a wheel. How many people are going
to buy spokes and build a wheel out of their existing rim and a dyno
hub. People want a product, not a project.

Do they? I ask as just about everyone that posts here has described
their wheel building experiences.

--
cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 7:32:46 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/9/2020 7:39 AM, wrote:

As long as there are plenty of road bikes that can handle 28 mm tires the slightest benefit in handling, weight, aero or even looks are reason enough for roadbikes that can only handly tires up to 25 mm.


Really? Can you quantify those "benefits" in handling, weight, aero?
IOW, got data?

Got data? Are you questioning that a larger frontal area lead to more aero drag or shorter chainstays/wheel base affect handling or less material leads to lower weight? Really? It might not be your cup of tea. In that case buy another bicycle.

Benefits in "looks" can't really be quantified, because those are
entirely matters of personal taste, which is manipulated by fashion. But
_that_ is really the entire reason for putting fork blades 3mm from a
25mm tire.

That is what you believe.

And I'll give the weirdly necessary reminder: I'm not trying to forbid
anyone buying anything. I'm trying to discuss technical features of
bicycles. Those who say "I'm in favor of everything" - or worse,
"Whatever is advertised is the best thing EVER!" - aren't really adding
much.

Pff. Give me data on the benefits of 28 mm versus 25 mm tires.


Look at the clearance he
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/...pg?imwidth=480

It didn't slow him down. That frame can obviously accept your 22mm
tubulars, or 19mm for that matter. It can also accept 32mm at least,
probably with fenders. It's all benefit, no detriment. Less clearance is
not progress.


No not Eddy again. He would get is ass kicked by half of the todays peleton in the TdF if he kept riding the bike, wear the clothes, followed the trainings program/method and nutricion of his era.

But would he get his ass kicked by a contemporary rider with close-set
fork blades? Nope. Close set fork blades would have zero benefit.

As Andrew mentioned small but not zero. Relevant for us mortals? Probably not just as for most of us 28 mm tires have no benefits over 23-25 mm tires for road bikes.


Lou

On 1/9/2020 4:32 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 13:36:31 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 1/9/2020 8:25 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:

snip

The following are not necessarily my favorites, and your US distributors
will be quicker, but an SP dyno and a bumm IQ-X should cost about $200 total
shipped from bike24. Order pairs and sell one set to a similarly
price-prejudiced friend at $400! Careful though, the bumm plastic fork
mount breaking could ruin you if your killed or injured friend knows a lawyer.

A dyno hub is not the same thing as a wheel. How many people are going
to buy spokes and build a wheel out of their existing rim and a dyno
hub. People want a product, not a project.

Do they? I ask as just about everyone that posts here has described
their wheel building experiences.

There's probably a dynohub system coming for my daughter's
birthday. Her 800-lumen LiIon light, like her telephone, is
usually discharged when most needed.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, 9 January 2020 17:32:45 UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jan 2020 13:36:31 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 1/9/2020 8:25 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:

snip

The following are not necessarily my favorites, and your US distributors
will be quicker, but an SP dyno and a bumm IQ-X should cost about $200 total
shipped from bike24. Order pairs and sell one set to a similarly
price-prejudiced friend at $400! Careful though, the bumm plastic fork
mount breaking could ruin you if your killed or injured friend knows a lawyer.

A dyno hub is not the same thing as a wheel. How many people are going
to buy spokes and build a wheel out of their existing rim and a dyno
hub. People want a product, not a project.

Do they? I ask as just about everyone that posts here has described
their wheel building experiences.

--
cheers,

John B.

I'm guessing that most people who want a dynamo hub wheel either build up the wheel themselves or they have a bicycle shop or friend build the wheel for them. I have yet to see a built dynamo hub wheel in any of the shops near me. I did see one in a city a full days bicycle ride away from me and that wheel and light combination they let me test did NOT put out nearly the amount of light I need in my night-time riding.

As far as seeing a street sign a quarter of a mile or more away goes as someone who posted here says theirs does; I have cheap battery powered flashlights that can do that but would be absolutely useless for night riding if you wanted to see obstacles on the road.

Cheers