ELECTRIC CYCLES

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/01/bu...agewanted=1&hp

On 1/31/2010 8:03 PM, datakoll wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/01/bu...agewanted=1&hp


"... Electric bikes have been a “gift from God” for bike makers, said
Edward Benjamin, an independent industry consultant, not only because
they cost more — typically $1,500 to $3,000 — but also because they
include more components like batteries that need regular replacement. ..."

When I got interested in powered bicycles, I noticed that many users did
not know what their cost-per-mile was or now it compared to a
gasoline-engine bicycle. They just assumed the electric must be cheaper
overall, and most of the time they assumed wrongly.

------

I do agree with the observation that traffic planning agencies (at least
in the USA) don't know what to do with the concept of powered bicycles
in their planning, and that simply banning motorized bicycles is easier
than dealing with them.

I also tend to view places that only legalize electric bicycles as doing
this too. Compared to gas-engine models, e-bikes cost much more and
deliver far less performance (less power, less range). If gasoline
engines are so bad, then why don't these same places ban gas-fuel cars
and trucks too? ......What these locales are trying to do is limit
people to the most expensive, worst-performing type of e-bike there is,
in what I see as an end-run attempt to totally discourage their use.

-------

I'd LOVE to see a USA federal law legalizing powered bicycles.
Right now the market is not very well developed, because there is a
patchwork of laws allowing (or prohibiting) their use. If powered
bicycles were legal in all states, I think you would see much better
products and more users in a few years, at least during the milder weather.
~

Per DougC:
I think you would see much better
products and more users in a few years, at least during the milder weather.

I've been dabbling in with a bike converted to eBike - the
rationale being that it will give me something to ride through
the winter without incurring the mouth-breathing-induced
bronchitis that I am subject to at temps below the low forties.

Pedal unassisted at moderate speed on the flats, give it a little
juice on the hills....

Funny thing: I've had to put a charger on my car's battery twice
now because it's gone flat from parasitic loads/disuse since
beginning the eBike thing.

Come summer, I figured the eBike would get hung up until the next
winter.

But now I'm starting to think in terms of riding all the way to
work during warm weather instead of just halfway like I usually
do - not really needing or wanting 2.5 hours of exercise a day...
--
PeteCresswell

bronchitis ? Graingers.com type into search box 3M 8271.
keeps insides warm, dirt out, germs out.
its the exhalation valve (seperate search term) and side seals

Flowida legalized small displacement ICE bikes

but few I saw were used as GP Cafe racers. The locals were suitable
but the IQ factor distorted the scene: as if you can't afford one at
90cc with license and insurnace then maybe you're not smart enough to
use one at 50cc without extensive training eg shock therapy.

SELECTED READERS COMMENTS FROM THE NYT ARTICLE

Search: The Atomic Zombie

Unfortunately, Illinois is behind the rest of the world. If you take
an electric bike on an Illinois street, you get arrested. I know, I
imported two tricycle electric bike from China hoping to start regular
imports to meet the gas crunch. On my first ride a cop noticed I
wasn't pedaling and pulled me over. He said if he caught me on the
street again, he would give me a ticket. I went to the Illinois Dept.
of Motor Vehicles to see what could be done. They recommended the
change of a few words in the statutes to bring Illinois into line with
the federal law. I took the changes to my representative Gary Hannig
for him to introduce an amendment to the statute. He did absolutely
nothing. I ended up losing over $3,000 I had invested in the two
trikes I had because the only place I was allowed to ride them was in
a parking lot. By the way, Mr. Hannig is now the head of the
Department of Motor Vehicles.
Many readers may not understand what is referred to in the article.
There are some 'electric bicycles' which have a motor but permit you
to (more or less easily) pedal when necessary. But these are the
minority. Most are a typical scooter, like a Vespa, but battery-
powered.

They are beautiful in design, thoroughly reliable after decades of
experience, and very useful in a city.

One thing the article didn't mention is the local price in China
compared to the $1,500 to $3,000 in the US. Here in Shanghai, a lovely
electric scooter can be had for 1,500 RMB, or a little over $200. And
even the much larger and fancier ones with very long range are only
twice that. US and Canadian prices are almost ten times our local
prices. I've been riding and selling electric bikes for 12 years and
the Pi is my favorite all time www.pimobility.com
A design for the ages, nimble as a fine road bike, dependable as a
Clydsedale and made in the USA. I've been a bicycle commuter for nine
years. I converted my Cannondale bike to electric with a Bionx kit -
made in Quebec, not China, late last Spring and so far have put on
over 1,600 miles, commuting from hilly Washington Heights down to
where I work on the Upper East Side. The motor cuts off automatically
at 20 MPH. It partially recharges when I brake and go down hill. The
battery charges in 2 hours or less plugged into the AC at home. It's
pedal assisted. I pedal all the time, but with less resistance. I love
it. It's liberating, in that I don't need to adjust my route to the
"path of least resistance", avoiding streets with steep hills. I can
stop and buy groceries - including a gallon of milk and I can still
climb the hills home without breaking too much of a sweat. There's a
great dealer in Manhattan: http://www.nycewheels.comThe New York
Bicycling Coalition, the only state wide bicycling advocacy
organization, supports amendments to current New York State Laws,
Rules and Regulations governing the operation of bicycles to allow the
safe and legal operation of electric and gasoline powered bicycles.

Please go to the New York Bicycling Coalition's web site, www.nybc.net
to see other proposed state legislation the Coalition supports. Write,
email, and telephone your New York State legislator to pass the
Complete Streets bills (Assembly bill A8587 and NYS Senate bill S5711)
during the current session. The Coalition's web site provides details
of these bills (no expenditure of state funds, among other items) and
the Vulnerable Road User bills (Assembly bill A7911 and NYS Senate
bill S5292.) Attend the Coalition's Bicycle Legislative Summit on
April 21, 2010, in Albany.

Email your State Assemblyperson, NYS Senator, U. S. Senators Schumer &
Gillibrand to have Amtrak revise and extend its rules and regulations
to allow the carriage of full sized bicycles, partially assembled and
in a sturdy bag, on its Empire Service trains (including the
Montréaler, Adirondack, Maple Leaf, and Lake Shore Limited) traversing
New York State. This change in bicycle carriage policy will encourage
bicyclists to see our scenic and bountiful State at a reasonable pace.
Participate in local club rides and major charity rides (go to the
Cyclotour Guide Books web site for a list of 180 major bicycle events
in the State.)

Bicycles are transportation! The bicycle is transportation! Oh, yes I
do own and drive an automobile (4000 miles a year and ride a bicycle
6000 miles a year.)
Nanjing has a lot of bike lanes that, in busy areas, are separated
from the car lanes by strong waist-high steel fences. These lanes are
shared by large numbers of pedal bicycles, e-bikes and pedestrians.
I'm a pedal bicyclist. It took me a while to get accustomed to the
mix, particularly as the e-bikes are often silent. (Many do make some
noise, as they are often held together with cellulose or duct tape.
Maintenance of bicycles and e-bikes seems not to be a cultural norm, I
observe! Often you can hear an approaching e-bike by the loud mobile
phone conversations by the drivers and passengers. Most cycles, e- or
pedal, have two occupants.)

After I became accustomed to the traffic flow, I became amazed at how
well the mix worked. I conclude that it is largely because no one is
travelling very fast. I believe the e-bikes are limited to about 20km/
h. And the people are generally very sedate: there are very, very few
cowboys on pedal bikes or e-bikes travelling faster than the general
flow; few are weaving around people.

Disruption to this flow is very obvious when a dramatically larger e-
bike appears (some as large as big Vespa-type scooters), or when an
actual motorcycle (say, 125 cc and up) takes to the bike lane (the
relatively few larger motorcycles generally travel with the cars; few
urbanites own large motorcycles; the small numbers of real motorcycles
appear to have come from the countryside, presumably being the base
transportation for a few of the migrant workers.)(Distressingly, one
is now seeing a few modern flashy Japanese race-style motorcycles
ridden by urbanite youths; they are very much out of place in this
large urban city.)

Bottom line to my contribution: The traffic mix (pedal bikes, e-bikes
and pedestrians) in the bike lanes including e-bikes in large numbers
works pretty well because everyone agrees to "go with the flow". This
may be due to governmental regulations about the size and power in the
standard e-bike. If the selfish need for more power and speed is
allowed to develop, then this system seems doomed.
Many are missing the point of electric bikes in the US. As a
manufacturer of nearly 1000 electric bikes, I can attest that the
buyers of these bikes are not using them for commuting or excercise.
They are baby boomers who are buying them to have fun. Do they
eventually use them for trips to the sore, bank, etc.? Yes, because it
is more fun to go to the store that way. Do they get excercise on
them? Absolutely since people tend to pedal most of the time while
riding. Are they being eco friendly? Better than driving a car to the
market. These people remember how much fun it was riding a bike as a
kid but today there is just a hill or headwind that they do not want
to fight. So, because they are not willing or capable to struggle up
some hill, they should not be allowed to ride at all? Electric bikes
allow them to get back on a bike and be a kid again. Go for it!

Saw and tried this in Beijing. It's truly amazing!

On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 17:38:03 -0800 (PST), datakoll
wrote:

I agree "electric Assist bicycles" should be allowed anywhere a
bycycle is, as long as it meets all the requirements of a bicycle.

The electric scooters are a totally different animal and should be
treeted as what they are - electric mopeds or electric scooters.

If a gas scooter of less than 50cc didplacement can be ridden with
only a car driver's licence, the electric scooter should be the same.
The same licencing, registration, and insurance rules should apply.

If it can readily be driven, unassisted, like a normal bicycle, has
the same top speed, under power, as an unassisted bicycle, and has all
the required brake interlocks etc required under the (federal)
electric bicycle laws it is an electric assist bicycle and can be
driven by anyone over the age of 16 (or 14- whatever the minimum age
for a driver's instruction permit is in the state/province) with no
licence or insurance.

On 2/1/2010 10:35 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 17:38:03 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

I agree "electric Assist bicycles" should be allowed anywhere a
bycycle is, as long as it meets all the requirements of a bicycle.

.....Except the one about "not having an engine"....


The electric scooters are a totally different animal and should be
treated as what they are - electric mopeds or electric scooters.

If a gas scooter of less than 50cc displacement can be ridden with
only a car driver's licence, the electric scooter should be the same.
The same licencing, registration, and insurance rules should apply.

If it can readily be driven, unassisted, like a normal bicycle, has
the same top speed, under power, as an unassisted bicycle, and has all
the required brake interlocks etc required under the (federal)
electric bicycle laws it is an electric assist bicycle and can be
driven by anyone over the age of 16 (or 14- whatever the minimum age
for a driver's instruction permit is in the state/province) with no
licence or insurance.

Yes but you see--the MAIN question with 30-mph no-pedal electric
scooters is,,,,, where will they get used? On many city streets they
won't be able to keep up with car traffic. So they will be on the
shoulder, in the same space that bicyclists use.

Which is all well and fine by me. How efficient are bike lanes if hardly
anybody uses them?

After all--the real goal of setting aside bicycle lanes in city streets
is to "provide an alternative method of traveling about". If that space
is only limited to non-motorized bicycles and very few people use it
(because they DON'T want to pedal a bicycle!) then it is more efficient
to change the laws to allow other "similar-speed" and "similar size"
vehicles to use it also. Vehicles which (like bicycles) are too slow to
run with regular car traffic.
~

Per datakoll:
www.pimobility.com

Wow!....
--
PeteCresswell

DougC wrote:
On 2/1/2010 10:35 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 17:38:03 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

I agree "electric Assist bicycles" should be allowed anywhere a
bycycle is, as long as it meets all the requirements of a bicycle.

....Except the one about "not having an engine"....


The electric scooters are a totally different animal and should be
treated as what they are - electric mopeds or electric scooters.

If a gas scooter of less than 50cc displacement can be ridden with
only a car driver's licence, the electric scooter should be the same.
The same licencing, registration, and insurance rules should apply.

If it can readily be driven, unassisted, like a normal bicycle, has
the same top speed, under power, as an unassisted bicycle, and has all
the required brake interlocks etc required under the (federal)
electric bicycle laws it is an electric assist bicycle and can be
driven by anyone over the age of 16 (or 14- whatever the minimum age
for a driver's instruction permit is in the state/province) with no
licence or insurance.

Yes but you see--the MAIN question with 30-mph no-pedal electric
scooters is,,,,, where will they get used? On many city streets they
won't be able to keep up with car traffic. So they will be on the
shoulder, in the same space that bicyclists use.

Which is all well and fine by me. How efficient are bike lanes if hardly
anybody uses them?

After all--the real goal of setting aside bicycle lanes in city streets
is to "provide an alternative method of traveling about". If that space
is only limited to non-motorized bicycles and very few people use it
(because they DON'T want to pedal a bicycle!) then it is more efficient
to change the laws to allow other "similar-speed" and "similar size"
vehicles to use it also. Vehicles which (like bicycles) are too slow to
run with regular car traffic.
~

A simpler approach being widely adopted in Europe is to limit the speeds
for all vehicles in urban zones, typically to 30 kph/20 mph. This
actually has a number of benefits (emissions, safety, throughput, etc.)
while virtually no downside as average speeds are typically the same or
lower already.

datakoll wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/01/bu...agewanted=1&hp

It's rather amusing to read that article, especially:

"...they cost more — typically $1,500 to $3,000..."

While I was waiting for a shuttle to the airport at Interbike I met the
guy who runs "Pacific E-Bike" a chain of stores selling electric
bicycles in Berkeley. But he also has a factory in Suzhou China that
makes his bikes, he's not reselling the hopelessly overpriced electric
bikes referred to in the NYT article. His_most_ expensive eBike is $897.

"http://www.pacificebike.com/buy.html"

He's also now selling some el-cheapo 1 speed campus bikes with a
chainguard, basket, and rack for $119. What a concept! He was a real
Berkeley character too!

Apparently he does enough volume to get container load shipments. This
greatly reduces the cost. He's probably paying 1/2 what a typical bike
shop pays a distributor for an electric bicycle after all the middlemen
get their cut.