#101
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Belt drive
On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 23:03:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 4/29/2019 7:35 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-29 16:02, John B. wrote: On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:16:27 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-28 15:07, John B. wrote: On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 07:46:33 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote: On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote: My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive to replace. So, why? Dad gave him too much money :-) Now, a shaft drive, that would be great. Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would mitigate that? Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW. That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the chain every 50 miles. It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this: http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore. Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew though the drive chain. I'd be careful ... https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all, weight doesn't matter to you. Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of breakdowns. I happen to be one of those. The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have thorn-resistant tubes et cetera. But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride,* in 20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it. No flats in 20 years? I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire to be a "breakdown" or "came loose" A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles. But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools.* Fix it with your bare hands. Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it can be done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a while. I bought a pair of Gatorskin tires, oh probably 10 years ago, and contrary to their advertised proof against flats promptly had two flats in less than 5 Km of riding. I haven't used a gatorskin since. I never use them anymore either. I found them a bit undersized, a bear to get on. The running surface is sturdy and no flats there. Also, one of them made it to a record 2500mi while no others ever exceeded 2000mi by much on the rear. However, all other Gatorskins I had failed prematurely in their sidewalls and that's what makes them unacceptable to me. As for Vee tires, I have the feeling that they are a very cheap Thai made tire or at least I saw some for sale in a store called "Super Cheap" for something like 3 dollars each, so I don't use those either. Just because something is cheap does not mean it is a bad product. No, but it does mean that it is cheap and cheap can be produced by using less than quality materials. I've been told that the cheap tires in Thailand all* made from a rubber mix that contains a lot of carbon black, which makes them harder and they wear less and thus are very well regarded by those who can't afford to buy tires frequently. Unfortunately hard tires also "grip the road" less well and have minimal traction. I do not need Tour de France level cornering performance and found them to be quite adequate for riding. Especially the MTB tires because there durability and sturdiness counts a lot more than sqeezing the last tenth of an mph out of a ride. On both the road bike and the MTB I want beefy sidewalls and so far tires made in Thailand gave me that, plus a decent number of miles in terms of wear. I really don't understand this fetish with how many miles a bicycle tire lasts. After all, compared to something like auto tires or egg beaters they are pretty cheap. How would you like it if you had to switch out the tires on your car every 2500mi? Besides, it ain't cheap: 1. SUV, four tires, $70 each so $280 total, 1st set lasted 70000mi and still had half the tread. I only replaced them because they were around 15 years old. 2. Gatorskin, $45, lasted 2500mi at which point the tread surface was at bare minimum. 3. Vittoria Zafiro, $13, 2000mi. Want more? I trust you can do the math. What percentage of your annual income do you spend on tires? What percentage would you spend if you used those oh-so-expensive Gatorskins? I have them on our tandem. I can still afford lunch. You're doing something wrong. I understand that minimum salary in California is $10/hour, at least my wife's elder sister's tribe that visited last month tell me so. The son, high school education, works part time "unloading trucks at the Dollar store" and says he usually gets 40 or 50 dollars a day. That is better than one Gatorskin a day... working part time :-) -- cheers, John B. |
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#102
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Belt drive
On Tuesday, April 30, 2019 at 12:53:36 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 23:03:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/29/2019 7:35 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-29 16:02, John B. wrote: On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:16:27 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-28 15:07, John B. wrote: On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 07:46:33 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote: On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote: My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive to replace. So, why? Dad gave him too much money :-) Now, a shaft drive, that would be great. Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would mitigate that? Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW. That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the chain every 50 miles. It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this: http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore. Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew though the drive chain. I'd be careful ... https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all, weight doesn't matter to you. Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of breakdowns. I happen to be one of those. The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have thorn-resistant tubes et cetera. But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride,Â* in 20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it. No flats in 20 years? I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire to be a "breakdown" or "came loose" A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles. But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools.Â* Fix it with your bare hands. Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it can be done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a while. I bought a pair of Gatorskin tires, oh probably 10 years ago, and contrary to their advertised proof against flats promptly had two flats in less than 5 Km of riding. I haven't used a gatorskin since.. I never use them anymore either. I found them a bit undersized, a bear to get on. The running surface is sturdy and no flats there. Also, one of them made it to a record 2500mi while no others ever exceeded 2000mi by much on the rear. However, all other Gatorskins I had failed prematurely in their sidewalls and that's what makes them unacceptable to me. As for Vee tires, I have the feeling that they are a very cheap Thai made tire or at least I saw some for sale in a store called "Super Cheap" for something like 3 dollars each, so I don't use those either. Just because something is cheap does not mean it is a bad product. No, but it does mean that it is cheap and cheap can be produced by using less than quality materials. I've been told that the cheap tires in Thailand allÂ* made from a rubber mix that contains a lot of carbon black, which makes them harder and they wear less and thus are very well regarded by those who can't afford to buy tires frequently. Unfortunately hard tires also "grip the road" less well and have minimal traction. I do not need Tour de France level cornering performance and found them to be quite adequate for riding. Especially the MTB tires because there durability and sturdiness counts a lot more than sqeezing the last tenth of an mph out of a ride. On both the road bike and the MTB I want beefy sidewalls and so far tires made in Thailand gave me that, plus a decent number of miles in terms of wear. I really don't understand this fetish with how many miles a bicycle tire lasts. After all, compared to something like auto tires or egg beaters they are pretty cheap. How would you like it if you had to switch out the tires on your car every 2500mi? Besides, it ain't cheap: 1. SUV, four tires, $70 each so $280 total, 1st set lasted 70000mi and still had half the tread. I only replaced them because they were around 15 years old. 2. Gatorskin, $45, lasted 2500mi at which point the tread surface was at bare minimum. 3. Vittoria Zafiro, $13, 2000mi. Want more? I trust you can do the math. What percentage of your annual income do you spend on tires? What percentage would you spend if you used those oh-so-expensive Gatorskins? I have them on our tandem. I can still afford lunch. You're doing something wrong. I understand that minimum salary in California is $10/hour, at least my wife's elder sister's tribe that visited last month tell me so. The son, high school education, works part time "unloading trucks at the Dollar store" and says he usually gets 40 or 50 dollars a day. That is better than one Gatorskin a day... working part time :-) -- cheers, John B. The problem is that Joerg simply does NOT realize the differences in size/mass of motor vehicle components versus bicycle components and thus the big weight differences too. If bicycle stuff had the mass that Joerg wants/needs so that nothing would ever fail he'd also need a pretty beefy motor or engine to propel the vehicle. Why he doesn't just adapt a motorcycle to pedal power and be done with all the complaints is beyond me; after all weight does NOT matter to him. Seems to me he just likes to complain. Cheers |
#103
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Belt drive
On 30/04/2019 05.53, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 23:03:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: snip I have them on our tandem. I can still afford lunch. You're doing something wrong. I understand that minimum salary in California is $10/hour, at least my wife's elder sister's tribe that visited last month tell me so. The son, high school education, works part time "unloading trucks at the Dollar store" and says he usually gets 40 or 50 dollars a day. That is better than one Gatorskin a day... working part time :-) Almost enough left over for a McDonalds on the way home. When I were a lad we were up before we went to bed, paid our employer at the end of the day, and still had enough money to pimp each other out down the docks before calling it a day! |
#104
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Belt drive
On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 22:35:17 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: On Tuesday, April 30, 2019 at 12:53:36 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote: On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 23:03:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/29/2019 7:35 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-29 16:02, John B. wrote: On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:16:27 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-28 15:07, John B. wrote: On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 07:46:33 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote: On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote: My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive to replace. So, why? Dad gave him too much money :-) Now, a shaft drive, that would be great. Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would mitigate that? Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW. That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the chain every 50 miles. It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this: http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore. Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew though the drive chain. I'd be careful ... https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all, weight doesn't matter to you. Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of breakdowns. I happen to be one of those. The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have thorn-resistant tubes et cetera. But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride,* in 20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it. No flats in 20 years? I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire to be a "breakdown" or "came loose" A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles. But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools.* Fix it with your bare hands. Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it can be done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a while. I bought a pair of Gatorskin tires, oh probably 10 years ago, and contrary to their advertised proof against flats promptly had two flats in less than 5 Km of riding. I haven't used a gatorskin since. I never use them anymore either. I found them a bit undersized, a bear to get on. The running surface is sturdy and no flats there. Also, one of them made it to a record 2500mi while no others ever exceeded 2000mi by much on the rear. However, all other Gatorskins I had failed prematurely in their sidewalls and that's what makes them unacceptable to me. As for Vee tires, I have the feeling that they are a very cheap Thai made tire or at least I saw some for sale in a store called "Super Cheap" for something like 3 dollars each, so I don't use those either. Just because something is cheap does not mean it is a bad product. No, but it does mean that it is cheap and cheap can be produced by using less than quality materials. I've been told that the cheap tires in Thailand all* made from a rubber mix that contains a lot of carbon black, which makes them harder and they wear less and thus are very well regarded by those who can't afford to buy tires frequently. Unfortunately hard tires also "grip the road" less well and have minimal traction. I do not need Tour de France level cornering performance and found them to be quite adequate for riding. Especially the MTB tires because there durability and sturdiness counts a lot more than sqeezing the last tenth of an mph out of a ride. On both the road bike and the MTB I want beefy sidewalls and so far tires made in Thailand gave me that, plus a decent number of miles in terms of wear. I really don't understand this fetish with how many miles a bicycle tire lasts. After all, compared to something like auto tires or egg beaters they are pretty cheap. How would you like it if you had to switch out the tires on your car every 2500mi? Besides, it ain't cheap: 1. SUV, four tires, $70 each so $280 total, 1st set lasted 70000mi and still had half the tread. I only replaced them because they were around 15 years old. 2. Gatorskin, $45, lasted 2500mi at which point the tread surface was at bare minimum. 3. Vittoria Zafiro, $13, 2000mi. Want more? I trust you can do the math. What percentage of your annual income do you spend on tires? What percentage would you spend if you used those oh-so-expensive Gatorskins? I have them on our tandem. I can still afford lunch. You're doing something wrong. I understand that minimum salary in California is $10/hour, at least my wife's elder sister's tribe that visited last month tell me so. The son, high school education, works part time "unloading trucks at the Dollar store" and says he usually gets 40 or 50 dollars a day. That is better than one Gatorskin a day... working part time :-) -- cheers, John B. The problem is that Joerg simply does NOT realize the differences in size/mass of motor vehicle components versus bicycle components and thus the big weight differences too. If bicycle stuff had the mass that Joerg wants/needs so that nothing would ever fail he'd also need a pretty beefy motor or engine to propel the vehicle. Why he doesn't just adapt a motorcycle to pedal power and be done with all the complaints is beyond me; after all weight does NOT matter to him. Seems to me he just likes to complain. Cheers I just checked and I see that the average auto tire weighs 22 lbs. So a pair weigh 44 lbs. And I'd guess that a bicycle tire with the same thickness of tread and sidewalls would be a bullet proof as it was possible to get. Probably last 20 years or more. Assuming, or course that one wants 22 lb wheels :-) -- cheers, John B. |
#105
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Belt drive
John B. writes:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 23:03:07 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/29/2019 7:35 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-29 16:02, John B. wrote: On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:16:27 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-28 15:07, John B. wrote: On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 07:46:33 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote: On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote: My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive to replace. So, why? Dad gave him too much money :-) Now, a shaft drive, that would be great. Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would mitigate that? Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW. That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the chain every 50 miles. It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this: http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore. Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew though the drive chain. I'd be careful ... https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all, weight doesn't matter to you. Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of breakdowns. I happen to be one of those. The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have thorn-resistant tubes et cetera. But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride,Â* in 20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it. No flats in 20 years? I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire to be a "breakdown" or "came loose" A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles. But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools.Â* Fix it with your bare hands. Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it can be done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a while. I bought a pair of Gatorskin tires, oh probably 10 years ago, and contrary to their advertised proof against flats promptly had two flats in less than 5 Km of riding. I haven't used a gatorskin since. I never use them anymore either. I found them a bit undersized, a bear to get on. The running surface is sturdy and no flats there. Also, one of them made it to a record 2500mi while no others ever exceeded 2000mi by much on the rear. However, all other Gatorskins I had failed prematurely in their sidewalls and that's what makes them unacceptable to me. As for Vee tires, I have the feeling that they are a very cheap Thai made tire or at least I saw some for sale in a store called "Super Cheap" for something like 3 dollars each, so I don't use those either. Just because something is cheap does not mean it is a bad product. No, but it does mean that it is cheap and cheap can be produced by using less than quality materials. I've been told that the cheap tires in Thailand allÂ* made from a rubber mix that contains a lot of carbon black, which makes them harder and they wear less and thus are very well regarded by those who can't afford to buy tires frequently. Unfortunately hard tires also "grip the road" less well and have minimal traction. I do not need Tour de France level cornering performance and found them to be quite adequate for riding. Especially the MTB tires because there durability and sturdiness counts a lot more than sqeezing the last tenth of an mph out of a ride. On both the road bike and the MTB I want beefy sidewalls and so far tires made in Thailand gave me that, plus a decent number of miles in terms of wear. I really don't understand this fetish with how many miles a bicycle tire lasts. After all, compared to something like auto tires or egg beaters they are pretty cheap. How would you like it if you had to switch out the tires on your car every 2500mi? Besides, it ain't cheap: 1. SUV, four tires, $70 each so $280 total, 1st set lasted 70000mi and still had half the tread. I only replaced them because they were around 15 years old. 2. Gatorskin, $45, lasted 2500mi at which point the tread surface was at bare minimum. 3. Vittoria Zafiro, $13, 2000mi. Want more? I trust you can do the math. What percentage of your annual income do you spend on tires? What percentage would you spend if you used those oh-so-expensive Gatorskins? I have them on our tandem. I can still afford lunch. You're doing something wrong. I understand that minimum salary in California is $10/hour, at least my wife's elder sister's tribe that visited last month tell me so. The son, high school education, works part time "unloading trucks at the Dollar store" and says he usually gets 40 or 50 dollars a day. I believe Joerg is an independent contractor. There's no minimum he has to pay himself, he could work all day and end up money behind. |
#106
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Belt drive
On 2019-04-29 21:49, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:35:23 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-29 16:02, John B. wrote: On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:16:27 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-28 15:07, John B. wrote: On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 07:46:33 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote: On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote: My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive to replace. So, why? Dad gave him too much money :-) Now, a shaft drive, that would be great. Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would mitigate that? Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW. That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the chain every 50 miles. It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this: http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore. Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew though the drive chain. I'd be careful ... https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all, weight doesn't matter to you. Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of breakdowns. I happen to be one of those. The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have thorn-resistant tubes et cetera. But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride, in 20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it. No flats in 20 years? I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire to be a "breakdown" or "came loose" A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles. But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools. Fix it with your bare hands. Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it can be done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a while. I bought a pair of Gatorskin tires, oh probably 10 years ago, and contrary to their advertised proof against flats promptly had two flats in less than 5 Km of riding. I haven't used a gatorskin since. I never use them anymore either. I found them a bit undersized, a bear to get on. The running surface is sturdy and no flats there. Also, one of them made it to a record 2500mi while no others ever exceeded 2000mi by much on the rear. However, all other Gatorskins I had failed prematurely in their sidewalls and that's what makes them unacceptable to me. As for Vee tires, I have the feeling that they are a very cheap Thai made tire or at least I saw some for sale in a store called "Super Cheap" for something like 3 dollars each, so I don't use those either. Just because something is cheap does not mean it is a bad product. No, but it does mean that it is cheap and cheap can be produced by using less than quality materials. I've been told that the cheap tires in Thailand all made from a rubber mix that contains a lot of carbon black, which makes them harder and they wear less and thus are very well regarded by those who can't afford to buy tires frequently. Unfortunately hard tires also "grip the road" less well and have minimal traction. I do not need Tour de France level cornering performance and found them to be quite adequate for riding. Especially the MTB tires because there durability and sturdiness counts a lot more than sqeezing the last tenth of an mph out of a ride. On both the road bike and the MTB I want beefy sidewalls and so far tires made in Thailand gave me that, plus a decent number of miles in terms of wear. I really don't understand this fetish with how many miles a bicycle tire lasts. After all, compared to something like auto tires or egg beaters they are pretty cheap. How would you like it if you had to switch out the tires on your car every 2500mi? Well, I use to change tires more frequently then that. Back when I was a high school kid working in the filling station after school. The owner used to give me any tire that the re-capping place refused so I drove on tires with the cords showing. Carried a whole caboose full of tires and got so a wheel change was a 10 minute job. Even with close-to-bald tires on my Citroen I still got much more out of them and this in a country where inadequate tread could result in a ticket. Besides, it ain't cheap: 1. SUV, four tires, $70 each so $280 total, 1st set lasted 70000mi and still had half the tread. I only replaced them because they were around 15 years old. 70,000 miles at $280? that is what? Less than one cent a mile? and you can't afford it? Where did I say that? 2. Gatorskin, $45, lasted 2500mi at which point the tread surface was at bare minimum. What sort of a job do you have that you can't afford $45/2500 = 1.8 cents a mile for tires? 3. Vittoria Zafiro, $13, 2000mi. Want more? I trust you can do the math. Sure I can do the math and in my money 45 dollars is 1,440 baht. Which is literally pocket change. It won't even cover a trip to the grocery store. And you are whining about that? Our parents and grandparents instilled a good philisophy in us. "He who does not value the penny is not worth the dollar". I know scores of people who say similar things. "What? You mind the measly five bucks of a morning coffee and pastry at the drive-thru?". Well, I do. Needless to say the folks who lived that way must keep on working until they are well north of 65 and some literally until they keel over. I don't. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#107
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Belt drive
On 2019-04-29 18:52, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 30, 2019 at 12:35:24 AM UTC+1, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-29 16:02, John B. wrote: On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:16:27 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-28 15:07, John B. wrote: On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 07:46:33 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote: On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote: On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote: On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote: My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive to replace. So, why? Dad gave him too much money :-) Now, a shaft drive, that would be great. Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would mitigate that? Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW. That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the chain every 50 miles. It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this: http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore. Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew though the drive chain. I'd be careful ... https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all, weight doesn't matter to you. Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of breakdowns. I happen to be one of those. The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have thorn-resistant tubes et cetera. But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride, in 20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it. No flats in 20 years? I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire to be a "breakdown" or "came loose" A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles. But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools. Fix it with your bare hands. Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it can be done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a while. I bought a pair of Gatorskin tires, oh probably 10 years ago, and contrary to their advertised proof against flats promptly had two flats in less than 5 Km of riding. I haven't used a gatorskin since. I never use them anymore either. I found them a bit undersized, a bear to get on. The running surface is sturdy and no flats there. Also, one of them made it to a record 2500mi while no others ever exceeded 2000mi by much on the rear. However, all other Gatorskins I had failed prematurely in their sidewalls and that's what makes them unacceptable to me. As for Vee tires, I have the feeling that they are a very cheap Thai made tire or at least I saw some for sale in a store called "Super Cheap" for something like 3 dollars each, so I don't use those either. Just because something is cheap does not mean it is a bad product. No, but it does mean that it is cheap and cheap can be produced by using less than quality materials. I've been told that the cheap tires in Thailand all made from a rubber mix that contains a lot of carbon black, which makes them harder and they wear less and thus are very well regarded by those who can't afford to buy tires frequently. Unfortunately hard tires also "grip the road" less well and have minimal traction. I do not need Tour de France level cornering performance and found them to be quite adequate for riding. Especially the MTB tires because there durability and sturdiness counts a lot more than sqeezing the last tenth of an mph out of a ride. On both the road bike and the MTB I want beefy sidewalls and so far tires made in Thailand gave me that, plus a decent number of miles in terms of wear. I really don't understand this fetish with how many miles a bicycle tire lasts. After all, compared to something like auto tires or egg beaters they are pretty cheap. How would you like it if you had to switch out the tires on your car every 2500mi? Besides, it ain't cheap: 1. SUV, four tires, $70 each so $280 total, 1st set lasted 70000mi and still had half the tread. I only replaced them because they were around 15 years old. 2. Gatorskin, $45, lasted 2500mi at which point the tread surface was at bare minimum. 3. Vittoria Zafiro, $13, 2000mi. Want more? I trust you can do the math. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ I dunno what you're doing, Joerg, but you're doing it wrong. Compare this to your expensive misfortunes with supposedly "cheap" tyres: 1. Schwalbe 622x60 Big Apples, pair, plus T19A Ultraleigt tubes, pair, total delivered to my door Euro 66 -- half-worn at 8500km/5300m Maybe your riding style or terrain. I tend to always go full bore, whatever the leg muscles can deliver. That ain't wrong, that's my mode of operation because I don't like to go slow. None of my local bike friends milks more than 2500mi out of a rear tire. None. Andre Jute The best is always in the end the cheap option Expensive does always not mean good. Certainly not with bicycle tires. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
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Belt drive
On 4/30/2019 12:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
snip Our parents and grandparents instilled a good philisophy in us. "He who does not value the penny is not worth the dollar". I know scores of people who say similar things. "What? You mind the measly five bucks of a morning coffee and pastry at the drive-thru?". Well, I do. Since you can brew excellent coffee for about 17¢ worth of coffee beans per cup, or 34¢ for a 16 ounce vacuum bottle, plus it's faster than driving to or through a Starbucks, it is such an unnecessary expense that I can't fathom doing it on a daily basis. Apparently I am not alone. We've already lost two Starbucks in my area, one new one lasted less than a year and it was located a couple of hundred feet from the entrance to a freeway. I've got no problem spending money on stuff that I want but wasting money like that is not something I enjoy. Plus it's a real time sink to stop at a coffee place and wait in line. |
#110
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Belt drive
On 2019-04-30 13:28, sms wrote:
On 4/30/2019 12:13 PM, Joerg wrote: snip Our parents and grandparents instilled a good philisophy in us. "He who does not value the penny is not worth the dollar". I know scores of people who say similar things. "What? You mind the measly five bucks of a morning coffee and pastry at the drive-thru?". Well, I do. Since you can brew excellent coffee for about 17¢ worth of coffee beans per cup, or 34¢ for a 16 ounce vacuum bottle, plus it's faster than driving to or through a Starbucks, it is such an unnecessary expense that I can't fathom doing it on a daily basis. You won't believe how many people in our town still do it, blissfully unaware that $5/workday times two people is a cost of more than $200/month. Then they also go to lunch at $10 a pop and there goes another $400. Then they "need" $50/mo/person smart phone plans, a $100 cable TV subscription, $80 for the gym, new cars every 3-4 years and thus eternally revolving car payments, house mortgaged to the hilt, et cetera. Typically those are the people who can least afford it. Is it any wonder that the average American has net zero savings at retirement age? Apparently I am not alone. We've already lost two Starbucks in my area, one new one lasted less than a year and it was located a couple of hundred feet from the entrance to a freeway. I've got no problem spending money on stuff that I want but wasting money like that is not something I enjoy. Plus it's a real time sink to stop at a coffee place and wait in line. Same here. This morning we spent an obscene amount of money at Costco on fine cheeses and stuff. Because we enjoy that. Of course, we do not buy those at 2x the price at the local store. OTOH, my smart phone costs me $25/mo. My wife's flip phone costs $7/mo, it's all she really needs. No, one does not necessarily shrivel up and die with "only" 1GB of data. I generally use less than 0.1GB/mo. No cable or satellite TV, the bikes are my gym, our cars are well over 20 years old and in good repair. Oh, and my road bike is from 1982. When I restored it the advice from other cyclists was "just chuck it and buy a new one". -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
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