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  #121  
Old April 30th 19, 11:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default Belt drive

On Tuesday, April 30, 2019 at 6:48:51 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/30/2019 3:16 PM, Joerg wrote:


Maybe your riding style or terrain. I tend to always go full bore,
whatever the leg muscles can deliver. That ain't wrong, that's my mode
of operation because I don't like to go slow.


You've been all over the map with your speed claims, Joerg. When it
suits your arguments at the time, you say you ride fast. When it suits
your other arguments, you've said you ride slow.

--
- Frank Krygowski


IF it were true then Joerg's going full bore over any terrain at all times would be a great part of why he has so much trouble with his stuff breaking.

Cheers
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  #122  
Old May 1st 19, 12:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
Default Belt drive

On 2019-04-30 15:59, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, April 30, 2019 at 6:48:51 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 4/30/2019 3:16 PM, Joerg wrote:


Maybe your riding style or terrain. I tend to always go full
bore, whatever the leg muscles can deliver. That ain't wrong,
that's my mode of operation because I don't like to go slow.


You've been all over the map with your speed claims, Joerg. When
it suits your arguments at the time, you say you ride fast. When it
suits your other arguments, you've said you ride slow.


That's because you don't pay attention.


-- - Frank Krygowski


IF it were true then Joerg's going full bore over any terrain at all
times would be a great part of why he has so much trouble with his
stuff breaking.


I don't bomb downhill on the MTB anymore. Too old for that and seen too
many cases of the aftermath when it went wrong.

I do often get to 20mph on regular MTB trail sections and since we have
rocks embedded in the ground that's hard on the bike. Hence a FS MTB and
a home-built rack system because the commercial stuff ain't good.

However, we were talking about road bike tires here and there I always
go full close tilt unless I am distracted. For example by aerobatics up
in the sky on Friday. That was worth seeing.

Full means a speed that I can hold for an hour or two, not a speed where
my tongue hangs on the handlebar after 10mins. IOW the speed tat gives
me the best time from A to Z, not just from A to B.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #123  
Old May 1st 19, 12:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Belt drive

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 15:51:45 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-30 15:30, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 12:13:14 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-29 21:49, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:35:23 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


[...]

Besides, it ain't cheap:

1. SUV, four tires, $70 each so $280 total, 1st set lasted 70000mi and
still had half the tread. I only replaced them because they were around
15 years old.

70,000 miles at $280? that is what? Less than one cent a mile? and you
can't afford it?


Where did I say that?

Just above. You wrote "1. SUV, four tires, $70 each so $280 total, 1st
set lasted 70000mi and still had half the tread. I only replaced them
because they were around 15 years old."

$280 X 100 = 28,000 cents divided by 70000 = 0.04 cents a mile


I never said that I can't afford it. Do not state words that other
people did not say.


You are correct. You didn't say that you couldn't afford it. But by
the way that you so lovingly described the deal it certainly sounded
as though the $280 made a big impression on you.


2. Gatorskin, $45, lasted 2500mi at which point the tread surface was at
bare minimum.

What sort of a job do you have that you can't afford $45/2500 = 1.8
cents a mile for tires?

3. Vittoria Zafiro, $13, 2000mi.

Want more? I trust you can do the math.

Sure I can do the math and in my money 45 dollars is 1,440 baht. Which
is literally pocket change. It won't even cover a trip to the grocery
store. And you are whining about that?


Our parents and grandparents instilled a good philisophy in us. "He who
does not value the penny is not worth the dollar". I know scores of
people who say similar things. "What? You mind the measly five bucks of
a morning coffee and pastry at the drive-thru?". Well, I do. Needless to
say the folks who lived that way must keep on working until they are
well north of 65 and some literally until they keel over. I don't.


The problem is that in your grandparents day a penny was money. Today,
if you still have 1 cent coins it isn't even pocket change. If you
drop one most people couldn't be bothered to bend over and pick it up.


Those are typically those who run into money troubles. Pretty much
everyone whom I ever heard saying things like "Oh, that's just chump
change" did.


Well, I didn't but not because I scrimped on the pennies but because I
put half my earnings in the bank or later invested them, from the time
I first went to work. I also never, with the exception of the first
house I bought in the U.S., borrowed money.

My father did that. When he bought a new car he would open a separate
bank account and put the odd $5 or $10 dollars into the account when
he had a bit extra. Eventually the account would get big enough and
he'd buy a new car.

Besides, being conscious about small costs has honed my design skills in
electronics. When I design there is a cost calculator constantly running
in my brain.


Based on what I understand is California minimum salary rates a penny
is a tiny fraction of one minute's salary. 10 x 100=1,000 cents/hour
divided by 60 minutes = 16.6 cents/minute = 3.614 seconds per cent.

If it takes you more than 3.6 seconds to bend over and pick up the
penny than you are losing money :-)



No, no, look at the positive side. I am getting free core muscle
training :-)


Or straining your back picking up the penny :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #124  
Old May 1st 19, 12:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Belt drive

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 18:45:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/30/2019 4:53 PM, Joerg wrote:


You won't believe how many people in our town still do it, blissfully
unaware that $5/workday times two people is a cost of more than
$200/month. Then they also go to lunch at $10 a pop and there goes
another $400.

Then they "need" $50/mo/person smart phone plans, a $100 cable TV
subscription, $80 for the gym, new cars every 3-4 years and thus
eternally revolving car payments, house mortgaged to the hilt, et
cetera. Typically those are the people who can least afford it. Is it
any wonder that the average American has net zero savings at retirement
age?


FWIW, I've done none of those things; and our retirement is very secure.
And as I've said many times, I don't have a connoisseur mentality.

But I won't ride $15 tires. There are limits.


Our British have a saying, "Horses for courses" , which implies the
right thing for the job, that applies I suggest.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #125  
Old May 1st 19, 12:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Belt drive

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 15:54:35 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-30 15:14, wrote:
On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 4:35:24 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-29 16:02, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:16:27 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-28 15:07, John B. wrote:


[...]


I've been told that the cheap tires in Thailand all made from a
rubber mix that contains a lot of carbon black, which makes them
harder and they wear less and thus are very well regarded by those who
can't afford to buy tires frequently. Unfortunately hard tires also
"grip the road" less well and have minimal traction.


I do not need Tour de France level cornering performance and found them
to be quite adequate for riding. Especially the MTB tires because there
durability and sturdiness counts a lot more than sqeezing the last tenth
of an mph out of a ride.

On both the road bike and the MTB I want beefy sidewalls and so far
tires made in Thailand gave me that, plus a decent number of miles in
terms of wear.

I really don't understand this fetish with how many miles a bicycle
tire lasts. After all, compared to something like auto tires or egg
beaters they are pretty cheap.


How would you like it if you had to switch out the tires on your car
every 2500mi?

Besides, it ain't cheap:

1. SUV, four tires, $70 each so $280 total, 1st set lasted 70000mi and
still had half the tread. I only replaced them because they were around
15 years old.

2. Gatorskin, $45, lasted 2500mi at which point the tread surface was at
bare minimum.

3. Vittoria Zafiro, $13, 2000mi.

Want more? I trust you can do the math.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I don't remember those Zafiro's as having any armor layer.


They don't and I also ran them almost to the bone. Thanks to
thorn-resistant thick tubes plus a tire liners an armor layer is no
longer required on any of my bikes and I can squeeze out the last mile.


If you are so intent on saving the last penny why not just throw the
bicycle away and save all that money on tires. Walking is a far better
exercise, hour for hour, or mile for mile, than bicycling. Or even
jogging or running. A half marathon on Sundays is good exercise.

P.S. You don't even need shoes. Zola Budd broke the world record in
the women's 5000 meters running barefooted.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #126  
Old May 1st 19, 01:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default Belt drive

On Tuesday, April 30, 2019 at 11:16:16 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 6:52:52 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 30, 2019 at 12:35:24 AM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-29 16:02, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:16:27 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-28 15:07, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 07:46:33 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote:
My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is
building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact
length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive
to replace.

So, why?


Dad gave him too much money :-)

Now, a shaft drive, that would be great.


Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been
tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I
think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would
mitigate that?


Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW.
That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight
doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just
want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the
chain every 50 miles.

It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure
something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and
central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build
it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy
loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore.


Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I
clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew
though the drive chain.


I'd be careful ...

https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo
Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a
LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to
get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline
powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all,
weight doesn't matter to you.


Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle
that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they
generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of
breakdowns. I happen to be one of those.

The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time
were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have
thorn-resistant tubes et cetera.

But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had
a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride, in
20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a
time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it.


No flats in 20 years?

I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire
to be a "breakdown" or "came loose"

A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of
the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles.

But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a
flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the
old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools. Fix it with
your bare hands.


Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it can be
done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a while.

I bought a pair of Gatorskin tires, oh probably 10 years ago, and
contrary to their advertised proof against flats promptly had two
flats in less than 5 Km of riding. I haven't used a gatorskin since.


I never use them anymore either. I found them a bit undersized, a bear
to get on. The running surface is sturdy and no flats there. Also, one
of them made it to a record 2500mi while no others ever exceeded 2000mi
by much on the rear. However, all other Gatorskins I had failed
prematurely in their sidewalls and that's what makes them unacceptable
to me.


As for Vee tires, I have the feeling that they are a very cheap Thai
made tire or at least I saw some for sale in a store called "Super
Cheap" for something like 3 dollars each, so I don't use those either.


Just because something is cheap does not mean it is a bad product.

No, but it does mean that it is cheap and cheap can be produced by
using less than quality materials.

I've been told that the cheap tires in Thailand all made from a
rubber mix that contains a lot of carbon black, which makes them
harder and they wear less and thus are very well regarded by those who
can't afford to buy tires frequently. Unfortunately hard tires also
"grip the road" less well and have minimal traction.


I do not need Tour de France level cornering performance and found them
to be quite adequate for riding. Especially the MTB tires because there
durability and sturdiness counts a lot more than sqeezing the last tenth
of an mph out of a ride.

On both the road bike and the MTB I want beefy sidewalls and so far
tires made in Thailand gave me that, plus a decent number of miles in
terms of wear.

I really don't understand this fetish with how many miles a bicycle
tire lasts. After all, compared to something like auto tires or egg
beaters they are pretty cheap.


How would you like it if you had to switch out the tires on your car
every 2500mi?

Besides, it ain't cheap:

1. SUV, four tires, $70 each so $280 total, 1st set lasted 70000mi and
still had half the tread. I only replaced them because they were around
15 years old.

2. Gatorskin, $45, lasted 2500mi at which point the tread surface was at
bare minimum.

3. Vittoria Zafiro, $13, 2000mi.

Want more? I trust you can do the math.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


I dunno what you're doing, Joerg, but you're doing it wrong. Compare this to your expensive misfortunes with supposedly "cheap" tyres:

1. Schwalbe 622x60 Big Apples, pair, plus T19A Ultraleigt tubes, pair, total delivered to my door Euro 66
-- half-worn at 8500km/5300m

Andre Jute
The best is always in the end the cheap option


Andre - what size are you? I think that Jorge and I are about the same size, do the same sort of riding and get about the same mileage on the same sorts of tires.


6ft, near enough 200lbs, which is about 6lbs more than when I was a semi-professional athlete ("semi" because none of my colleges permitted sports scholarships and I lived like a prince on my "wink'n'nudge" scholarships). But I think you're on a hiding to nothing here, Tom. I was getting a thousand miles on a chain, and just didn't believe claims on another forum of many thousands of miles, even up to 10K. But in time I worked out that the high-cadence guys stressed their chains less, and the obsessive chain cleaners wore them less, and that I was a masher with some responsibility for destroying those chains and in fact complete transmission sets, whereas those guys were touching their chains with hummingbird strokes. I also ignorantly made some rubbish choices when I began cycling, like Shimano's Nexus boutique transmission sets, soft ali crap but very pretty. Eventually, with a gradually built systems approach, I now get c3K miles per chain (could be more but I run them only to 0.5 on the gauge, and run them solely on the factory lube for their entire life, without adding any more lube -- others with the components I recommend get awesome mileages on the same model chain), and I'm not destroying the rest of the transmission. Another example: I used to destroy the tyres my LBS fitted in a thousand miles. Gradually I went wider, learned something about bicycle tyre structure and manufacture (I already knew a great deal about automobile tyres, as my specialty in automobiles is suspensions), and fitted better and better tyres and inflated them less and less, to the point where at 8500km, about 5300 miles, my Big Apples were half worn on the rear tyre and not visibly worn on the front tyre, truly amazing -- for me.

So, it isn't only that everyone wears components differently, it is also that one person can change the wear pattern by relentless development or, possibly, by behaviour change (it turned out I couldn't change my cadence significantly and I just wasn't going to get my hands dirty with daily chain cleaning, so I did it all in component choices and applications instead).

Andre Jute
Let a thousand flowers bloom -- Chairman Mao Zedung
  #127  
Old May 1st 19, 01:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Belt drive

rOn Tue, 30 Apr 2019 16:14:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-30 15:59, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, April 30, 2019 at 6:48:51 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 4/30/2019 3:16 PM, Joerg wrote:


Maybe your riding style or terrain. I tend to always go full
bore, whatever the leg muscles can deliver. That ain't wrong,
that's my mode of operation because I don't like to go slow.

You've been all over the map with your speed claims, Joerg. When
it suits your arguments at the time, you say you ride fast. When it
suits your other arguments, you've said you ride slow.


That's because you don't pay attention.


-- - Frank Krygowski


IF it were true then Joerg's going full bore over any terrain at all
times would be a great part of why he has so much trouble with his
stuff breaking.


I don't bomb downhill on the MTB anymore. Too old for that and seen too
many cases of the aftermath when it went wrong.

I do often get to 20mph on regular MTB trail sections and since we have
rocks embedded in the ground that's hard on the bike. Hence a FS MTB and
a home-built rack system because the commercial stuff ain't good.

However, we were talking about road bike tires here and there I always
go full close tilt unless I am distracted. For example by aerobatics up
in the sky on Friday. That was worth seeing.

Full means a speed that I can hold for an hour or two, not a speed where
my tongue hangs on the handlebar after 10mins. IOW the speed tat gives
me the best time from A to Z, not just from A to B.


Hmmm... I've always thought "full speed" was the speed you reached
when that big, bad, dog, came rushing out of the drive with dinner on
his mind.

My experiences have been that one can reach some astonishingly high
speeds in that event :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #128  
Old May 1st 19, 02:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Belt drive

On 4/30/2019 8:28 PM, John B. wrote:
rOn Tue, 30 Apr 2019 16:14:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-30 15:59, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, April 30, 2019 at 6:48:51 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 4/30/2019 3:16 PM, Joerg wrote:


Maybe your riding style or terrain. I tend to always go full
bore, whatever the leg muscles can deliver. That ain't wrong,
that's my mode of operation because I don't like to go slow.

You've been all over the map with your speed claims, Joerg. When
it suits your arguments at the time, you say you ride fast. When it
suits your other arguments, you've said you ride slow.


That's because you don't pay attention.


-- - Frank Krygowski

IF it were true then Joerg's going full bore over any terrain at all
times would be a great part of why he has so much trouble with his
stuff breaking.


I don't bomb downhill on the MTB anymore. Too old for that and seen too
many cases of the aftermath when it went wrong.

I do often get to 20mph on regular MTB trail sections and since we have
rocks embedded in the ground that's hard on the bike. Hence a FS MTB and
a home-built rack system because the commercial stuff ain't good.

However, we were talking about road bike tires here and there I always
go full close tilt unless I am distracted. For example by aerobatics up
in the sky on Friday. That was worth seeing.

Full means a speed that I can hold for an hour or two, not a speed where
my tongue hangs on the handlebar after 10mins. IOW the speed tat gives
me the best time from A to Z, not just from A to B.


Hmmm... I've always thought "full speed" was the speed you reached
when that big, bad, dog, came rushing out of the drive with dinner on
his mind.

My experiences have been that one can reach some astonishingly high
speeds in that event :-)


From the bicycling movie American Flyers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8uP-dxllKQ


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #129  
Old May 1st 19, 04:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Belt drive

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 21:44:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/30/2019 8:28 PM, John B. wrote:
rOn Tue, 30 Apr 2019 16:14:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-30 15:59, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, April 30, 2019 at 6:48:51 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 4/30/2019 3:16 PM, Joerg wrote:


Maybe your riding style or terrain. I tend to always go full
bore, whatever the leg muscles can deliver. That ain't wrong,
that's my mode of operation because I don't like to go slow.

You've been all over the map with your speed claims, Joerg. When
it suits your arguments at the time, you say you ride fast. When it
suits your other arguments, you've said you ride slow.


That's because you don't pay attention.


-- - Frank Krygowski

IF it were true then Joerg's going full bore over any terrain at all
times would be a great part of why he has so much trouble with his
stuff breaking.


I don't bomb downhill on the MTB anymore. Too old for that and seen too
many cases of the aftermath when it went wrong.

I do often get to 20mph on regular MTB trail sections and since we have
rocks embedded in the ground that's hard on the bike. Hence a FS MTB and
a home-built rack system because the commercial stuff ain't good.

However, we were talking about road bike tires here and there I always
go full close tilt unless I am distracted. For example by aerobatics up
in the sky on Friday. That was worth seeing.

Full means a speed that I can hold for an hour or two, not a speed where
my tongue hangs on the handlebar after 10mins. IOW the speed tat gives
me the best time from A to Z, not just from A to B.


Hmmm... I've always thought "full speed" was the speed you reached
when that big, bad, dog, came rushing out of the drive with dinner on
his mind.

My experiences have been that one can reach some astonishingly high
speeds in that event :-)


From the bicycling movie American Flyers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8uP-dxllKQ


Proof that the old story that "when chased by a bear you don't have to
run faster than the bear. You just have to run faster than the guy
next to you, is true :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #130  
Old May 1st 19, 04:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,638
Default Belt drive

On Tue, 30 Apr 2019 15:51:45 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

No, no, look at the positive side. I am getting free core muscle
training :-)


*And* I'm cleaning up the environment. Last penny I picked up, I
dropped into the nearest pocket, and I'm not sure I ever saw it again.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

 




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