A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Recumbent Biking
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

No Helmets Needed?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old January 5th 06, 03:07 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Helmets Needed?

Just curious: why does the HP Velotechnik site show photos of
helmetless riders?

Anyone actually fell of a 'bent? Seems like a harder thing to do, no?
I mean, don't you just put your foot down -- the body's so close to the
ground as it is....

I'm still not sure how styrofoam is supposed to protect the head...why
not wear a real helmet?

Surely someone manufactures a lightweight helmet that's stronger and
lighter than styrofoam?

Ads
  #2  
Old January 5th 06, 03:45 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Helmets Needed?

NYC XYZ wrote:
Just curious: why does the HP Velotechnik site show photos of
helmetless riders?


Visit continental Europe and you'll see thousands upon thousands of
riders not wearing helmets, especially in the NL, and that's on
conventional bikes with further to fall and a much greater chance of
headplanting over the bars. Helmets are very much the exception and
usually only seen on people doing serious sports riding.

Anyone actually fell of a 'bent?


A few times, usually sliding out on gravel and a couple of comedy
unclipping disasters.

Seems like a harder thing to do, no?


Sliding out it's just as easy.

I'm still not sure how styrofoam is supposed to protect the head...why
not wear a real helmet?


Because they weigh a large amount and aren't ventilated very well and
are consequently poorly suited to aerobic activity.

There was a recent flame war thread here called "Advisor wanted" where
helmet efficacy was discussed ad nauseum and then some. Google back to
that, or for a less flamey repository of helmet information look at
www.cyclehelmets.org
People have been safely cycling without helemts for well over a century
on a routine basis, it isn't the certain route to brain damage or death
often painted.
Wear one if you like, but I must say I've enjoyed my cycling a lot more
since I found out how necessary they aren't and stopped wearing one.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  #3  
Old January 5th 06, 04:00 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Helmets Needed?


Peter Clinch wrote:


Visit continental Europe and you'll see thousands upon thousands of
riders not wearing helmets, especially in the NL, and that's on
conventional bikes with further to fall and a much greater chance of
headplanting over the bars. Helmets are very much the exception and
usually only seen on people doing serious sports riding.


Yeah, I get that impression. I hate how every goddamned tour and club
forces you to wear helmets! Not only do they look dumb, and I have an
oddly-shaped head besides that really defeats conventional helmet
topologies (don't ask me what I had to do in the Army -- let's just say
that I got headaches a lot), but...STYRO-FOAM?????? "Enjoy Delicious
Chinese Food!"

A few times, usually sliding out on gravel and a couple of comedy
unclipping disasters.

Sliding out it's just as easy.


Hmm, I still can't really see it...is it maybe harder, at least, than
compared to an upright? To fall out/off.

Because they weigh a large amount and aren't ventilated very well and
are consequently poorly suited to aerobic activity.


No, that's what I'm driving at: surely in this 21st Century there are
"boutique" makers who do, I dunno, light-weight fiber-glass (whatever
-- I'm sure Materials Science is mature enough a field to be capable of
something like this!!!) that's cut out here and there for air flow.

I know I'd pay $200, $300 for such a helmet! It'll be just as light
(or a few grams heavier, for Chrissake), or even lighter, and surely
stronger than STYRO-FOAM!!!!!! "Enjoy Delicious Chinese Food!"

There was a recent flame war thread here called "Advisor wanted" where
helmet efficacy was discussed ad nauseum and then some. Google back to
that, or for a less flamey repository of helmet information look at
www.cyclehelmets.org


Cool, thanks!

People have been safely cycling without helemts for well over a century
on a routine basis, it isn't the certain route to brain damage or death
often painted.


I totally agree. They should go after those annoying "cell-phone
drivers" instead!

Wear one if you like, but I must say I've enjoyed my cycling a lot more
since I found out how necessary they aren't and stopped wearing one.


I'd rather not, but would since clubs and tours require it -- only,
like I said, I have an odd-shaped head and I can't see the protection
in STYO-FOAM!!!!! "Enjoy Delicious Chinese Food!"

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/


  #4  
Old January 5th 06, 04:00 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Helmets Needed?


Peter Clinch wrote:


Visit continental Europe and you'll see thousands upon thousands of
riders not wearing helmets, especially in the NL, and that's on
conventional bikes with further to fall and a much greater chance of
headplanting over the bars. Helmets are very much the exception and
usually only seen on people doing serious sports riding.


Yeah, I get that impression. I hate how every goddamned tour and club
forces you to wear helmets! Not only do they look dumb, and I have an
oddly-shaped head besides that really defeats conventional helmet
topologies (don't ask me what I had to do in the Army -- let's just say
that I got headaches a lot), but...STYRO-FOAM?????? "Enjoy Delicious
Chinese Food!"

A few times, usually sliding out on gravel and a couple of comedy
unclipping disasters.

Sliding out it's just as easy.


Hmm, I still can't really see it...is it maybe harder, at least, than
compared to an upright? To fall out/off.

Because they weigh a large amount and aren't ventilated very well and
are consequently poorly suited to aerobic activity.


No, that's what I'm driving at: surely in this 21st Century there are
"boutique" makers who do, I dunno, light-weight fiber-glass (whatever
-- I'm sure Materials Science is mature enough a field to be capable of
something like this!!!) that's cut out here and there for air flow.

I know I'd pay $200, $300 for such a helmet! It'll be just as light
(or a few grams heavier, for Chrissake), or even lighter, and surely
stronger than STYRO-FOAM!!!!!! "Enjoy Delicious Chinese Food!"

There was a recent flame war thread here called "Advisor wanted" where
helmet efficacy was discussed ad nauseum and then some. Google back to
that, or for a less flamey repository of helmet information look at
www.cyclehelmets.org


Cool, thanks!

People have been safely cycling without helemts for well over a century
on a routine basis, it isn't the certain route to brain damage or death
often painted.


I totally agree. They should go after those annoying "cell-phone
drivers" instead!

Wear one if you like, but I must say I've enjoyed my cycling a lot more
since I found out how necessary they aren't and stopped wearing one.


I'd rather not, but would since clubs and tours require it -- only,
like I said, I have an odd-shaped head and I can't see the protection
in STYRO-FOAM!!!!! "Enjoy Delicious Chinese Food!"

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/


  #5  
Old January 5th 06, 04:26 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Helmets Needed?

NYC XYZ wrote:

Yeah, I get that impression. I hate how every goddamned tour and club
forces you to wear helmets!


In my club in the U.S., we fought mandatory helmets on rides for a long
time. What finally forced us to cave was our insurer, which at the time
was the League of American Wheelmen (LAW). I suspect that the same issue
of insurance is forcing the clubs and tours in your area to adopt the
same policy. To obtain a policy without agreeing to require helmets
would raise the premium significantly.

Even before the mandatory helmet rule, I'd estimate that at least 80% of
the cyclists on club rides were wearing helmets anyway. It was not so
much the wearing of the helmet that we objected to, it was being forced
to do so. This is why compulsion is a bad idea. OTOH the high voluntary
compliance rate in my club was probably an anomaly due to its location
in Silicon Valley, where most of the club members had high levels of
education.
  #6  
Old January 5th 06, 04:55 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Helmets Needed?


SMS wrote:
NYC XYZ wrote:



In my club in the U.S., we fought mandatory helmets on rides for a long
time. What finally forced us to cave was our insurer, which at the time
was the League of American Wheelmen (LAW). I suspect that the same issue
of insurance is forcing the clubs and tours in your area to adopt the
same policy. To obtain a policy without agreeing to require helmets
would raise the premium significantly.


Ah, great point! Why didn't I think of that! Yes, that's it for sure.

Even before the mandatory helmet rule, I'd estimate that at least 80% of
the cyclists on club rides were wearing helmets anyway. It was not so
much the wearing of the helmet that we objected to, it was being forced
to do so. This is why compulsion is a bad idea. OTOH the high voluntary
compliance rate in my club was probably an anomaly due to its location
in Silicon Valley, where most of the club members had high levels of
education.


Hmm...but Europeans are supposed better edjamacated than US-ians, and
they're zipping around carefree.

  #7  
Old January 5th 06, 05:08 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Helmets Needed?

NYC XYZ wrote:

Yeah, I get that impression. I hate how every goddamned tour and club
forces you to wear helmets!


As Steve Scharf suggests, this is probably about insurance. In the UK
various insurers have tried threatening cyclists with contributory
negligence claims when they've been injured while not wearing helmets,
but as yet none of these have been successfully pressed. The main
cycling organisation here, the Cycle Touring Club, has quite rigorously
acted against such claims.

Hmm, I still can't really see it...is it maybe harder, at least, than
compared to an upright? To fall out/off.


Depends what sort of falling off. A sideways slide on gravel is at
least as easy, where flying over the bars is very difficult. On average
I find I don't fall off any sort of bike very often except a mountain
bike, and that's more a function of the terrain I'm not doing a very
good job of than the bike!

No, that's what I'm driving at: surely in this 21st Century there are
"boutique" makers who do, I dunno, light-weight fiber-glass (whatever
-- I'm sure Materials Science is mature enough a field to be capable of
something like this!!!) that's cut out here and there for air flow.


Helmets will work by load spreading and energy absorption. The latter
will generally be far more effective than the former because there's
only so much head you can spread the load over, and the neck will often
take the whole lot at some point in any case. Polystyrene is actually
pretty effective as an absorber, but it remains the case that in the
sort of accidents that will get you killed it isn't good enough.
Helmets have a track record of not doing anything much to rates of
serious injuries in cycling populations, though I certainly wear mine if
I go mountain biking because I expect to fall off and at the sort of low
speeds the EN1078 spec is built to actually tangibly help. If you think
you'll fall off wear a lid to prevent a nasty graze and a headache, but
don't assume there's much chance of it saving your life.

I know I'd pay $200, $300 for such a helmet! It'll be just as light
(or a few grams heavier, for Chrissake), or even lighter, and surely
stronger than STYRO-FOAM!!!!!!


Stronger in the sense of ability to break it in your hands, yes, but
better capable of absorbing energy? Unlikely. Most helmets made of
tougher stuff have quite a bit of absorbing material as well as the
shell, or have a fair bit of extra room and a cradle to spread the
impact (like a site or climbing helmet, where it's a pretty safe
assumption a primary impact will come from above)

I'd rather not, but would since clubs and tours require it


Nothing stopping you organise your own rides, of course.

One thing to bear in mind with 'bents is they have rather different
performance characteristics to typical uprights. You'll typically be
slower up hills, faster into headwinds and down hills. This can be a
problem for all concerned if you're on a group tour on a hilly, windy
circuit, depending on how much folk are happy to wait up and take it at
a slowest pace. Lower machines can make life a little more awkward to
speak to folk next to you, and the fact that other folk can't draft you
can be an annoyance to some, though it'll depend on the group.
Something to bear in mind if you're into group riding though.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  #8  
Old January 5th 06, 05:28 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Helmets Needed?


NYC XYZ wrote:
SMS wrote:
NYC XYZ wrote:



In my club in the U.S., we fought mandatory helmets on rides for a long
time. What finally forced us to cave was our insurer, which at the time
was the League of American Wheelmen (LAW). I suspect that the same issue
of insurance is forcing the clubs and tours in your area to adopt the
same policy. To obtain a policy without agreeing to require helmets
would raise the premium significantly.


Ah, great point! Why didn't I think of that! Yes, that's it for sure.


It's _possible_ that's it, but I'm not so sure.

I ran a good-sized century ride for seven or eight years. We were LAB
sanctioned and insured. (We even won a LAB award.) We did _not_
require helmets, and we were not told to do so.

That was in the 1990s. To see if things changed, I poked around the
LAB website. Here's the waiver form they want clubs to use for their
organized rides:

http://www.bikeleague.org/members/sample_waiver.pdf

Search for "helmet." You'll find nothing. No requirements.

I think the helmet requirements of most bike clubs are simply more of
the same nonsense we see elsewhere. They're generated by true
believers who have never looked into the issue beyond, say, "Safe Kids"
promotional blurbs, and who smugly justify their odd costumes based on
those blurbs.

- Frank Krygowski

  #9  
Old January 5th 06, 05:42 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Helmets Needed?


"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
[...]
People have been safely cycling without helemts for well over a century on
a routine basis, it isn't the certain route to brain damage or death often
painted.
Wear one if you like, but I must say I've enjoyed my cycling a lot more
since I found out how necessary they aren't and stopped wearing one.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/


Pete has fallen on his head too many times and is now as screwed up as his
signature. Folks who go cycling without wearing SOMETHING on their heads
look like the jerks and dorks that they are. Since you have to wear
something on your head, it might as well be a helmet. And who knows, it
might just save your life some day.

Listen to old Pete here and you will end up posting a signature like he does
and babbling about being a Medical Physics IT Officer. There is just no way
this idiot can possibly be connected with a university. I strongly suspect
he is the janitor there and is just using their computer for some free
Internet access.

Do any of us here really need to know his phone number (with extension no
less) and his fax number? If he wants to tell us that he is from Dundee,
Scotland, that is fine and all we would ever have to know about him. But he
is crazy - and you listen to him at your peril.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota



  #10  
Old January 5th 06, 05:45 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default No Helmets Needed?

"NYC XYZ" wrote in
ups.com:

Just curious: why does the HP Velotechnik site show photos of
helmetless riders?

Anyone actually fell of a 'bent? Seems like a harder thing to do, no?
I mean, don't you just put your foot down -- the body's so close to
the ground as it is....


I've managed that trick. I think it is impossible, though I could be
wrong, to do an endo from a bent. I was on a greenway and some kids
were fooling around in front of me, and I had to manoeuver sharply --
hitting minors is poor form here. This greenway was next to the FDR
drive and there was a temporary concrete construction barrier. Another
6" and my head would have been glancing and bouncing off the concrete at
18 MPH. Fortunately, I was still on the grass but I considered myself
lucky that I had some protection on my head. This is a highly unusual
confluence of circumstances, but it's always the thing you don't expect
that trips you up.


I'm still not sure how styrofoam is supposed to protect the head...why
not wear a real helmet?


I once saw the engineering specs on styrofoam/epoxy one-shot helmets, if
that's what you're talking about. They're good for one crash and then
you toss the styrofoam and keep your head. I'm not an engineer and I
can't speak for them. I can say this about styrofoam, though. I once
had an opportunity to get a look at a downed fighter plane in the middle
east. I noticed that it was made of aluminum foil, styrofoam, and epoxy

--ag

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
No Helmets Needed? NYC XYZ General 206 January 16th 06 02:08 PM
Bicycle helmets help prevent serious head injury among children, part one. John Doe UK 3 November 30th 04 04:46 PM
Does public health care pay for your head injuries? John Doe UK 187 November 30th 04 03:51 PM
Convincing people to use helmets Oliver Keating UK 391 February 25th 04 12:50 PM
Compulsory helmets again! Richard Burton UK 526 December 29th 03 09:19 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.