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#1
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torque wrench issues
"Emanuel Berg" wrote in message ... I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench, 28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if that is China or not It has a locking screw, a torque setting handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some English unit I take it?) - it also as a locking lever on top just like an ordinary ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and anti-clockwise. The torques only work in the clockwise direction. So if the locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way, it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in the manual it says: Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will damage the ratchet mechanism and the calibrated settings. So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which would require a left thread? (And it would be just a long shaft, with the torque not in effect.) As for me, I don't plan using it for anything but as a torque, because I have other, less expensive ratchets and spanners to do the everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know what it means. It also came with a certificate with data on the calibration and in the manual it says it should be recalibrated at least every 12 months. Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter. Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com |
#2
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torque wrench issues
On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote: "Emanuel Berg" wrote in message ... I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench, 28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if that is China or not It has a locking screw, a torque setting handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some English unit I take it?) - it also as a locking lever on top just like an ordinary ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and anti-clockwise. The torques only work in the clockwise direction. So if the locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way, it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in the manual it says: Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will damage the ratchet mechanism and the calibrated settings. So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which would require a left thread? (And it would be just a long shaft, with the torque not in effect.) As for me, I don't plan using it for anything but as a torque, because I have other, less expensive ratchets and spanners to do the everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know what it means. It also came with a certificate with data on the calibration and in the manual it says it should be recalibrated at least every 12 months. Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter. Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off the end. However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt" Also, some of the wrenching I have done on bicycles has revealed some terribly poor quality materials (can anyone say "flying pigeon"?) There have been tests done which indicate oiled threads do not affect bolt tension and give the most consistent torque /tension results (10W40 oil).Anti-sieze can increase the tension on a bolt by up to 71% at the same measured torque. Moly paste used as a lubricant was somewhere in betweeen - but antiseize was non-linear in it;s results as the friction of the threads did not increase with the tension on the bolt. See http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/threads.htm for the complete results. Even the difference between a cadmium plated bolt, a shiny zinc plated bolt and a black oxide finished alloy bolt can be measured and MAY be more significant than the difference between oiled and dry. Also the existance or non-existance of a washer under the head of the bolt or the nut can affect the tension on a bolt at a given torque - or even the difference between a mild steel or a hard washer. For a VERY accurate "torque spec", the rod bearing bolts, for instance, on a high performance racing engine, are torqued to a pre-determined stretch. The bolt is measured before installation, and then is torqued until it measures a precise amount longer than the initial measurement. This requires precision bolts - and the bolts MUST NEVER BE RE-USED. Under torquing (insufficient stretch) on these bolts will cause the bolts to break in use. I'm not aware of any "torque to yield" bolts in use on bicycles. |
#3
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torque wrench issues
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#4
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torque wrench issues
On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 19:37:28 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/23/2017 7:19 PM, wrote: On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: "Emanuel Berg" wrote in message ... -snip actual content- I'm not aware of any "torque to yield" bolts in use on bicycles. Didn't you say you wrenched on Flying Pigeon with those fasteners made from past-date cheese? Soft ripe Limburger - Those things STINK!!! |
#5
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torque wrench issues
On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 5:19:49 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off the end. However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt" Also, some of the wrenching I have done on bicycles has revealed some terribly poor quality materials (can anyone say "flying pigeon"?) There have been tests done which indicate oiled threads do not affect bolt tension and give the most consistent torque /tension results (10W40 oil).Anti-sieze can increase the tension on a bolt by up to 71% at the same measured torque. Moly paste used as a lubricant was somewhere in betweeen - but antiseize was non-linear in it;s results as the friction of the threads did not increase with the tension on the bolt. See http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/threads.htm for the complete results. Even the difference between a cadmium plated bolt, a shiny zinc plated bolt and a black oxide finished alloy bolt can be measured and MAY be more significant than the difference between oiled and dry. Also the existance or non-existance of a washer under the head of the bolt or the nut can affect the tension on a bolt at a given torque - or even the difference between a mild steel or a hard washer. For a VERY accurate "torque spec", the rod bearing bolts, for instance, on a high performance racing engine, are torqued to a pre-determined stretch. The bolt is measured before installation, and then is torqued until it measures a precise amount longer than the initial measurement. This requires precision bolts - and the bolts MUST NEVER BE RE-USED. Under torquing (insufficient stretch) on these bolts will cause the bolts to break in use. I'm not aware of any "torque to yield" bolts in use on bicycles. Now that you mention it I do remember that on cars, way back when, you would torque them them to a low setting and then run the engine until warm and then torque everything down to prevent the BMW problem of blowing off head bolts from heat expansion causing the yield of the head bolts to be exceeded. It seems to me I can even remember engines blowing head gaskets if you didn't follow these procedures. |
#7
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torque wrench issues
wrote in message ... On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: "Emanuel Berg" wrote in message ... I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench, 28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if that is China or not It has a locking screw, a torque setting handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some English unit I take it?) - it also as a locking lever on top just like an ordinary ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and anti-clockwise. The torques only work in the clockwise direction. So if the locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way, it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in the manual it says: Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will damage the ratchet mechanism and the calibrated settings. So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which would require a left thread? (And it would be just a long shaft, with the torque not in effect.) As for me, I don't plan using it for anything but as a torque, because I have other, less expensive ratchets and spanners to do the everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know what it means. It also came with a certificate with data on the calibration and in the manual it says it should be recalibrated at least every 12 months. Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter. Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off the end. However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt" Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off. Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads. |
#8
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torque wrench issues
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:51:41 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot"
wrote: wrote in message .. . On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: "Emanuel Berg" wrote in message ... I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench, 28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if that is China or not It has a locking screw, a torque setting handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some English unit I take it?) - it also as a locking lever on top just like an ordinary ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and anti-clockwise. The torques only work in the clockwise direction. So if the locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way, it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in the manual it says: Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will damage the ratchet mechanism and the calibrated settings. So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which would require a left thread? (And it would be just a long shaft, with the torque not in effect.) As for me, I don't plan using it for anything but as a torque, because I have other, less expensive ratchets and spanners to do the everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know what it means. It also came with a certificate with data on the calibration and in the manual it says it should be recalibrated at least every 12 months. Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter. Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off the end. However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt" Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off. Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads. As for stripping engine bolts, the Honda factory used to install fasteners so tight that a normal person couldn't get them out without an"impact driver". A tool that I never even saw before the Japanese invasion. |
#9
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torque wrench issues
On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:42:21 +0700, John B Slocomb
wrote: On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:51:41 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: "Emanuel Berg" wrote in message ... I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench, 28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if that is China or not It has a locking screw, a torque setting handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some English unit I take it?) - it also as a locking lever on top just like an ordinary ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and anti-clockwise. The torques only work in the clockwise direction. So if the locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way, it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in the manual it says: Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will damage the ratchet mechanism and the calibrated settings. So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which would require a left thread? (And it would be just a long shaft, with the torque not in effect.) As for me, I don't plan using it for anything but as a torque, because I have other, less expensive ratchets and spanners to do the everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know what it means. It also came with a certificate with data on the calibration and in the manual it says it should be recalibrated at least every 12 months. Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter. Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off the end. However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt" Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off. Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads. As for stripping engine bolts, the Honda factory used to install fasteners so tight that a normal person couldn't get them out without an"impact driver". A tool that I never even saw before the Japanese invasion. The lock washers were very effective where used, and the Phipips style bolts were incapable of delivering enough torque to breat them loose without camming out - the Hammer Impact driver solved that problem |
#10
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torque wrench issues
On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:17:14 -0400, wrote:
On Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:42:21 +0700, John B Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:51:41 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: wrote in message ... On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 22:06:05 +0100, "Benderthe.evilrobot" wrote: "Emanuel Berg" wrote in message ... I finally got the 1/2" torque wrench, 28-210 Nm, not even made in China, but in Taiwan! Eh... I guess it depends who you ask if that is China or not It has a locking screw, a torque setting handle, a scale (Nm as well as "FT-LB", some English unit I take it?) - it also as a locking lever on top just like an ordinary ratchet, so it can go both ways, clockwise and anti-clockwise. The torques only work in the clockwise direction. So if the locking (ratchet) lever is set the other way, it is just a ratchet, right? Well, in the manual it says: Note: Never use the torque wrench to undo nuts, bolts or other fasteners as this will damage the ratchet mechanism and the calibrated settings. So how does that add up? Is it only OK to use the anti-clockwise pull to insert things, which would require a left thread? (And it would be just a long shaft, with the torque not in effect.) As for me, I don't plan using it for anything but as a torque, because I have other, less expensive ratchets and spanners to do the everyday stuff. But of course, I'd like to know what it means. It also came with a certificate with data on the calibration and in the manual it says it should be recalibrated at least every 12 months. Calibration is irrelevant if you don't follow the rules to the letter. Most torque settings I've seen were for dry threads - any stray lubricant and you might even twist the end off at the correct torque. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com Torque specs vary considerably by application. Some are given as clean and dry, some are given as lubricated with oil - some are given cold, and others hot. That said, I personally have never run across a torque spec that was so "close to the edge" that torqing with "stray lubrication" would cause immediate failure of the bolt by twisting off the end. However, that said, most of my wrenching has not been on bicycles but on automobiles and agricultural and construction equipment which may be slightly more "overengineered" or "overbuilt" Bicycles tend to have less things you can twist the end off. Its common on motorcycles, but mainly pulling the threads out of alloy castings. Its pretty rare to strip an engine down so far that you can put the castings in degreasing plant - torquing the engine case bolts with oil left in the holes is a very good chance of stripping the threads. As for stripping engine bolts, the Honda factory used to install fasteners so tight that a normal person couldn't get them out without an"impact driver". A tool that I never even saw before the Japanese invasion. The lock washers were very effective where used, and the Phipips style bolts were incapable of delivering enough torque to breat them loose without camming out - the Hammer Impact driver solved that problem I believe I've read that the "Phillips" headed screws in a Japanese motorcycle are not actually "Phillips" but some Japanese standard that didn't quite match the screwdrivers we had in the U.S. Which probably didn't help either :-) |
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