Stronger rubber cement?

On 1/18/2017 3:47 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 11:31:55 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/17/2017 1:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-17 10:36, jbeattie wrote:


So what your saying is that I pay nothing extra insurance-wise for
owning a bike. It is covered by insurance that I already own. (:
OTOH, there are whole other things called "auto insurance policies"
-- specially for autos! And they cost a lot! ):


That is the same as saying that welfare costs us nothing. _Everyone_ is
paying for the risk of cycling including home owners who never ride. Is
that fair? I don't think so but that's the way it is.

Oh, quit the bull**** about the "risks of cycling." There have been at
least five different studies on the risks vs. benefits of cycling,
measured in different ways - for example, health care dollars spent vs.
saved, years of life lost vs. gained, etc. EVERY study found that
cycling is by FAR a net benefit.

So in insurance terms, you've got things backwards. _Everyone_ is
getting reduced insurance premiums and reduced health care costs from
cycling, even the people who never ride.

IOW, quit the "Danger! Danger!" implications. You may ride like an
idiot, but even you don't tip the scales in the direction you claim.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Aren't you the one telling us that the study that showed Hillary 14 points in the lead was accurate and my reference to a site that broke down these polls and said that they were so biased that they were useless was nothing more than BS?

Um... no, I wasn't telling you that. Memory problems are cropping up
again and again.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/18/2017 4:15 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 3:01:46 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/18/2017 1:29 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 8:10:41 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
I have a set of wheels with sew ups somewhere. I last used them maybe
40 years ago. I've never raced, so sew ups offer no benefits to me. I
wonder if they still will hold air?


When you have a flat they are much faster to fix. Just rip the flat
off the rim and stick on another from the collection you have strapped
under the seat :-)

John B.

Have you ever fixed a tubular on the side of the road? Or even in the shop at home? No one just rips off the flat tubular and quickly sticks the new one on the rim. Does not happen that way in the real world. Maybe in fantasy land. Tubulars are glued on very well. It takes a lot of pulling and prying to get a little bit of the tire off the rim. Then a lot of strength to slowly pull the rest of the tire off the rim. Several minutes of work or more. Then to put the new one on, you better pray it is well stretched on an old rim. You start at one side and slowly work it onto the rim with old glue. Slowly pulling it on. Then the last few inches you strain and stress until maybe hopefully you get it on. Then you spend several more minutes trying to get the tire somewhat straight on the rim. The old glue does not allow the tire to be moved very easily. Keep living in your fantasy world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYwfMlEGWlA

--
- Frank Krygowski

I can change the tube in my clincher tire in less time than he changed the tire on that rim (not counting the time he stopped to explain) and when pumped up I don't have to worry aboutthe tire rolling off the rim in a hard turn like you do with an unglued tubular.

The great thing about being able to change a tube on a clincher tire is that when it's done you have the SAME ability to ride the bike as you did when you left for the ride.

I agree, and so does almost everyone else these days.

After my one experience with tubulars I was thinking "Yeah, nice ride.
Not worth the fuss, though, because... [BANG!] WHAT THE HELL WAS
THAT???" And I went out to find a very expensive new tire with a hole
blown in it from the heat of the sun.

No thanks.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 23:25:15 +0000, Phil Lee
wrote:

Joerg considered Wed, 18 Jan 2017
07:36:48 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2017-01-17 15:26, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
analog,

I will not explain tire mounting again. Retard at your own speed


I have explained to you that these are _flat_ rims. Hard to understand?

Most of us never seem to have encountered such rims, so yes, it is
hard to understand that any manufacturer would produce such an utterly
useless design!
Are you sure they aren't cheap Chinese knockoffs of a normally good
quality product?

No they certainly did make them. I had a set on an old bike I bought
mainly to get the frame. It was a real task to get the old tires off
and an even greater task to get new tires on. After confirming this
with Andrew I took a 4" angle grinder to them. Sawed them up in pieces
and threw the pieces in the trash.

I can't remember what I paid for a decent set of rims and the spokes
to rebuild the wheels but it was far preferable to trying to wrestle
tires off and on the old rims.
--
Cheers,

John B.

jbeattie considered Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:10:48
-0800 (PST) the perfect time to write:

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 5:59:34 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 07:50:19 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:

:Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept
it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two
weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal".

Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to
volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for
the most part.


Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my
MTB tires are.

A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or
one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations
for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about
250lbs.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a
bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to
pedal power and the engine removed.

I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh
conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg
does.


According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two
factors allowed them to survive as a business:

1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time.

2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store
that sold their bikes was less than helpful.

Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb


Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe
then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles.
Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular
scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades
we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a
bicycle.

You talk about your auto escapades as hauling a half a cord of wood in
your SUV. You describe your bicycle riding as speeding down rocky
hills, leaping over bumps and unexpectedly diving into lakes.

If you drove your car the way that you claim to ride your bike I think
that you would have a very different concept of how bullet proof your
car is.

I've spent considerable time around trucks that haul heavy loads over
unimproved roads and my experience was that they definitely did
require frequent repairs.

I've also been around off the road racing cars and they took even more
maintenance than the trucks.

As usual, you are not comparing apples and apples.

I ride with a guy who races motorcycles. He can go through a set of tires over the course of weekend -- and they cost a mint. Talk about an expensive hobby.

-- Jay Beattie.

Only one set?
That must be a restricted formula.
When I used to help as an amateur mechanic for my neighbour, who raced
motorcycles to a national level, tyres lasted exactly one race.
likewise chains. Piston rings, one day, pistons, a weekend, cylinders
several times in a year, clutches before each meeting. Plus anything
that breaks, and of course, different internal gears and sprockets are
used for each circuit, to give the best gearing, along with different
pad compounds and disk diameters to suit circuit and conditions.
Various other parts were replaced on a regular basis as well, but it's
a long time ago now, so my list is not exhaustive. Tyres capable of
performing in the wet would be shredded in a couple of laps if the
circuit dried out.
The grinding from mud, dust, grit and sand creates even greater wear
on racing motocross bikes, and to increase performance, intake air is
barely filtered, if at all.

At the more extreme level (F1, Indy, NASCAR for cars, IoM-TT for
bikes), tyres are changed several times DURING the race, and the cars
or bikes are essentially new for each meeting, with ALL parts that can
possibly wear being replaced, and often other parts swapped for ones
more suitable for the different circuit!
The most extreme example I can think of off-hand is Formula E, where
the entire car is changed half-way through each race, when the battery
goes flat - so all the other allowed wear components are designed to
last only half a race!

That is a fairer comparison for a machine which you ride to it's
limits, not your false one of a softly tuned road vehicle, designed to
reach it's warranty period even if driven to the limits the road will
allow, if properly serviced and normal wear items replaced on
schedule.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 10:29:17 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 8:10:41 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
I have a set of wheels with sew ups somewhere. I last used them maybe
40 years ago. I've never raced, so sew ups offer no benefits to me. I
wonder if they still will hold air?


When you have a flat they are much faster to fix. Just rip the flat
off the rim and stick on another from the collection you have strapped
under the seat :-)

John B.

Have you ever fixed a tubular on the side of the road? Or even in the shop at home? No one just rips off the flat tubular and quickly sticks the new one on the rim. Does not happen that way in the real world. Maybe in fantasy land. Tubulars are glued on very well. It takes a lot of pulling and prying to get a little bit of the tire off the rim. Then a lot of strength to slowly pull the rest of the tire off the rim. Several minutes of work or more. Then to put the new one on, you better pray it is well stretched on an old rim. You start at one side and slowly work it onto the rim with old glue. Slowly pulling it on. Then the last few inches you strain and stress until maybe hopefully you get it on. Then you spend several more minutes trying to get the tire somewhat straight on the rim. The old glue does not allow the tire to be moved very easily. Keep living in your fantasy world.

I was using "fix" as a "fix" of the situation, i.e. flat tire on the
bike.

But your assertion that tubulars are glued on so well that you can't
pull them off is, based on some ten years of riding tubulars, just not
so. In fact once the tires were stretched - put them on a rim, pump
them up to 120 psi and leave them there for a week or so - I never had
any problem putting them on the wheels. And I might add that my record
was 4 flats in a 15 Km ride and pushed the bike the last kilometer
home.

(Which is why I no longer ride tubulars :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 15:01:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/18/2017 1:29 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 8:10:41 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
I have a set of wheels with sew ups somewhere. I last used them maybe
40 years ago. I've never raced, so sew ups offer no benefits to me. I
wonder if they still will hold air?


When you have a flat they are much faster to fix. Just rip the flat
off the rim and stick on another from the collection you have strapped
under the seat :-)

John B.

Have you ever fixed a tubular on the side of the road? Or even in the shop at home? No one just rips off the flat tubular and quickly sticks the new one on the rim. Does not happen that way in the real world. Maybe in fantasy land. Tubulars are glued on very well. It takes a lot of pulling and prying to get a little bit of the tire off the rim. Then a lot of strength to slowly pull the rest of the tire off the rim. Several minutes of work or more. Then to put the new one on, you better pray it is well stretched on an old rim. You start at one side and slowly work it onto the rim with old glue. Slowly pulling it on. Then the last few inches you strain and stress until maybe hopefully you get it on. Then you spend several more minutes trying to get the tire somewhat straight on the rim. The old glue does not allow the tire to be moved very easily. Keep living in your fantasy world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYwfMlEGWlA


Or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07LT-fGnpvk
which parallels my experiences.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/18/2017 7:06 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2017 15:01:43 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/18/2017 1:29 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 8:10:41 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
I have a set of wheels with sew ups somewhere. I last used them maybe
40 years ago. I've never raced, so sew ups offer no benefits to me. I
wonder if they still will hold air?


When you have a flat they are much faster to fix. Just rip the flat
off the rim and stick on another from the collection you have strapped
under the seat :-)

John B.

Have you ever fixed a tubular on the side of the road? Or even in the shop at home? No one just rips off the flat tubular and quickly sticks the new one on the rim. Does not happen that way in the real world. Maybe in fantasy land. Tubulars are glued on very well. It takes a lot of pulling and prying to get a little bit of the tire off the rim. Then a lot of strength to slowly pull the rest of the tire off the rim. Several minutes of work or more. Then to put the new one on, you better pray it is well stretched on an old rim. You start at one side and slowly work it onto the rim with old glue. Slowly pulling it on. Then the last few inches you strain and stress until maybe hopefully you get it on. Then you spend several more minutes trying to get the tire somewhat straight on the rim. The old glue does not allow the tire to be moved very easily. Keep living in your fantasy world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYwfMlEGWlA


Or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07LT-fGnpvk
which parallels my experiences.
--
Cheers,

John B.


Good technique.
If the last bit is tight on the rim, you will have a lumpy
valve area and short tire life.

I usually do that without neon nail polish. Is that OK?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Phil Lee wrote:
:Joerg considered Wed, 18 Jan 2017
:
:I have explained to you that these are _flat_ rims. Hard to understand?

:Most of us never seem to have encountered such rims, so yes, it is
:hard to understand that any manufacturer would produce such an utterly
:useless design!
:Are you sure they aren't cheap Chinese knockoffs of a normally good
:quality product?

No, they're real. And they suck. I can believe 30 minutes to put a
tire on them.

Why he hasn't gotten something less crappy, I don't
know. Oh. He woulnd't be able to bitch about it.

--
sig 81

On Wednesday, January 18, 2017 at 4:48:04 PM UTC-8, Phil Lee wrote:
jbeattie considered Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:10:48
-0800 (PST) the perfect time to write:

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 5:59:34 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 07:50:19 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-01-16 19:28, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 4:23:53 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 13:39, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 2:39:18 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:03:05 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-16 10:43, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:

:Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept
it if you :had to pump up the tires of your car every two
weeks? Yet most cyclists :think this is "normal".

Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to
volume than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for
the most part.


Truck tires are often operated around 50psi or higher. Like my
MTB tires are.

A truck tire weights as a much as TWO UCI minimum race bikes -- or
one DH bike. Now throw in the rim. You have peculiar expectations
for bicycles. You're theoretically perfect bike would weigh about
250lbs.

-- Jay Beattie.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. What Joerg's wants in a
bicycle are would be met by a 250cc dirt-motorcycle converted to
pedal power and the engine removed.

I find it astounding that so many others who ride in very harsh
conditions do NOT have the breakages or other problems that Joerg
does.


According to several bicycle shop owners they do. Many said that two
factors allowed them to survive as a business:

1. Mountain bikers breaking stuff all the time.

2. Department store bike buyers who needed help and found that the store
that sold their bikes was less than helpful.

Unlike cars, which never need to be fixed, and that's why there are no auto repair shops. http://tinyurl.com/jba5fgb


Care to compare the number of vehicles plus the miles traveled? Maybe
then it becomes more clear. Cars are way more reliable than bicycles.
Especially if you buy top quality cars like we did. Other than regular
scheduled maintenance there were no breakdowns in the whole two decades
we own them. None, as in zero. Not even one flat tire. Try that with a
bicycle.

You talk about your auto escapades as hauling a half a cord of wood in
your SUV. You describe your bicycle riding as speeding down rocky
hills, leaping over bumps and unexpectedly diving into lakes.

If you drove your car the way that you claim to ride your bike I think
that you would have a very different concept of how bullet proof your
car is.

I've spent considerable time around trucks that haul heavy loads over
unimproved roads and my experience was that they definitely did
require frequent repairs.

I've also been around off the road racing cars and they took even more
maintenance than the trucks.

As usual, you are not comparing apples and apples.

I ride with a guy who races motorcycles. He can go through a set of tires over the course of weekend -- and they cost a mint. Talk about an expensive hobby.

-- Jay Beattie.

Only one set?
That must be a restricted formula.
When I used to help as an amateur mechanic for my neighbour, who raced
motorcycles to a national level, tyres lasted exactly one race.
likewise chains. Piston rings, one day, pistons, a weekend, cylinders
several times in a year, clutches before each meeting. Plus anything
that breaks, and of course, different internal gears and sprockets are
used for each circuit, to give the best gearing, along with different
pad compounds and disk diameters to suit circuit and conditions.
Various other parts were replaced on a regular basis as well, but it's
a long time ago now, so my list is not exhaustive. Tyres capable of
performing in the wet would be shredded in a couple of laps if the
circuit dried out.
The grinding from mud, dust, grit and sand creates even greater wear
on racing motocross bikes, and to increase performance, intake air is
barely filtered, if at all.

At the more extreme level (F1, Indy, NASCAR for cars, IoM-TT for
bikes), tyres are changed several times DURING the race, and the cars
or bikes are essentially new for each meeting, with ALL parts that can
possibly wear being replaced, and often other parts swapped for ones
more suitable for the different circuit!
The most extreme example I can think of off-hand is Formula E, where
the entire car is changed half-way through each race, when the battery
goes flat - so all the other allowed wear components are designed to
last only half a race!

That is a fairer comparison for a machine which you ride to it's
limits, not your false one of a softly tuned road vehicle, designed to
reach it's warranty period even if driven to the limits the road will
allow, if properly serviced and normal wear items replaced on
schedule.

On that continuum, I wonder where Joerg falls. It sometimes sounds like he's taking a Ford Taurus on the Baja 1000 -- a Taurus held together with hose clamps.

-- Jay Beattie.

Joerg considered Mon, 16 Jan 2017
10:01:41 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2017-01-05 08:31, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/5/2017 9:59 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-01-05 07:34, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 8:47:35 PM UTC-8, Phil
Lee wrote:
Joerg considered Wed, 04 Jan
2017
07:38:10 -0800 the perfect time to write:

On 2017-01-04 01:19, Tosspot wrote:
On 04/01/17 01:04, Joerg wrote:
Gentlemen,

Is there something stronger than the usual rubber
cement in
the patch kits? Ideally something that won't dry out
so fast
or where multiple cheap small tubes are available.

The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from
side
wall blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two
tenths of
an inch long. The tubes I use are super thick and,
therefore,
expensive. $15-20 each and that's not something to be
thrown
out lightly. Instead of the li'l REMA patches I need
to use
thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube but this
has to
be vulcanized/cemented really well.

UK, but must be available all over

http://www.tyre-equipment.co.uk/acat...r-Patches.html






Go up to 180mmx95mm and are less than a UKP per patch.


Thanks! Time for a trip to the autoparts store since
there is

http://www.vipal-usa.com/repair_line_e.html

Looks like a Brazilian company.


The 30mm patches are 13 squids per 100! Surely, surely
even
Joerg can't get through that amount that fast!


I hardly get flats but when I do they are hardcore.
Typically
caused by those notorious #%&^!! flimsy side walls of
bicycle
tires. Which is also why I am always on the lookout for
tires
with better side walls. For the MTB I found that Asian
ones do
better in that domain but haven't found any yet for the
road
bike. Will try CST, their Conquistare tires look
promising but I
could not find reviews.

Heavier tires are generally better and finally those
appeared for
29". For 700c it's still slim pickens.

You do know that 29" ARE 700c, both using a bead seat
diameter of
622mm? It's just that one description is used for MTB and
the other
for road use.

I have been told that many times. But my CX bike feels
absolutely
NOTHING like the 29er did. On that the wheels felt massive
and heavy.
On the CX bike they are nothing of the sort.


Phil should try to mount a 29" Intense Trail Taker tire or
similar on a 700c road bike. Then it would quickly sink in
why this will never work :-)


Joerg, don't be ridiculous. Phil Lee was correct.


Tires formally labeled as 29" are simply not available in 25mm. At least
AFAICT.

I know you struggle with the real world, and complex mathematical
concepts like wheel diameters, but surely even YOU can add 2x 25mm to
622mm, and conclude that the result is less than 29"!
Just in case, 672mm = 26.46, or in round figures, 26 1/2", so it's
hardly surprising that it is not mislabeled as 29"!

A 559mm 26x2.3 tire will mount on the rim but can't possibly fit inside
the frame or fork of a Bridgestone CB1. So what? A perfectly common
700-35C touring tire won't clear in your road bike either.

That unsuitably wide tires exist for any given rim diameter in any given
frame doesn't make them different ISO sizes. There are a spectrum of
widths for almost every ISO format, choice is good!


Well, there aren't skinny 29" tires.

The thing you need for compatibility is BEAD SEAT DIAMETER, which is
622mm for both the so-called 29" (which isn't really 29" except in
2.25" width, and even then only roughly), and so-called 700C (which
again, isn't really 700mm in diameter in anything other than 39mm
width either). The move from using overall diameter of a mounted and
inflated tyre to the use of bead seat diameters, as approved by ISO
and ETRTO is because it is only by using the bead seat diameter that
you can tell which tyre fits which rim.
And any 29", 700C, xx-622 will fit your rims, whatever width it may
be. Of course, it may not be the ideal width for the rim, or too wide
for the frame or forks, but it WILL mount on the rim.

GET IT?

I can only hope that you never have to deal with the complexities of
the various 26" formats!

p.s. A 700-18 ultralight tire would fit your road bike rim as well. For
you, I'd suggest a wider tire.


Yes, I had very narrow tires before and found that 25mm is better for
where I now ride. 28mm would theoretically fit but only when the rear is
very well trued which does not hold for long on my routes. I am also not
very talented for trueing a wheel.

Maybe that (along with your notable level of machinery abuse) is the
real reason you insist that only disk brakes are worth using.