A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Assembly of Di2



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old February 1st 20, 11:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Assembly of Di2

On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 5:33:12 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 9:12:21 PM UTC, wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 9:35:11 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 4:35:31 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 1:14:52 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
Maybe this little charmer from the local Ti builder. https://www.ticycles.com/products-bi...m-all-arounder

Are you kidding me? $1950 for a frame without a fork?

I was going to link to the Ti frame I think Lou is buying, but that might cause too much of a shock to many here.

-- Jay Beattie.


;-) According to my dealer frame is ready to ship next week.

Lou


Start a thread for it, Lou. Show us what it looks like. One of the pleasures of belonging to a virtual cycling community is sharing vicariously in other people's bikes that for one reason or another you'll never buy for yourself.

Andre Jute
Maybe I need a shortlist again


I might do that. We'll see. First I made some room by selling my two ATB's:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VWKuPtCmdv4p5WKE7
Jay might got some confirmation ;-)

Lou
Ads
  #62  
Old February 3rd 20, 12:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Assembly of Di2

On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 2:08:13 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, February 1, 2020 at 5:33:12 AM UTC+1, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 9:12:21 PM UTC, wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 9:35:11 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 4:35:31 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 1:14:52 AM UTC, jbeattie wrote:
Maybe this little charmer from the local Ti builder. https://www.ticycles.com/products-bi...m-all-arounder

Are you kidding me? $1950 for a frame without a fork?

I was going to link to the Ti frame I think Lou is buying, but that might cause too much of a shock to many here.

-- Jay Beattie.

;-) According to my dealer frame is ready to ship next week.

Lou


Start a thread for it, Lou. Show us what it looks like. One of the pleasures of belonging to a virtual cycling community is sharing vicariously in other people's bikes that for one reason or another you'll never buy for yourself.

Andre Jute
Maybe I need a shortlist again


I might do that. We'll see. First I made some room by selling my two ATB's:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VWKuPtCmdv4p5WKE7
Jay might got some confirmation ;-)

Lou


You showed that picture of how neat your garage is just to insult me didn't you?

I stopped into the local Steel Bike Shop and he is now selling Waterfords. He had examples of everything from a touring bike with those incredibly intricate lugs to an all-out steel racing bike which I would estimate to be the same weight at most top-end carbon fiber bikes.

While I was using his floor pump to put enough air in my tires to get the back rims on the ground, I asked him about Di2. Well, all of his personal bikes have Di2 and so he has everything from Ultegra, DuraAce to XTR. I brought my Stem Unit in and he tested it and it is fine. But in conversation he told me that you have to have both derailleurs plugged in before the system will work.

As an EE I can see absolutely no reason in the world for that but apparently the stem unit has to talk to both derailleurs to make sure that they are there before it will respond.

Well, the remaining wire for the front derailleur should come in tomorrow since it was out of stock in that length, and if it all works, I'll make all of the wiring neat and use the wire covers and complete the Redline. After I ride it some I'll put the cross knobbies back on it and I should be able to get a grand for it. That will allow me to complete the Emonda. Maybe I'll start it at $1,400 since a CX bike with disks and electronic shifting should be enough of a novelty around here to get it moving.

  #63  
Old February 3rd 20, 02:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Assembly of Di2

On 2/2/2020 6:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

While I was using his floor pump to put enough air in my tires to get the back rims on the ground, I asked him about Di2. Well, all of his personal bikes have Di2 and so he has everything from Ultegra, DuraAce to XTR. I brought my Stem Unit in and he tested it and it is fine. But in conversation he told me that you have to have both derailleurs plugged in before the system will work.

As an EE I can see absolutely no reason in the world for that but apparently the stem unit has to talk to both derailleurs to make sure that they are there before it will respond.


If that were true, wouldn't a wiring or other problem with the front
derailleur mean you couldn't shift gears in the rear?

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #64  
Old February 3rd 20, 04:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Assembly of Di2

On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 5:37:16 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/2/2020 6:27 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

While I was using his floor pump to put enough air in my tires to get the back rims on the ground, I asked him about Di2. Well, all of his personal bikes have Di2 and so he has everything from Ultegra, DuraAce to XTR. I brought my Stem Unit in and he tested it and it is fine. But in conversation he told me that you have to have both derailleurs plugged in before the system will work.

As an EE I can see absolutely no reason in the world for that but apparently the stem unit has to talk to both derailleurs to make sure that they are there before it will respond.


If that were true, wouldn't a wiring or other problem with the front
derailleur mean you couldn't shift gears in the rear?

--
- Frank Krygowski


Exactly, but the wiring I have is good, the parts I've been able to test are good and the only thing missing is the front derailleur cable.

He said that you could do without a front derailleur but only if it was set-up properly.
  #65  
Old February 3rd 20, 09:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Assembly of Di2

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?


Received the cable and hooked up the front derailleur. Absolutely no change.. Pushing the button on the stem unit has no effect. Holding the button down is a little difficult but it also has no effect. Pushing a lever gear shifter has no effect.

The one part that I bought that could be a problem is the external battery mount. (screaming) From the really bad manuals of Shimano, they seem to say that there are two types: a BM1 and a BM100. Now the one I have seems to be a BM2 though I can't see any difference.

I have a spare BM1-I which looks identical to the BM2. Installing the battery line to the BM1-I and inserting the battery seems to have no effect.

The Shimano manual says that the battery charger maintains a yellow light while charging the battery. I install the battery and it only stays on for a second or two meaning the battery is fully charged.

So, I have a complete group that all worked together originally except for the external battery mount. The Shimano manual on "synchronized shifting" seems to indicate that the battery mount has some sort of intelligence in it because you have to have at least BM-100 for synchronized shifting to work..

In any case, does anyone have the slightest idea what might be happening?
  #66  
Old February 4th 20, 07:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Assembly of Di2

On Monday, February 3, 2020 at 12:23:32 PM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?


Received the cable and hooked up the front derailleur. Absolutely no change. Pushing the button on the stem unit has no effect. Holding the button down is a little difficult but it also has no effect. Pushing a lever gear shifter has no effect.

The one part that I bought that could be a problem is the external battery mount. (screaming) From the really bad manuals of Shimano, they seem to say that there are two types: a BM1 and a BM100. Now the one I have seems to be a BM2 though I can't see any difference.

I have a spare BM1-I which looks identical to the BM2. Installing the battery line to the BM1-I and inserting the battery seems to have no effect.

The Shimano manual says that the battery charger maintains a yellow light while charging the battery. I install the battery and it only stays on for a second or two meaning the battery is fully charged.

So, I have a complete group that all worked together originally except for the external battery mount. The Shimano manual on "synchronized shifting" seems to indicate that the battery mount has some sort of intelligence in it because you have to have at least BM-100 for synchronized shifting to work.

In any case, does anyone have the slightest idea what might be happening?


OK, Since the Shimano manuals are almost impossible to read I dug around on the Internet and discovered some third party videos that were a lot more informative. EVERY component in the Di2 has intelligence in it. You can use the internal battery charger to connect to your windows computer to download a program to understand what the hell is going on in your Di2 system. Then you can connect the battery charger through the charging port on the EW90 A/B unit to look at everything in your system and tell what it is all doing, what the level of firmware is and whether something needs to be updated or not.

This is a hell of a lot smarter than I thought it would be. This smart-shift program was available very shortly after the Di2 hit the streets and all it is is an update of the firmware.

What the hell the battery has to do with it I couldn't say but I'm pretty certain that I may have to replace the external battery DN2 with the older DN100. Why this would be is pretty uncertain but I will take it up to the shop when he opens and allow him to set it up the first time. It isn't as if I am in a big hurry to have the Redline running and I want to know how this stuff works to be able to install it on my Emonda which is going to be first class.

I did discover a cross reference listing on the Shimano site that shows all of the parts which are interchangeable. There are so many interchangeable parts that once you have the proper setup you can put perhaps half of all of the Di2 parts made interchangeably onto your bike - that is you could start with a lower end stuff and gradually work your way up to DuraAce though I'm not sure why you would do that. None of the components appear to be lighter enough to even mention.

I do like one of the functions which is an automatic trim feature where as you shift the rear derailleur up and down the front derailleur automatically trims back and forth. On 11 speed systems this is a very nice feature so that the front derailleur simply doesn't get a worn cage. I cannot hear well enough to hear the front derailleur dragging unless it is very quiet so around traffic the front often is dragging and wearing it rapidly. And front derailleurs for compact cranks are very hard to come by.

In any case the system isn't as stupidly designed as I thought though I sure as hell wouldn't have done things like put intelligence into the battery mount just so it could keep track of the battery charge when it would be just as easy to put it in the stem unit. Putting intelligence into the shifters is sort of dumb but I suppose when they were releasing this stuff they didn't have any idea what it might develop into. For instance - the B stem unit can add extra buttons. These could be used for bar-end shifters on TT bars or they can be mounted on the handlebars near the stem so on stage races you can get your arms way in on breakaways. Or of all things - if you have a Garmin on your bike you can use the buttons to go through screens to see a route or speed etc.
  #67  
Old February 5th 20, 04:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Assembly of Di2

On 2/4/2020 1:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

I do like one of the functions which is an automatic trim feature where as you shift the rear derailleur up and down the front derailleur automatically trims back and forth. On 11 speed systems this is a very nice feature so that the front derailleur simply doesn't get a worn cage.


Meh, old news. See
http://www.bikerecyclery.com/suntour...amp-near-mint/


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #68  
Old February 5th 20, 04:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Assembly of Di2

On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 7:21:36 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/4/2020 1:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

I do like one of the functions which is an automatic trim feature where as you shift the rear derailleur up and down the front derailleur automatically trims back and forth. On 11 speed systems this is a very nice feature so that the front derailleur simply doesn't get a worn cage.


Meh, old news. See
http://www.bikerecyclery.com/suntour...amp-near-mint/


--
- Frank Krygowski


If you think that actually worked you can buy that. I have a friend that is "returning" to the "good old days" with bikes circa 1955. You sound the same sort.
  #69  
Old February 7th 20, 06:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Assembly of Di2

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?


To get back to the reason for this post: It turns out that there are very many components in Di2 since it has been out over 10 years now. You can interchange some parts with others without changing the operation at all. For instance, one of the early Ultegra groups was 6870. But it didn't offer hydraulic disks so you could interchange the levers with R785's and get the hydraulics built in. You could also use some years of DuraAce levers. The list of interchangeable parts with the 6870's is rather extensive. You could even use the latest ST-8050 but not the ST-8000 or 9000.

What Shimano got by making all these alterations isn't very clear. Perhaps the idea was to force people to buy "up".

In any case one of the most important things to know is that every component including the battery holder, has intelligence in it. (integrated circuits) And ALL of them MUST work together in at least the interchangeable lists..

Well, the ST-6870 can only use ONE external battery mount (the BM-DN100) Yet there are about five or so different external battery mounts that all look identical and all they accomplish is to put power on the wiring.

Well, for some reason I ordered a battery mount knowing they were nothing but battery mounts and then forgot and bought a second. They were both different types and of course neither of them were the right type. This is why I was unable to get the unit to start-up. The requisite part is presently on order but it has to come from Japan.

Someone suggested that these battery holders were all made unique to prevent someone copying them and selling as a second party which has been a problem with Shimano with things like chain rings and cassettes and chains where Shimano loses money each year. I suppose that might be possible but for whatever reason it is an absolute pain in the butt.

As far as I can tell, these levers can all get the "modern" firmware to give them all of the functions of the modern levers such as the automatic front derailleur automatically re-aligning itself to never rub as you change up and down. Or automatically following the most intelligent gear ratios - that is, when you are shifting up the cogs in the big ring, it will automatically drop down from the big ring and go the other way two steps on the cogs so that you are in the next higher ratio without even having to think about it.

But it ALL falls back to knowing what parts are interchangeable and which aren't. You can get this off of the Shimano Di2 site since they really aren't stingy with information. Just that a lot of it is very poorly written because it is written as briefly as possible since they are going it in a dozen languages.

Campy EPS does NOT operate the same way as Di2 and SRAM electronic shifting also is totally different. So if you get used to one you probably won't want to change. The SRAM has radio links instead of wires so you can replace any component individually and only have to match the radio links like you do connecting to WiFi.

While I'm told that Campy EPS works better, all of the installation guides seem to be missing from YouTube. So I'm not going to change over any time soon.
  #70  
Old February 18th 20, 01:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Assembly of Di2

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 9:43:42 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
It occurs to me that I should install the hydraulic brakes before I attach the electronic wiring. What do you think?


After watching the youtube video's of how to bleed the brakes I gave it a try and it was so easy that you needn't worry. If you're anything of a mechanic you can do it in a snap. The first one I tried was the rear brake. I tilted the front of the bike up a little in the stand. I was worried that the mineral oil that Shimano uses as a hydraulic medium could get bubbles caught in it but it bled in a snap and without any problems. The front was even easier. There was a difference in the lever pull but there is an adjustment just below the lever bleed opening that you can use after you finish the bleeding to adjust reach.

As I told you before, I had bought the external battery carrier and it was wrong. Initially I had bought the second one at the same time because I had forgotten I had bought the first. Both were different versions and both were wrong.

Then I found a list of components that would match. This is a rather large list of interchangeable parts. But there are TWO parts that do not have any interchangeability - the external battery carrier and the internal battery.. There are, I think, five versions of the external battery carrier but the interior battery is the same on all of them. I think (my list may not be complete)

When I tried either of the two battery carriers I had mounted and everything connected NOTHING would happen when I tried to turn the system on. It was a dead as a doornail. So dead that I was sure that there was something wrong.

Today I got the correct battery carrier in. All three of them look absolutely identical.

I just hooked up the correct one and it not only lit off the controller but the entire system worked instantly. It has the latest program in it as well and does the automatic front derailleur correction As you're shifting the rear up and down. Playing around with it I could also enter the "fine adjustment" mode where you can do fine adjustments on the rear derailleur.

I have an Ultegra chain to go with it so I have to get one of those little crock pots for dipping stuff into melted marshmallows, clean the chain very carefully and then melt the wax and molybdenum disulfate lubricate together and completely wax the chain. You have to leave the chain in this stuff until the chain is completely heated through and the wax and moly have penetrated the links. You can see this by the fact that little bubbles come off of the chain. When they stop you're generally good but I leave it in another 20 minutes. When you take the chain out do it with tongs or pliers because it is just slightly below boiling.

I used some old wax to do the chain on my Lemond and it has been totally quiet the last 150 miles and shifts beautifully. The problem is that when you put used chains into it without completely cleaning them there's always a little dirt left behind and over the years this stuff has gotten rather filthy. So I have new wax and new moly for the Redline and the soon to be assembled Trek Emonda.

I can tell you that unlike one very good mechanic told me, ALL of the software is upgradeable. One thing he did mention that I took to heart is to use all Shimano parts. So the only thing I am presently missing is the stem controller unit for the Trek (the shipper made a mistake and swapped labels on two shipments and that is taking a lot longer than it should to straighten away.) and the internal wires for the Trek. The Trek will still need a set of Shimano Wheels since all of mine except the disk set are for Campy. They aren't due until late next month - straight pull spokes on 50 mm deep carbon rims. This time I will start them with Campy carbon brake shoes. Those are the way to go now that I've used a set on the front and can tell the difference between them and the blue or basalt shoes.

I was sure that I had a bearing puller for the Trek but I can't find it anywhere. But of course my whole life is misplacing things these days. I'm blaming it on the medicine but the other old guys I ride with are doing the same thing. But that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

n any case IF you have the correct components or their interchangeable matches, the system fires right up. The only think I have figured out how to do is turn it off. I thought that you just pushed the stem button but that doesn't seem to stop anything so I just unplugged the battery.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2009 ERGO dis-assembly/re-assembly Qui si parla Campagnolo Techniques 10 February 10th 09 01:44 AM
BC wheel assembly zfreak220 Unicycling 0 May 22nd 08 11:05 PM
BC wheel assembly poofengle Unicycling 0 May 22nd 08 05:21 AM
BC wheel assembly vanpaun Unicycling 1 May 21st 08 11:26 PM
HELP w/ KH/onza hub assembly PLEASE lancerfan119 Unicycling 5 July 25th 05 09:23 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.