7 Speed Shimano Wheels

Sooner or later I'm going to need to get new wheels for my older bike.
Apparently something went awry with the rim / spoke nipple area of my
current wheels according to my local expert and again, according to him,
I 'should' replace the wheels sometime. So I'm in a slow market for
wheels meaning I'm looking, but will buy only when I see a definite need
or I get a can't refuse bargain.

I've been looking at eBay and I find a good selection of wheels at
reasonable prices from sellers who have upgraded to expensive wheels. I
see, as advised to me in another thread, that I can get what I take to
be good wheels for $200 or even less.

My problem is that all the wheels I've seen (except for one with tubular
rims) say they are compatible for Shimano 8,9,10 speed cogsets. I have a
'short arm' Dura Ace with a 7 speed set.

First, I do wish to upgrade my cogset to one with lower gearing anyway.
Therefore I wonder if I can use my current derailleur with an 8 or 9
speed cogset (is this bolt on?) or if I need to stick to the 7's, can I
easily adapt one of these 8,9,10 speed rear wheels to my 7 speed cogset?

I have strong mechanical skills from motorcycles, but lack specific
bicycle wrenching skills. I do have access to a machine shop, but would
prefer (greatly prefer) bolt on solutions. Thanks. -Paul

Paul Cassel wrote:
snip
My problem is that all the wheels I've seen (except for one with tubular
rims) say they are compatible for Shimano 8,9,10 speed cogsets. I have a
'short arm' Dura Ace with a 7 speed set.

First, I do wish to upgrade my cogset to one with lower gearing anyway.
Therefore I wonder if I can use my current derailleur with an 8 or 9
speed cogset (is this bolt on?) or if I need to stick to the 7's, can I
easily adapt one of these 8,9,10 speed rear wheels to my 7 speed cogset?
snip

If the stuff you have is very old, there were some incompatible bits in
earlier DuraAce, which is not forward compatible with newer Shimano
stuff.
If the rear derailieur is not too old, it *should* be compatible with
8/9/10-sp.

Default suggestion in r.b.t - consult the Oracle -
http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html
Sheldon has the full info. on compatability betwee the various Shimano
odds'n'ends, and also between manufacturers (Campag etc.).

If the wheels are on Shimano hubs (or hubs that use a Shimano freehub
body), you could replace the 8/9/10 speed freehub body and casette with
the 7-speed freehub body and cassette you currently own.
This will make the hub shorter, so:
1. you may also need to transplant the axle from your current wheels,
or cut down the one in the new wheels (the seven speed can be shorter).
2. you probably will need to re-dish the wheel so that the rim is
re-centred over the shortened hub.

That'd be the cheapest option, and you could probably do it all, except
perhaps the the re-dish.

Given that you might be getting a new cassette anyway to change the
gearing, if you also buy a 7-sp freehub body and axle, you can have two
complete wheelsets (bar tubes/tyres), with different gearing etc. -
might as well keep the old wheels complete as spares?
With some careful work with spacers/washers etc. you could also set
them up so that they can be swapped onto your bike without too much
monkeying around with the rear derailieur/indexing and (if the rims are
in the same ballpark width and depth-wise), the brakes

Any other option depends on what kind of gear shifters you have - if
you have 7-sp, you may be looking at changing them to support
8/9/10-sp., or changing them to friction (ie non-indexed) shifting.

I've seen bikes running 8-sp casettes on indexed 7-sp shifters, but
although it worked, it didn't work really well. I'd imagine the
shifting/indexing would be even worse with 9/10 casettes on 7 shifters.

Hope this helps,

bookieb

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article ,
Paul Cassel wrote:
Sooner or later I'm going to need to get new wheels for my older bike.
Apparently something went awry with the rim / spoke nipple area of my
current wheels according to my local expert and again, according to him,
I 'should' replace the wheels sometime. So I'm in a slow market for
wheels meaning I'm looking, but will buy only when I see a definite need
or I get a can't refuse bargain.

_ Maybe you should get a new "expert". It's a fairly
straightforward job to put new rims on old hubs. A well
maintained hub should last many many miles and at least two or
three rims. If you're happy with your current hubs and gears,
just rebuild the wheels with new rims. You might or might not
want to replace the spokes at the same time[1]. If you can find a
rim that matches the ERD[2] of your old rim, there is no reason
to replace the spokes if they are relatively modern stainless
steel and aren't damaged.

_ Harris cyclery sells a nice pair of older 7spd hubs and can
easily built up a nice wheelset for you for just a little more
than you'd pay for used stuff on ebay. Ebay is great for getting
hard to find stuff, but it's not particularly cheap for the most
part.

_ Booker C. Bense

[1]- If you have a shop do this, most places will require that
you replace the spokes as well. I would too if I ran a shop since
you can't really make any kind of guarantee of the work if you
don't replace the spokes. However, putting a new rim on old
spokes is a pretty good place to start with learning to build
wheels. If you're at all handy with tools, wheelbuilding is
very straightforward, just requires a bit of patience.

[2]- http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBQvuOlGTWTAjn5N/lAQEYMQP/d8bJ/Uif6+I5VBJROCN8p7KQjQMb3qGA
+889EWh/7koHsJFw92Em+fGGPgLL+QYlbS2u5zANCXsuXAeCJ4ICSvsUxD ryV+49
NDQLOLmuxDPz/TqWclNoUkMFbjowj+KzpbIDqwPe+Bn9vlensXZKZ7adv+ErLbW 2
jiV8pe6vEbw=
=xlu2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:15:07 -0700, tsgtesting wrote:

If the wheels are on Shimano hubs (or hubs that use a Shimano freehub
body), you could replace the 8/9/10 speed freehub body and casette with
the 7-speed freehub body and cassette you currently own. This will make
the hub shorter, so:

If it's an older (late eighties) 7spd cassette, and the rims are otherwise
in decent shape, but you want to upgrade the rear sprockets, grab an Sram
8spd cassette, break it apart (small set screw on back), and using the old
spacers that are on your wheel (very important, the spacers size that is)
create your own custom "cassette". The New sprocket widths differ ever so
slightly from the old, but not enough for the index (or friction)
shifting to be affected. You'll want to get a new chain if you do this.

If it's a 7spd screw on freewheel, those are readily available, but the
wheels you'll have to get built or buy on Fleabay.

If it's a non-indexed system, I'd just get a modern 8spd cassette wheel
(dirt cheap prebuilts available online). 4mm wider axle, but you should
just be able to spring apart the rear drops when installing (or
permenantly space them)

wrote:
Paul Cassel wrote:


If the stuff you have is very old, there were some incompatible bits in
earlier DuraAce, which is not forward compatible with newer Shimano
stuff.
If the rear derailieur is not too old, it *should* be compatible with
8/9/10-sp.

Default suggestion in r.b.t - consult the Oracle -
http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html
Sheldon has the full info. on compatability betwee the various Shimano
odds'n'ends, and also between manufacturers (Campag etc.).

!! Just the info I needed. I finally found some info on my setup. Before
seeing this area of his site I thought I was running a one off. I think
I've seen Sheldon post here (I've lurked for a while). Thanks to you for
pointing this out and he for creating it.

If the wheels are on Shimano hubs (or hubs that use a Shimano freehub
body), you could replace the 8/9/10 speed freehub body and casette with
the 7-speed freehub body and cassette you currently own.
This will make the hub shorter, so:
1. you may also need to transplant the axle from your current wheels,
or cut down the one in the new wheels (the seven speed can be shorter).
2. you probably will need to re-dish the wheel so that the rim is
re-centred over the shortened hub.

That'd be the cheapest option, and you could probably do it all, except
perhaps the the re-dish.

Given that you might be getting a new cassette anyway to change the
gearing, if you also buy a 7-sp freehub body and axle, you can have two
complete wheelsets (bar tubes/tyres), with different gearing etc. -
might as well keep the old wheels complete as spares?
With some careful work with spacers/washers etc. you could also set
them up so that they can be swapped onto your bike without too much
monkeying around with the rear derailieur/indexing and (if the rims are
in the same ballpark width and depth-wise), the brakes

My current setup seems to be failing. The guy who owns the bike (I plan
on buying it) says there is some problem emerging in the rims and the
hubs are very low quality so I think I'm not going to try to create a
two wheelset arrangement. I'd just leave things alone if I thought
these wheels would hold up, but I'm told they aren't going to much
longer and the parts that still function aren't very good anyway.

Any other option depends on what kind of gear shifters you have - if
you have 7-sp, you may be looking at changing them to support
8/9/10-sp., or changing them to friction (ie non-indexed) shifting.

I've seen bikes running 8-sp casettes on indexed 7-sp shifters, but
although it worked, it didn't work really well. I'd imagine the
shifting/indexing would be even worse with 9/10 casettes on 7 shifters.

I'm content with the 7 speeds although I do need a different gear ratio
set. I note from this chart that my job as far as the gearing is much
easier than I anticipated because I can just swap my 23 sprocket for a
28 which, I hope, will give me some reasonable gearing for where i live
in the mtns. My chainrings are 45 and 52.

Hope this helps,

It has enormously. Thank you. -paul

maxo wrote:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:15:07 -0700, tsgtesting wrote:


If the wheels are on Shimano hubs (or hubs that use a Shimano freehub
body), you could replace the 8/9/10 speed freehub body and casette with
the 7-speed freehub body and cassette you currently own. This will make
the hub shorter, so:


If it's an older (late eighties) 7spd cassette, and the rims are otherwise
in decent shape, but you want to upgrade the rear sprockets, grab an Sram
8spd cassette, break it apart (small set screw on back), and using the old
spacers that are on your wheel (very important, the spacers size that is)
create your own custom "cassette". The New sprocket widths differ ever so
slightly from the old, but not enough for the index (or friction)
shifting to be affected. You'll want to get a new chain if you do this.

If it's a 7spd screw on freewheel, those are readily available, but the
wheels you'll have to get built or buy on Fleabay.

If it's a non-indexed system, I'd just get a modern 8spd cassette wheel
(dirt cheap prebuilts available online). 4mm wider axle, but you should
just be able to spring apart the rear drops when installing (or
permenantly space them)

Much to my embarassment, I don't know if it's indexed. I have the two
standard levers on the down tube. Clearly the one on the left (chainring
shifter) does not have detents because it's sensitive to position for
proper shifting. Maybe it had detents once and they're worn. I *think*
these are friction shifters because there is a tensioning screw which
adjusts the tension / shift effort.

I have a mtn bike which has shifters you just trigger to switch. I'm
sure that's an index shifter. However, if there is a transitory version
where one moves a lever sequentially like a fricition shifter, but it is
an indexed one, well, that I don't know. I'd feel stupid walking into a
bike shop asking these questions. I felt dopey enough when I got this
bike and I needed all new cables. I had no idea the NAMES of the cables
or what characteristics they needed. Then said it wasn't my bike
(borrowed) & that created some tension until they understood I hadn't
stolen it.

I guess I'll take apart the rear wheel and answer some of these
questions so I know enough to ask more intelligent/detailed questions. I
had no idea things had changed so much.

Thanks for your informative reply. -Paul

Booker C. Bense wrote:


_ Maybe you should get a new "expert". It's a fairly
straightforward job to put new rims on old hubs. A well
maintained hub should last many many miles and at least two or
three rims. If you're happy with your current hubs and gears,
just rebuild the wheels with new rims. You might or might not
want to replace the spokes at the same time[1]. If you can find a
rim that matches the ERD[2] of your old rim, there is no reason
to replace the spokes if they are relatively modern stainless
steel and aren't damaged.

When he lent me the bike, he said the hubs were of very poor quality.
The entire wheelset was put on there so the bike could be sold as a bike
at the swap instead of a pile of parts. 'My' expert really is an expert
having tried to make a living as a pro bike racer and supplemented that
with being a bike wrench for many years until he recognized that this
isn't a lifetime thing to do.


_ Harris cyclery sells a nice pair of older 7spd hubs and can
easily built up a nice wheelset for you for just a little more
than you'd pay for used stuff on ebay. Ebay is great for getting
hard to find stuff, but it's not particularly cheap for the most
part.

_ Booker C. Bense

[1]- If you have a shop do this, most places will require that
you replace the spokes as well. I would too if I ran a shop since
you can't really make any kind of guarantee of the work if you
don't replace the spokes. However, putting a new rim on old
spokes is a pretty good place to start with learning to build
wheels. If you're at all handy with tools, wheelbuilding is
very straightforward, just requires a bit of patience.

[2]- http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm

Thanks. I'll check the prices and see if a Harris supplied hubset is the
better way to go. I used to lace up my own motorcycle wheels, but today
lack a truing stand and also don't know if there is a lot to bicycle
wheels that I don't know. I would not use these spokes anyway. I can't
see new rims, new hubs and then these poor quality spokes and nipples.
Poor economy that. Thanks for the links.

-paul

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:18:06 -0600, Paul Cassel
wrote:

maxo wrote:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 07:15:07 -0700, tsgtesting wrote:


If the wheels are on Shimano hubs (or hubs that use a Shimano freehub
body), you could replace the 8/9/10 speed freehub body and casette with
the 7-speed freehub body and cassette you currently own. This will make
the hub shorter, so:


If it's an older (late eighties) 7spd cassette, and the rims are otherwise
in decent shape, but you want to upgrade the rear sprockets, grab an Sram
8spd cassette, break it apart (small set screw on back), and using the old
spacers that are on your wheel (very important, the spacers size that is)
create your own custom "cassette". The New sprocket widths differ ever so
slightly from the old, but not enough for the index (or friction)
shifting to be affected. You'll want to get a new chain if you do this.

If it's a 7spd screw on freewheel, those are readily available, but the
wheels you'll have to get built or buy on Fleabay.

If it's a non-indexed system, I'd just get a modern 8spd cassette wheel
(dirt cheap prebuilts available online). 4mm wider axle, but you should
just be able to spring apart the rear drops when installing (or
permenantly space them)


There are zillions of very inexpensive, but of course dated 7 speed wheelsets on
ebay. You should be outta there for about a hundred wth something perfectly
rideable. Not fancy mind you but better than that stuff you got.

Much to my embarassment, I don't know if it's indexed. I have the two
standard levers on the down tube. Clearly the one on the left (chainring
shifter) does not have detents because it's sensitive to position for
proper shifting. Maybe it had detents once and they're worn. I *think*
these are friction shifters because there is a tensioning screw which
adjusts the tension / shift effort.

The left one will be friction only. The right one will either be friction or
switchable from pure friction to a detent using the D-ring that looks like it
would otherwise adjust tension.

Ron

I have a mtn bike which has shifters you just trigger to switch. I'm
sure that's an index shifter. However, if there is a transitory version
where one moves a lever sequentially like a fricition shifter, but it is
an indexed one, well, that I don't know. I'd feel stupid walking into a
bike shop asking these questions. I felt dopey enough when I got this
bike and I needed all new cables. I had no idea the NAMES of the cables
or what characteristics they needed. Then said it wasn't my bike
(borrowed) & that created some tension until they understood I hadn't
stolen it.

I guess I'll take apart the rear wheel and answer some of these
questions so I know enough to ask more intelligent/detailed questions. I
had no idea things had changed so much.

Thanks for your informative reply. -Paul

Paul Cassel wrote:
wrote:
Paul Cassel wrote:

snip
I'm content with the 7 speeds although I do need a different gear ratio
set. I note from this chart that my job as far as the gearing is much
easier than I anticipated because I can just swap my 23 sprocket for a
28 which, I hope, will give me some reasonable gearing for where i live
in the mtns. My chainrings are 45 and 52.


Just watch the size of the gaps in tooth count between the cogs.

Presumably your're running somthing like 12-23, the last step being
21-23 or 20-23. If you make that 21-28 or 20-28, that's a real big
jump. Rough on the chain and derailieur, really poor shifting (if
it'll go at all). There's also a big gap in ratio from the 21 to the 28
- I suspect you'll frequently find yourself in a situation where the
45-28 is too low and the 45-21 too high.

You could look at mix and matching the casettes to keep the biggest
single jump down to 4 or or 5 teeth, but from what you say about the
current wheelset (suspect rims, old/low quality hubs etc), I'd suspect
that the rear cogs are carrying some significant wear. Look for an
asymmetrical, "hooked" shape to the teeth, indicating significant wear.

If this is the case, your current cassette is both worn and isn't
giving you the range of gear ratios you want. I'd spring for a new
cassette in the right range (about €30-€35 in this neck of the
woods). For a new cassette, I'd get a new chain to match (€15 and up
for somthing reasonable). You're on a budget of course, but a new
cassette and chain can transform the shifting, esp. on an older bike.

In any case, check the chain, cassette and chainrings for wear. Be a
bit careful of a new chain on old cogs, or vice-versa - it may have a
tendency to skip.

Good luck,

bookieb.

wrote:


Just watch the size of the gaps in tooth count between the cogs.

Presumably your're running somthing like 12-23, the last step being
21-23 or 20-23. If you make that 21-28 or 20-28, that's a real big
jump. Rough on the chain and derailieur, really poor shifting (if
it'll go at all). There's also a big gap in ratio from the 21 to the 28
- I suspect you'll frequently find yourself in a situation where the
45-28 is too low and the 45-21 too high.

Ah, so there is a gap issue too. I didn't know that. I have ordered the
Brandt book from Amazon, but I don't know if it'll cover the cogset
issues. I am running the 12-23, but I also learned I can get a smaller
chainring. That will make a big difference.

You could look at mix and matching the casettes to keep the biggest
single jump down to 4 or or 5 teeth, but from what you say about the
current wheelset (suspect rims, old/low quality hubs etc), I'd suspect
that the rear cogs are carrying some significant wear. Look for an
asymmetrical, "hooked" shape to the teeth, indicating significant wear.

If this is the case, your current cassette is both worn and isn't
giving you the range of gear ratios you want. I'd spring for a new
cassette in the right range (about €30-€35 in this neck of the
woods). For a new cassette, I'd get a new chain to match (€15 and up
for somthing reasonable). You're on a budget of course, but a new
cassette and chain can transform the shifting, esp. on an older bike.

In any case, check the chain, cassette and chainrings for wear. Be a
bit careful of a new chain on old cogs, or vice-versa - it may have a
tendency to skip.

I do have some wear on my teeth not only some assemetry but also chips
or chunks out of the teeth. I suppose that may have come from rocks or
sand, but the problem seems to be on the trailing edges too. Clearly the
chain can't have tolerated this without some adverse wear as well.

Curiously, I"m not feeling very money restricted. I only do not wish to
put silly money into a 'black hole' if this bike doesn't work out - but
it does seem to be doing ok by me so far.

When I came out of lurk on this ng, I was 90% convinced I had a bike
which was hopelessly dated. Thus I needed to buy a new bike which I'd
priced at anywhere from U$1k to U$2.5k. The experts here gave me enough
good info that I think I'll stick to this setup for at least a bit
longer thus I have some surplus money to throw at the current ride.

Of course, now that I want to keep this bike, the fellow who owns it (he
lent it to me) seems less than thrilled about selling it. I may end up
with a long term lease of some sort. I'm ok putting money into the bike
even on those terms because I get fair use so think me returning the
bike better than I got it is appropriate.

I have, for example, gotten it to work. When I got it, it had no cables
and then would not shift in the rear outside of the middle three or four
sprockets. The bike shifts "snick-snick" now almost instantly which I
find enormously pleasing. There is no hunting or other delay on the
shift. Move the lever, and without even a tiny wasted bit of pedal
motion, I'm in the next gear.

Being reassured by this group that I"m not riding a laughable POS has
vastly increased my riding enjoyment. Mentals play a huge part in all of
this.

-paul