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1950's style hybrid electric bicycles
http://www.designboom.com/technology/luca-agnelli-milano-bici-milan-electric-bicycles-04-18-2016/
http://www.agnellimilanobici.com 1950's retro style hybrid electric bicycle for the 70 year old nostalgia aficionado, who wants a bicycle with power augmentation, built onto a sprung mountain bike frame. Kickstand, fenders, big headlight, chrome, white-wall fat tires, and gas tank are included. It's everything I wanted in a bicycle when I was 15 years old. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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1950's style hybrid electric bicycles
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1950's style hybrid electric bicycles
On 6/3/2017 8:58 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
http://www.designboom.com/technology/luca-agnelli-milano-bici-milan-electric-bicycles-04-18-2016/ http://www.agnellimilanobici.com 1950's retro style hybrid electric bicycle for the 70 year old nostalgia aficionado, who wants a bicycle with power augmentation, built onto a sprung mountain bike frame. Kickstand, fenders, big headlight, chrome, white-wall fat tires, and gas tank are included. It's everything I wanted in a bicycle when I was 15 years old. It's kinda disappointing to go to all that work when he is using a cheap frame and fork... It would look a lot better if those were done custom--and that can still be done cheaply just by buying a cheap steel frame and cutting out the tubes and re-using all the end parts. Also I probably posted in the past: those monark reproduction forks are scary. I got mine some years back now, but the bolts in it were made wrong such that one-half of them would not stay tight. I had to machine special shouldered bolts to make mine ride-able. ,,, It's possible they've changed them since I suppose, I have not seen any recent example IRL. The only more-recent one I've seen close-up photos of online was just like mine; that guy had used loctite to try to get the bolts to hold. |
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1950's style hybrid electric bicycles
On 6/4/2017 2:44 PM, DougC wrote:
... those monark reproduction forks are scary. I got mine some years back now, but the bolts in it were made wrong such that one-half of them would not stay tight. I had to machine special shouldered bolts to make mine ride-able. ,,, It's possible they've changed them since I suppose, I have not seen any recent example IRL. The only more-recent one I've seen close-up photos of online was just like mine; that guy had used loctite to try to get the bolts to hold. That's a shame. While I'm not interested in either one, the Monark design looks more sensible to me than the alternative shown at http://www.designboom.com/wp-content...oom-header.jpg with the near-horizontal spring. That one pivots about the fork crown. Seems to me you'd want the unsprung mass to be moving more vertically as with the Monark, rather than almost horizontally. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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1950's style hybrid electric bicycles
On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 2:58:38 AM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
http://www.designboom.com/technology/luca-agnelli-milano-bici-milan-electric-bicycles-04-18-2016/ http://www.agnellimilanobici.com 1950's retro style hybrid electric bicycle for the 70 year old nostalgia aficionado, who wants a bicycle with power augmentation, built onto a sprung mountain bike frame. Kickstand, fenders, big headlight, chrome, white-wall fat tires, and gas tank are included. It's everything I wanted in a bicycle when I was 15 years old. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 I think your memory is going, Jeff. At 15 you would already have been too smart to fall for this crap. " first [sic] apprenticed as an antique furniture restorer, his bikes resolve technical and aesthetic problems by adapting to continual changes in function and form." That's the designer speaking of himself in what he fondly imagines is the third person. Forget the resulting non sequitur and the uncapitalized sentence and the extra space -- we get enough of that illiterate **** here on RBT from Jeff Daniels -- but instead translate that sentence into English, in which it reads, "Because I'm only a journeyman antique furniture faker, whenever my bikes look like **** or fall apart [as Doug Cimperman points out], instead of fixing the problem, I leave it to bite the credulous buyer in the balls, and build my next monstrosity." Even if this bike doesn't fall apart, as Doug says, and plants the rider on his face, there's another problem with that suspension. It pivots the lower steering inclination around the bottom of the head tube to compress a horizontal helical spring against the frame. Thus it "suspends" by moving the contact patch of the tire backwards and forwards, constantly changing the wheelbase of the bike and the effective angle determining the steering trail. In short, it is not a suspension device but a self-steering monstrosity, further aggravated by the uncontrolled weight transfer it causes. In addition the rear suspension commits the same self-steering by wheelbase-altering error, uncontrollaby adding or subtracting from the front error depending on the road and how true the bike tracks -- I'm not even smiling at that pun, because this bike will never track true even on a level, smooth road. The whole thing, if anyone ever manages to get it up to speed, say downhill, that bike will switch from dangerous understeer to lethal oversteer and back quite unpredictably, several times a second. Frankly, I wouldn't want a clown with such a poor grasp of geometry as luca agnelli (his rendition of his name) to "restore" any furniture I may sit on, never mind "design" a bicycle I would (refuse to) ride. Andre Jute I ask for no more than competence. Is that really too much? |
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1950's style hybrid electric bicycles
On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 5:54:00 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 2:58:38 AM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote: http://www.designboom.com/technology/luca-agnelli-milano-bici-milan-electric-bicycles-04-18-2016/ http://www.agnellimilanobici.com 1950's retro style hybrid electric bicycle for the 70 year old nostalgia aficionado, who wants a bicycle with power augmentation, built onto a sprung mountain bike frame. Kickstand, fenders, big headlight, chrome, white-wall fat tires, and gas tank are included. It's everything I wanted in a bicycle when I was 15 years old. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 I think your memory is going, Jeff. At 15 you would already have been too smart to fall for this crap. " first [sic] apprenticed as an antique furniture restorer, his bikes resolve technical and aesthetic problems by adapting to continual changes in function and form." That's the designer speaking of himself in what he fondly imagines is the third person. Forget the resulting non sequitur and the uncapitalized sentence and the extra space -- we get enough of that illiterate **** here on RBT from Jeff Daniels -- but instead translate that sentence into English, in which it reads, "Because I'm only a journeyman antique furniture faker, whenever my bikes look like **** or fall apart [as Doug Cimperman points out], instead of fixing the problem, I leave it to bite the credulous buyer in the balls, and build my next monstrosity." Even if this bike doesn't fall apart, as Doug says, and plants the rider on his face, there's another problem with that suspension. It pivots the lower steering inclination around the bottom of the head tube to compress a horizontal helical spring against the frame. Thus it "suspends" by moving the contact patch of the tire backwards and forwards, constantly changing the wheelbase of the bike and the effective angle determining the steering trail. In short, it is not a suspension device but a self-steering monstrosity, further aggravated by the uncontrolled weight transfer it causes. In addition the rear suspension commits the same self-steering by wheelbase-altering error, uncontrollaby adding or subtracting from the front error depending on the road and how true the bike tracks -- I'm not even smiling at that pun, because this bike will never track true even on a level, smooth road. The whole thing, if anyone ever manages to get it up to speed, say downhill, that bike will switch from dangerous understeer to lethal oversteer and back quite unpredictably, several times a second. Frankly, I wouldn't want a clown with such a poor grasp of geometry as luca agnelli (his rendition of his name) to "restore" any furniture I may sit on, never mind "design" a bicycle I would (refuse to) ride. Andre Jute I ask for no more than competence. Is that really too much? is possible a counter Italian Design culture exists ? https://kenneturner.files.wordpress....-ii.jpg?w=1000 |
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1950's style hybrid electric bicycles
On 6/4/2017 4:53 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 2:58:38 AM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote: http://www.designboom.com/technology/luca-agnelli-milano-bici-milan-electric-bicycles-04-18-2016/ http://www.agnellimilanobici.com 1950's retro style hybrid electric bicycle for the 70 year old nostalgia aficionado, who wants a bicycle with power augmentation, built onto a sprung mountain bike frame. Kickstand, fenders, big headlight, chrome, white-wall fat tires, and gas tank are included. It's everything I wanted in a bicycle when I was 15 years old. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 I think your memory is going, Jeff. At 15 you would already have been too smart to fall for this crap. " first [sic] apprenticed as an antique furniture restorer, his bikes resolve technical and aesthetic problems by adapting to continual changes in function and form." That's the designer speaking of himself in what he fondly imagines is the third person. Forget the resulting non sequitur and the uncapitalized sentence and the extra space -- we get enough of that illiterate **** here on RBT from Jeff Daniels -- but instead translate that sentence into English, in which it reads, "Because I'm only a journeyman antique furniture faker, whenever my bikes look like **** or fall apart [as Doug Cimperman points out], instead of fixing the problem, I leave it to bite the credulous buyer in the balls, and build my next monstrosity." Even if this bike doesn't fall apart, as Doug says, and plants the rider on his face, there's another problem with that suspension. It pivots the lower steering inclination around the bottom of the head tube to compress a horizontal helical spring against the frame. Thus it "suspends" by moving the contact patch of the tire backwards and forwards, constantly changing the wheelbase of the bike and the effective angle determining the steering trail. In short, it is not a suspension device but a self-steering monstrosity, further aggravated by the uncontrolled weight transfer it causes. In addition the rear suspension commits the same self-steering by wheelbase-altering error, uncontrollaby adding or subtracting from the front error depending on the road and how true the bike tracks -- I'm not even smiling at that pun, because this bike will never track true even on a level, smooth road. The whole thing, if anyone ever manages to get it up to speed, say downhill, that bike will switch from dangerous understeer to lethal oversteer and back quite unpredictably, several times a second. Frankly, I wouldn't want a clown with such a poor grasp of geometry as luca agnelli (his rendition of his name) to "restore" any furniture I may sit on, never mind "design" a bicycle I would (refuse to) ride. Andre Jute I ask for no more than competence. Is that really too much? Chill out, Andy that fork IS a legitimate vintage design--albeit one that was only used on kids' novelty bikes the last time around-- http://schwinncruisers.com/bikes/krates/ and I think the fork design goes back further than that,,, like, pre-WW2 but I'm not certain. The Monark forks (the other style used on OP's link) are a 'real' vintage design as well- http://www.nostalgic.net/bicycle121 and this design was cribbed from earlier pre-WW1-era motorcycles, though I'm not sure of the exact brand... (similar but different spring style) http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/ba...n-zb0z1601zhur The Monark forks don't look the same as what I bought, so maybe they have fixed some of the issues I saw-- https://monarkforks.com/ Nowadays they're not really intended to be functional suspension, really. Low-speed, light-duty kid stuff. The forward-bent springer forks common on lowrider bicycles sometimes reach rather ridiculous proportions. |
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1950's style hybrid electric bicycles
On Sun, 4 Jun 2017 14:53:56 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote: On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 2:58:38 AM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote: http://www.designboom.com/technology/luca-agnelli-milano-bici-milan-electric-bicycles-04-18-2016/ http://www.agnellimilanobici.com 1950's retro style hybrid electric bicycle for the 70 year old nostalgia aficionado, who wants a bicycle with power augmentation, built onto a sprung mountain bike frame. Kickstand, fenders, big headlight, chrome, white-wall fat tires, and gas tank are included. It's everything I wanted in a bicycle when I was 15 years old. I think your memory is going, Jeff. I don't think so. There are many things I would rather forget, but my bicycle preferences are not included. At 15 you would already have been too smart to fall for this crap. At 15, I was an aspiring juvenile delinquent, where my concept of the ideal bicycle was defined as the model that would make the fastest getaway. "Because I'm only a journeyman antique furniture faker, whenever my bikes look like **** or fall apart [as Doug Cimperman points out], instead of fixing the problem, I leave it to bite the credulous buyer in the balls, and build my next monstrosity." Isn't that the current trend in product design? Customer tested devices, usually at the customers expense. That's what crowd funding is really all about. You get a small discount to be the first person among your tribe to own a genuine defective prototype. I bought a few of those on Kickstarter which I soon found badly implemented good ideas. When first to market is what makes the profits, it's tempting to sell an unfinished design or prototype just to shave off a few days from the product release date. I suspect the supply of second childhood 70+ year old bicycle collectors, that are into bicycle nostalgia, and have the money to pay for an imported semi-custom machine, is rather limited. Whomever gets there first, will probably end up with the entire market. Even if this bike doesn't fall apart, as Doug says, and plants the rider on his face, there's another problem with that suspension. It pivots the lower steering inclination around the bottom of the head tube to compress a horizontal helical spring against the frame. (...) Have you ever considered the possibility that these bicycles were not meant to be ridden? They have the look of a "show" bicycle, which is meant to demonstrate the discerning taste of the buyer, to those who have no taste. The photos are from "craft-works exhibition at stone island showroom in via savona 54" which is apparently a clothing fashion outlet in a Milan mall, not a bicycle showroom: http://www.stoneisland.com Notice that no prices are mentioned, which suggests that they are outrageously high. The best part of the bicycles shown is the (probably) powder coated paint job, which is certainly not worth risking a ding or a paint flake by riding it on the streets. The whole thing, if anyone ever manages to get it up to speed, say downhill, that bike will switch from dangerous understeer to lethal oversteer and back quite unpredictably, several times a second. Well, when I was 15 years old, I rode around on something with a front wheel that wobbled badly enough that steering was rather erratic. However, since I didn't know that this was not normal, I simply adapted and rider merrily and erratically down the sidewalk. Whomever buys these bicycles is probably more concerned about how it looks than how it rides. Also, since these bicycles were made to be shown, not ridden, in the unlikely event that someone actually tries to ride one, it will be very very slowly. That's the only way to insure that the owners riding companions can get a good look at the machine and are thus able to contrive admiring comments. Therefore, I wouldn't worry much about steering and mechanical difficulties. Frankly, I wouldn't want a clown with such a poor grasp of geometry as luca agnelli (his rendition of his name) to "restore" any furniture I may sit on, never mind "design" a bicycle I would (refuse to) ride. No problem. If I end up with one, I won't let you ride it. Personally, I like it, not because of the engineering or design, but because it conglomerated into one machine, all the worst design aspects of 1950's bicycles. Bicycle kitsch perhaps? https://www.google.com/search?q=kitsch&tbm=isch I ask for no more than competence. Is that really too much? Careful what you ask for. It may not be what you really need or want. In this case, anyone who demonstrates competence soon starts a dot com company, gets involved way over his head, produces ever decreasing quality products, gets sued by his stockholders, and ends up either impoverished, or retired in opulent splendor after a government bailout. Competence is not the road to quality products. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#10
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1950's style hybrid electric bicycles
On 6/4/2017 7:16 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jun 2017 14:53:56 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute wrote: On Sunday, June 4, 2017 at 2:58:38 AM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote: http://www.designboom.com/technology/luca-agnelli-milano-bici-milan-electric-bicycles-04-18-2016/ http://www.agnellimilanobici.com 1950's retro style hybrid electric bicycle for the 70 year old nostalgia aficionado, who wants a bicycle with power augmentation, built onto a sprung mountain bike frame. Kickstand, fenders, big headlight, chrome, white-wall fat tires, and gas tank are included. It's everything I wanted in a bicycle when I was 15 years old. I think your memory is going, Jeff. I don't think so. There are many things I would rather forget, but my bicycle preferences are not included. At 15 you would already have been too smart to fall for this crap. At 15, I was an aspiring juvenile delinquent, where my concept of the ideal bicycle was defined as the model that would make the fastest getaway. "Because I'm only a journeyman antique furniture faker, whenever my bikes look like **** or fall apart [as Doug Cimperman points out], instead of fixing the problem, I leave it to bite the credulous buyer in the balls, and build my next monstrosity." Isn't that the current trend in product design? Customer tested devices, usually at the customers expense. That's what crowd funding is really all about. You get a small discount to be the first person among your tribe to own a genuine defective prototype. I bought a few of those on Kickstarter which I soon found badly implemented good ideas. When first to market is what makes the profits, it's tempting to sell an unfinished design or prototype just to shave off a few days from the product release date. I suspect the supply of second childhood 70+ year old bicycle collectors, that are into bicycle nostalgia, and have the money to pay for an imported semi-custom machine, is rather limited. Whomever gets there first, will probably end up with the entire market. Even if this bike doesn't fall apart, as Doug says, and plants the rider on his face, there's another problem with that suspension. It pivots the lower steering inclination around the bottom of the head tube to compress a horizontal helical spring against the frame. (...) Have you ever considered the possibility that these bicycles were not meant to be ridden? They have the look of a "show" bicycle, which is meant to demonstrate the discerning taste of the buyer, to those who have no taste. The photos are from "craft-works exhibition at stone island showroom in via savona 54" which is apparently a clothing fashion outlet in a Milan mall, not a bicycle showroom: http://www.stoneisland.com Notice that no prices are mentioned, which suggests that they are outrageously high. The best part of the bicycles shown is the (probably) powder coated paint job, which is certainly not worth risking a ding or a paint flake by riding it on the streets. The whole thing, if anyone ever manages to get it up to speed, say downhill, that bike will switch from dangerous understeer to lethal oversteer and back quite unpredictably, several times a second. Well, when I was 15 years old, I rode around on something with a front wheel that wobbled badly enough that steering was rather erratic. However, since I didn't know that this was not normal, I simply adapted and rider merrily and erratically down the sidewalk. Whomever buys these bicycles is probably more concerned about how it looks than how it rides. Also, since these bicycles were made to be shown, not ridden, in the unlikely event that someone actually tries to ride one, it will be very very slowly. That's the only way to insure that the owners riding companions can get a good look at the machine and are thus able to contrive admiring comments. Therefore, I wouldn't worry much about steering and mechanical difficulties. Frankly, I wouldn't want a clown with such a poor grasp of geometry as luca agnelli (his rendition of his name) to "restore" any furniture I may sit on, never mind "design" a bicycle I would (refuse to) ride. No problem. If I end up with one, I won't let you ride it. Personally, I like it, not because of the engineering or design, but because it conglomerated into one machine, all the worst design aspects of 1950's bicycles. Bicycle kitsch perhaps? https://www.google.com/search?q=kitsch&tbm=isch I ask for no more than competence. Is that really too much? Careful what you ask for. It may not be what you really need or want. In this case, anyone who demonstrates competence soon starts a dot com company, gets involved way over his head, produces ever decreasing quality products, gets sued by his stockholders, and ends up either impoverished, or retired in opulent splendor after a government bailout. Competence is not the road to quality products. Gresham smiles from beyond the grave. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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