Once upon a Torker

the frame would have remained torker but it didnt really fit hte tire,
the top of it rubed, hte width was great, but not hte hieght....

the only hting left thats traditional torker on it is the hub, cranks,
pedals, and seat post(but with extra metal on it) the seat is kh and the
frame is yuni, qu-ax luna blah blah......


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James_Potter wrote:
*
whenever a piece of wood in Theseus's ship got old and rotten or
something, he'd replace that piece. after a while, he had replaced
every single board in the ship. So since none of it is the same as
the one he started on, is it the same ship he had in the beginning, or
is it an entirely new ship?
*


This is my grandfather's axe. My father replaced the handle and I
replaced the head.

In the case of the unicycle, I think it depends how gradually the
changes are made. You can put a new wheel in a unicycle; you can
replace the frame. Do both at the same time and it becomes a different
unicycle. Do them a month apart and when someone says, "Do you still
have that unicycle?"you can say, "Yes."


--
Mikefule - Roland Hope School of Unicycling

Competing with yesterday to hold off tomorrow.
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Many people's "cokers" have nothing but a coker tire...but they call
them that because thats what they think of them as.


--
TheObieOne3226 - Hello!

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\"obie is definately a trend setter, i got in to unicycling because of
him, and came here because of him\" - kj-52

\"try not to annoy the great obie, for he is better than us.\" - murde
mental

*disclaimer: the above message was not intended to offend anyone. if you
are offended i can take no responsibility for my actions because i don't
feel like it. also you are reading an internet newsgroup where not
everyone will share your same views and beliefs, be able to take
criticism and post/read threads at your own risk.*
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Where did you get the Qu-ax rim I recently built a torker hub trials uni
and I talked to UDC UK about getting a Qu-ax but I didn't want to deal
with the shipping and such. I got my rim from UDC USA and they sold it
as a Yuni rim, but I wonder if it is realy the same rim. Here is a
picture.


+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Attachment filename: trials wheel.jpg |
|Download attachment: http://www.unicyclist.com/attachment/347392|
+----------------------------------------------------------------+

--
Tellurider - Dan Wilson

There's a fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental Illness".
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caw89 wrote:
*

the only hting left thats traditional torker on it is the hub, cranks,
pedals, and seat post(but with extra metal on it) the seat is kh and
the frame is yuni, qu-ax luna blah blah...... *


What if all that was original Torker was the wheel, rim, frame and?
Would that still be a Torker?

Mikefule wrote:
*
In the case of the unicycle, I think it depends how gradually the
changes are made. You can put a new wheel in a unicycle; you can
replace the frame. Do both at the same time and it becomes a different
unicycle. Do them a month apart and when someone says, "Do you still
have that unicycle?"you can say, "Yes."*


I don't agree with this. I don't think time should matter, because how
could you ever determine the certain amount of time that divides when it
becomes something new and when it remains the same? What if you replace
the frame, wait a week then replace the wheel? Same uni? What if you
replace the frame, have a sandwich and then replace the wheel? Different
uni now? Does it depend on someone else seeing it between each stage?


I like the idea that it's the memories we attach to it that gives it its
"-ness". Although every philosopher has his mad scientist example that
does crazy things like replace one memory at a time with someone else's,
creating that same grey area that comes up in the time problem and is
meant to be demonstrated by the Ship of Theseus.

.....I like uni's and philosophy, especially mixed.


--
HistoricalGoof - Cruisin' in B&W!
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TheObieOne3226 wrote:
*Many people's "cokers" have nothing but a coker tire...but they call
them that because thats what they think of them as. *


that is true...any unicycle with a 36" wheel is a Coker, even if none of
it is made by Coker, just because that's what everyone knows a 36" wheel
unicycle as.
but a trials uni, that's a different thing. ya gotcher KH, and then ya
gotcher Onza. and then ya gotcher Quax, and then ya gotcher Miyata's.
there's a BUNCH of different kinds, and none of them were the main
trials uni.
but of course, when someone says, I have a KH 20", everyone instantly
knows that it's a trials.


--
James_Potter - betcha can't stick it!
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HistoricalGoof wrote:
*What if all that was original Torker was the wheel, rim, and frame?
Could we still call that a Torker? Seems so to me.



I don't agree with this. I don't think time should matter, because
how could you ever determine the certain amount of time that divides
when it becomes something new and when it remains the same? What if
you replace the frame, wait a week then replace the wheel? Same uni?
What if you replace the frame, have a sandwich and then replace the
wheel? Different uni now? Does it depend on someone else seeing it
between each stage?

I like the idea that it's the memories we attach to it that gives it
its "-ness". Although every philosopher has his mad scientist example
that does crazy things like replace one memory at a time with someone
else's, creating that same grey area that comes up in the time problem
and is meant to be demonstrated by the Ship of Theseus.

.....I like uni's and philosophy, especially mixed. *



"[Fuller] grasps and tenses an invisible rope, on which we are to
understand a common overhand knot, two 360° rotations in intersecting
planes, each passed through the other:

"Pull, and whatever your effort each lobe of the knot makes it
impossible that the other shall disappear. It is a self-interfering
pattern. Slacken, and its structure hangs open for anlysis, but suffers
no topological impairment. Slide the knot along the rope: you are
sliding the rope through the knot. Slide through it, if you have them
spliced in sequence, hemp rope, cotton rope, nylon rope. The knot is
indifferent to these transactions. the knot is neither hemp nor cotton
nor nylon: is not the rope. The knot is a patterned integrity. The rope
renders it visible. No member of Fuller's audience has ever objected (he
remarks) that throughout this exposition he has been holding no rope at
all, so accessible to the mind is a patterned integrity, visible or no,
once the senses have taught us the contours.

"Imagine, next, the metabolic flow that passes through a man and is not
the man: some hundreds of tons of solids, liquids and gasses serving to
render a single man corporeal during the seventy years he persists, a
patterned integrity, a knot through which pass the swift strands of
simultaneous ecological cycles, recycling transformations of solar
energy. At any given moment the knotted materials weigh perhaps 160
pounds."

(Buckminster Fuller, 1967)


--
tholub - Kinetic Sculptor
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Tellurider wrote:
*Where did you get the Qu-ax rim I recently built a torker hub trials
uni and I talked to UDC UK about getting a Qu-ax but I didn't want to
deal with the shipping and such. I got my rim from UDC USA and they
sold it as a Yuni rim, but I wonder if it is realy the same rim. Here
is a picture. *


Looks hte exact same to me, i called them and orderd a qu-ax rim from
UDC...


--
caw89 - Cody

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TheObieOne3226 wrote:
*Many people's "cokers" have nothing but a coker tire...but they call
them that because thats what they think of them as. *
In the case of Cokers, the tire is the part that's actually made by the
Coker Tire Company. This is why a Coker can still be a Coker when the
tire is the only original part left.

The same is not true for other brands of unicycle, nor should "Coker" be
a generic name for 36" unicycles. Teresa Abrahams had a 36" Tom Miller
big wheel back in the early 80s. There's nothing Coker about it.

If we follow the general rule for bicycles, then you go by the frame.
But even this is a pretty rough guideline, because the company named on
the stickers may or may not have actually made the frame. But since the
frame is usually the part that is most identified with the brand, I
would tend to follow the frame. I believe Torker frames are made by a
third-party frame company in Taiwan (or China?) for Torker. But the
Torker stickers go on the frame, and though those frames may be
identical to some other brands out there, they may also be unique to the
Torker brand.

On the typical bike, pretty much every other part is made by somebody
else. Tires come from a tire company. Rims from a rim company. Drive
components (gruppos) from a company that specializes in those, etc. The
same is true for unicycles.

So if what was originally a Torker now has a Yuni frame and a mass of
other parts, its Torker-ness is seriously reduced. I would call it a
customized Yuni at this point.

I had an old Miyata that went through a similar process. I guess it was
my old 24" racing machine (not the fancy specialized one that was stolen
in China). Over the years the seat and post were replaced (many times),
the wheel was replaced, as I'm sure was the axle at least once or twice.
The only thing remaining of the original cycle was half of the frame.
Tom Miller had replaced the short seat tube with a long one and had it
re-chromed. But what was left of the frame was still the Miyata part;
the part that was originally made by Miyata. Technically it would be a
TUF-Miyata at this point, or a customized Miyata.


--
johnfoss - More Moab Fun

John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone
"jfoss" at "unicycling.com" -- www.unicycling.com

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(http://www.unicycling.org/iuf/rulebook/) -- 'USA Rulebook'
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HistoricalGoof wrote:
*
I don't agree with this. I don't think time should matter, because
how could you ever determine the certain amount of time that divides
when it becomes something new and when it remains the same? What if
you replace the frame, wait a week then replace the wheel? Same uni?
What if you replace the frame, have a sandwich and then replace the
wheel? Different uni now? Does it depend on someone else seeing it
between each stage?. *


The argument of the beard: if I have 5,000 whiskers, I have a beard; if
I have no whiskers, I have no beard. So, what if I have 4,999 whiskers?
or 1 whisker? Could I say that 2,500 whiskers is a beard, but 2,499 is
not? And so on.

The fallacy is that just because it is possible to demonstrate
meaninglessly small increments along a continuum, there must be no
difference between the two ends of the continuum.

I buy a unicycle. I ride it. I replace the tyre. I have a unicycle.
It is the same one. I replace the tube. It is the same unicycle. I
replace the cranks, etc. At each stage, I am altering one component of
an existing unicycle. Eventually, I might have replaced every
component, but there will be no specific point at which there would be
universal agreement that it was no longer the same unicycle. However, a
photograph of the original chromed 20 inch beginner's uni, and the
eventual red powder coated 24 inch MUni would clearly show that there
were two different unicycle. That is one application of the "argument
of the beard", showing that my own argumetn earlier in the thread was
contaminated by this fallacy.

On the other hand, there is a clear difference in character between
replacing individual components over a period of time, and replacing
several major components simultaneously. You can fit a new crank bolt
to a unicycle, but you cannot fit a new unicycle to a crank bolt.

The fallacy occurs, and introduces an apparent paradox, because the
question is artificial, and carries subjective concepts within it. The
cure, therefore, is to define your terms clearly within the question.
The answer to the question then becomes a truism, or tautologous.

For example: let the definition of a unicycle be the frame, not
including the detachable parts such as bearing clamps of seat clamp.

At what stage does it become a different unicycle?

At the stage that the frame is changed.

Here is where logic is revealed as no more than a tool for analysing
what we already know. It gives us no new insights whatsoever.

(1) All men are mortal.
(2) Plato is a man.
(3) Therefore, Plato is mortal.

Many people fail to spot that we can only know (1) if we already know
(3).

So back to the Torker Paradox, the philosophical question is one we must
address, not with syllogisms, but with definitions. Definitions apply
to words, not concepts. We use words to define concepts, not concepts
to exemplify words. Therefore, any attempt to answer the question is
merely an expression of our preferences. We choose to define the
unicycle as its frame, or its wheel, or as its totality, or as its
monetary value.

This last one (monetary value) is one I hear very often at work as an
insurance assessor. It is common for people to inherit or be given
jewellery, and to take the insurance money to buy something
fundamentally different (a watch instead of a necklace) and then
convince themselves that the watch is the one that they inherited or
were given.


--
Mikefule - Roland Hope School of Unicycling

Competing with yesterday to hold off tomorrow.
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