Better design to adjust brake pads

On 18/08/2020 01:09, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 20:28:31 +0200, Tosspot
wrote:

On 17/08/2020 20:21, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 17 August 2020 13:25:07 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 10:23 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 8:47 AM, AK wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-5, Roger
Merriman wrote:
AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust
them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


All cable brake systems will need to be adjusted and
normally have a barrel adjuster.

V-brakes are bit fiddly, but if set up they are fine, but
they have had their day in the sun.

Disk brakes took over from V brakes from about 20 years or
so ago

One of the advantages of hydraulic systems it adjusts for
pad wear.

Roger Merriman

Can my rear brakes be converted to disc brakes?

If so, how expensive?

Andy


Requirements include different frame, fork, wheels and a disc
brake set. As much or as little as you like.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Schwinn-2...lack/651876804



That BSO has one disc brake (!) but it's cheaper than a
decent set of hydraulic discs alone:

https://www.outsidepursuits.com/best-mtb-brakes/


But note that if you get mechanical disk brakes, you still need
to adjust them as they wear. Something like this might be a less
expensive alternative.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixe...r_Cycles_I.jpg




My fixie uses up front brake pads at a higher rate then my
other bicycles. YMMV and likely does.

p.s. Riding on the public roads fixed w/o an actual brake is a Very
Bad Idea. As always YMMV but please don't do that.

-- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1
April, 1971

It's also illegal in most areas if you ride a bicycle without a
mechanical brake of some sort.

And that is why I always carry an umbrella with me. Keeps the rain off
and stops you on a dime.

Does one simply poke the umbrella in the spokes to stop of open it and
use it as a drag chute?

Shove it in the front wheel. 'Course like most brakes you get poor wet
weather performance :-(

Tosspot wrote:
On 17/08/2020 22:16, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 10:23 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 8:47 AM, AK wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


All cable brake systems will need to be adjusted and normally have a barrel
adjuster.

V-brakes are bit fiddly, but if set up they are fine, but they have had
their day in the sun.

Disk brakes took over from V brakes from about 20 years or so ago

One of the advantages of hydraulic systems it adjusts for pad wear.

Roger Merriman

Can my rear brakes be converted to disc brakes?

If so, how expensive?

Andy


Requirements include different frame, fork, wheels and a
disc brake set. As much or as little as you like.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Schwinn-2...lack/651876804

That BSO has one disc brake (!) but it's cheaper than a
decent set of hydraulic discs alone:

https://www.outsidepursuits.com/best-mtb-brakes/


But note that if you get mechanical disk brakes, you still need to adjust
them as they wear. Something like this might be a less expensive
alternative.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixe...r_Cycles_I.jpg


My fixie uses up front brake pads at a higher rate then my
other bicycles. YMMV and likely does.

p.s. Riding on the public roads fixed w/o an actual brake is
a Very Bad Idea. As always YMMV but please don't do that.


Many people give advice on the internet, but there is always an implicit
responsibility on the receiver of said advice to ask themselves “Does this
advice actually make sense for me?�

PS: I’m quite surprised that the OP actually has a bike without brake
adjusters. I thought they were ubiquitous.

The picture he posted clearly showed them.



The picture the OP posted was not of his bike. Posting a picture of the
actual bike in question would probably cause the discussion to come to an
abrupt halt when somebody pointed the adjuster out.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 07:13:40 +0200, Tosspot
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 01:09, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 20:28:31 +0200, Tosspot
wrote:

On 17/08/2020 20:21, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 17 August 2020 13:25:07 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 10:23 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 8:47 AM, AK wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-5, Roger
Merriman wrote:
AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust
them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


All cable brake systems will need to be adjusted and
normally have a barrel adjuster.

V-brakes are bit fiddly, but if set up they are fine, but
they have had their day in the sun.

Disk brakes took over from V brakes from about 20 years or
so ago

One of the advantages of hydraulic systems it adjusts for
pad wear.

Roger Merriman

Can my rear brakes be converted to disc brakes?

If so, how expensive?

Andy


Requirements include different frame, fork, wheels and a disc
brake set. As much or as little as you like.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Schwinn-2...lack/651876804



That BSO has one disc brake (!) but it's cheaper than a
decent set of hydraulic discs alone:

https://www.outsidepursuits.com/best-mtb-brakes/


But note that if you get mechanical disk brakes, you still need
to adjust them as they wear. Something like this might be a less
expensive alternative.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixe...r_Cycles_I.jpg




My fixie uses up front brake pads at a higher rate then my
other bicycles. YMMV and likely does.

p.s. Riding on the public roads fixed w/o an actual brake is a Very
Bad Idea. As always YMMV but please don't do that.

-- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1
April, 1971

It's also illegal in most areas if you ride a bicycle without a
mechanical brake of some sort.

And that is why I always carry an umbrella with me. Keeps the rain off
and stops you on a dime.

Does one simply poke the umbrella in the spokes to stop of open it and
use it as a drag chute?

Shove it in the front wheel. 'Course like most brakes you get poor wet
weather performance :-(

When it's raining an umbrella through the spokes won't stop you very
well? Try rubber soled shoes and just stand up (but keep a good hold
on the bicycle :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 18/08/2020 08:15, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 07:13:40 +0200, Tosspot
wrote:

On 18/08/2020 01:09, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 20:28:31 +0200, Tosspot
wrote:

On 17/08/2020 20:21, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 17 August 2020 13:25:07 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 10:23 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 8:47 AM, AK wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-5, Roger
Merriman wrote:
AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust
them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


All cable brake systems will need to be adjusted and
normally have a barrel adjuster.

V-brakes are bit fiddly, but if set up they are fine, but
they have had their day in the sun.

Disk brakes took over from V brakes from about 20 years or
so ago

One of the advantages of hydraulic systems it adjusts for
pad wear.

Roger Merriman

Can my rear brakes be converted to disc brakes?

If so, how expensive?

Andy


Requirements include different frame, fork, wheels and a disc
brake set. As much or as little as you like.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Schwinn-2...lack/651876804



That BSO has one disc brake (!) but it's cheaper than a
decent set of hydraulic discs alone:

https://www.outsidepursuits.com/best-mtb-brakes/


But note that if you get mechanical disk brakes, you still need
to adjust them as they wear. Something like this might be a less
expensive alternative.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixe...r_Cycles_I.jpg




My fixie uses up front brake pads at a higher rate then my
other bicycles. YMMV and likely does.

p.s. Riding on the public roads fixed w/o an actual brake is a Very
Bad Idea. As always YMMV but please don't do that.

-- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1
April, 1971

It's also illegal in most areas if you ride a bicycle without a
mechanical brake of some sort.

And that is why I always carry an umbrella with me. Keeps the rain off
and stops you on a dime.

Does one simply poke the umbrella in the spokes to stop of open it and
use it as a drag chute?

Shove it in the front wheel. 'Course like most brakes you get poor wet
weather performance :-(

When it's raining an umbrella through the spokes won't stop you very
well?

You tried poking an open umbrella in the spokes!?

Try rubber soled shoes and just stand up (but keep a good hold
on the bicycle :-)

On 18/08/2020 07:57, Ralph Barone wrote:
Tosspot wrote:
On 17/08/2020 22:16, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 10:23 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 8:47 AM, AK wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


All cable brake systems will need to be adjusted and normally have a barrel
adjuster.

V-brakes are bit fiddly, but if set up they are fine, but they have had
their day in the sun.

Disk brakes took over from V brakes from about 20 years or so ago

One of the advantages of hydraulic systems it adjusts for pad wear.

Roger Merriman

Can my rear brakes be converted to disc brakes?

If so, how expensive?

Andy


Requirements include different frame, fork, wheels and a
disc brake set. As much or as little as you like.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Schwinn-2...lack/651876804

That BSO has one disc brake (!) but it's cheaper than a
decent set of hydraulic discs alone:

https://www.outsidepursuits.com/best-mtb-brakes/


But note that if you get mechanical disk brakes, you still need to adjust
them as they wear. Something like this might be a less expensive
alternative.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixe...r_Cycles_I.jpg


My fixie uses up front brake pads at a higher rate then my
other bicycles. YMMV and likely does.

p.s. Riding on the public roads fixed w/o an actual brake is
a Very Bad Idea. As always YMMV but please don't do that.


Many people give advice on the internet, but there is always an implicit
responsibility on the receiver of said advice to ask themselves “Does this
advice actually make sense for me?�

PS: I’m quite surprised that the OP actually has a bike without brake
adjusters. I thought they were ubiquitous.

The picture he posted clearly showed them.



The picture the OP posted was not of his bike. Posting a picture of the
actual bike in question would probably cause the discussion to come to an
abrupt halt when somebody pointed the adjuster out.

You are correct, it was in the tyre life thread it was posted.

I assume you are complaining about the necessity to adjust the brake shoe position as the brake pad wears. This is a geometry problem that's not limited to V-brakes. The pivot is laterally offset from the vertical rim's vertical centerline.

The V-brake pad moves simultaneously inward and downward from its rest position, when the brake is applied. It will travel further, as the brake pad wears. That means further downward and away from the rim center. The same is true for cantilever brakes.

Centerpull and the one of the brake pads dual pivot brakes move inward and upward when the brake is applied. These must also be adjusted to prevent the brake pad from engaging the tire sidewall as its braking surface as the pad(s) wear.

Sidepull brakes which have a single pivot directly over the wheel centerline. The brake pads move inward, as the brake is applied. They move neither upward nor downward. Once the brake pad position is set for a new pad, the brake's alignment relative to the rim will remain constant. Sidepulls will also track a wobbly rim, when a spoke breaks. Sidepull downsides are a lower mechanical advantage requiring more effort to stop, difficulty in centering the brakes, and small size that makes it less suitable for wide tires.

On 8/18/2020 9:04 AM, Stephen Bauman wrote:
I assume you are complaining about the necessity to adjust the brake shoe position as the brake pad wears. This is a geometry problem that's not limited to V-brakes. The pivot is laterally offset from the vertical rim's vertical centerline.

The V-brake pad moves simultaneously inward and downward from its rest position, when the brake is applied. It will travel further, as the brake pad wears. That means further downward and away from the rim center. The same is true for cantilever brakes.

Centerpull and the one of the brake pads dual pivot brakes move inward and upward when the brake is applied. These must also be adjusted to prevent the brake pad from engaging the tire sidewall as its braking surface as the pad(s) wear.

Sidepull brakes which have a single pivot directly over the wheel centerline. The brake pads move inward, as the brake is applied. They move neither upward nor downward. Once the brake pad position is set for a new pad, the brake's alignment relative to the rim will remain constant. Sidepulls will also track a wobbly rim, when a spoke breaks. Sidepull downsides are a lower mechanical advantage requiring more effort to stop, difficulty in centering the brakes, and small size that makes it less suitable for wide tires.

+1 nice analysis.

At the risk of lighting a fuse, Magura's hydraulic rim brake
also gets this exactly right.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 10:03:32 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 11:34:09 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 2:41:47 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 9:36:43 PM UTC+1, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2020 9:18 PM, AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


Great idea! Maybe you could devise some brake adjuster
which the rider could manipulate, without tools, while
riding. The world is waiting!

http://www.wigglestatic.com/product-...000&h=1000&a=7


That’s just crazy Andrew. That will never catch on.

You got that fifty percent right, Ralph. On the one hand, it isn't a crazy idea: Magura has been offering brakes that adjust from the brake lever for decades. They're the HS series of rim hydraulics, superb brakes that require no service of any kind except new brake blocks every few thousand miles; they're described by some (okay, by Chalo and me) as the world's largest hydraulic disc brakes, with the rim as the disk. On the other hand, you're right, it hasn't caught on: in a rational world, all bikes would be fitted with Magura's rim hydraulic brakes because they're more progressive than disk brakes and don't wear pads as fast as the tiny wheel-centre disks, it hasn't happened...

What makes them any better than a pair of cable-actuated Shimano dual pivot rim brakes?

I wouldn't know. I didn't say they're "any better than a pair of cable-actuated Shimano dual pivot rim brakes". Depends what your parameter for "better" is*. According to a fellow who used to come here, Clive George, (I think that was his name) there were always many different types of the Magura rim hydraulics, including racing versions for wishful thinkers. There still are.

*None of the brakes on my other bikes, or any of your bikes, above a certain competence level, and maybe price level too, for practical purposes stop any better than the Magura rim hydraulics or any worse. In all circumstance, with whatever brakes you have fitted, the coefficient of retardation -- the amount of braking you can expect -- will be limited by the friction between the road and the tyre. Given that other factors on the bicycle , particularly those which influence and effect weight transfer under braking -- are the same or close, the difference between brakes lies mainly in "feel", a subjective parameter.

I like the Magura rim hydraulics because because they're progressive and totally service free except for requiring new brake blocks (on my bike every 8500km or about 5000m); presumably a time will come when a new rim will be required. When I got mine, which will see me out, there were different calliper chamber volumes, so I chose the largest one to deliver the least instant pressure and by that choice achieved wonderfully progressive brakes, perfectly suitable for a distracted intellectual to slam on at the last moment and stop in time without any drama. I didn't even consider the racing version, and also passed by the sharper versions (smaller chamber for higher instant pressure) as clearly for people who wish to give the impression they're swinging dicks. Today the difference is only in the price and the availability of different trim on the brake levers. I also threw off the so-called "brake booster", the purpose of which is to stiffen the fork and allow sharper braking. My bike between the axles is stiffer than the body of a Rolls-Royce, so I didn't see the need.

Don't they require canti-bosses?

Don't all other brakes require fittings on the frame or fork? What sort of an argument is this from an adult?

My reason for going to discs was to avoid wearing out my rims riding in rain and muck -- and for better wet weather stopping. A Magura hydro rim brake solves no problems for me.

Actually, the range of brake blocks available for Magura rim hydraulics is the same as for any other kind of brake, and hydraulic assistance very likely makes the pressure you can apply higher than on mechanical rim or disk brakes. But, if you need disc brakes to preserve your rims, than that's that. I dislike disc brakes on bicycles because it is quite difficult to make them progressive without making them weak, a factor of their small size, relative to rims.

Assuming there is a Magura set-up you can use on a bike without bosses, I doubt they work much better than a pair of Ultegra dual pivots on CF rims, which is another place where rim brakes are less than optimal. I can totally understand why they never caught on with most sport and utility riders..

You can doubt all you want, fellow, but I stop my 215 pounds plus about 70 pounds of painting gear on a downhill plus a bike that even with specially drawn Columbus tubes is fitted up with several times the weight of the roadie's trim in wider tyres and a hefty leather saddle and all kinds of heavyweight stuff, where I'm going faster than the roadie by the simple proof of passing him, and I start braking later and I'm not white about the gills, as he is when he overshoots the stop at the T junction where I'm waiting with two stopwatches running. People used to say of the Citroen SM that I kept in Europe, and the Citroen DS I drove in Australia, that I shoulda bought a Rolls instead (the SM cost more than a Rolls), because any time they drove them, they were uncomfortable with the brakes which stopped the car from very high speeds by simply resting your foot on it, not pressing -- if you were clumsy with the brake, you could frighten yourself quite ****less but I never heard of anyone who actually killed himself, which is why I didn't mind if others drove those cars, as long as they didn't expect me to come too. The Magura rim hydraulics are like that: once you get the hang of them (which consists of paying them no attention until you become accustomed to paying them no attention), you'll never want anything else ever again.

I've never used hydraulic rim brakes, so I don't know if they feel better. I just know they're rim brakes -- and my current dual pivot rim brakes provide excellent stopping power. I don't see a giant market for direct mount hydro rim brakes, particularly since they're unusable with standard STI or Ergo levers, AFAIK.


Ordinary disc pads do wear to quickly, which is a whole other problem. Road discs are not perfect. They do save rims, however.

Discs also require you to pay attention to how you brake.

Do you not pay attention to how you brake? It is true, though, that many rear discs will provide better rear stopping power than a standard rim caliper brake.


As I explained above, I pay no nevermind to theoretical road bike braking distances; I don't like machines that require too much of my attention or interrupt me when I'm speaking or thinking. When it is necessary, I just slam the Magura rim hydraulics on and between them and my Big Apple balloons, which for practical purposes are slicks with plenty of frictional area in contact with the road, they stop me without any drama, and in a shorter distance than any of the peloton type bikes. It's the difference between an Austin Healey Sprite and a Jensen Interceptor FF with ABS off a big Boeing jet. Once I got used to the four-wheel drive (off an F1 car by Ferguson) and ABS brakes (two decades before my Bentley Turbo had ABS... I'd throw that heavy touring car into corners in the Fens around Cambridge willy-nilly even in the rain and just stand up on the brakes under any condition; once when the air traffic controllers were on strike and my friend had to be at the Staatsoper for curtain rise of let her job go to her stand-in, I averaged over a 100mph through the midwinter snow on the passes from Rome to Vienna with the three singers in the party belting out arias to keep their minds off the chasms. The Utopia Kranich is like that, a nevermind bike, and the Magura rim hydraulic brakes make up a big part of its superiority over even the good Gazelle (disc brake) and Trek (roller brakes stronger than any discs known to me) I still have -- in the loft, three floors up.

-- Jay Beattie.

Personally, now that for the first time ever my daily bike has been the same one for more than two years, in fact over ten years for the Utopia Kranich, I wonder why people like you put up with the expensive but nasty crap that is so common in store-bought bikes.

Well, for one, I have no interest in riding a mixte Eiffel Tower boat anchor, although I might like the electric assist.

It takes only a little thought and costs very little more to specify a bike that suits you, rather than you trying to suit some thoughtless clown's extreme bike, and there are custom builders, presumably even in America, who will build you anything you desire. (Okay, I had to go as far away as Germany to get a first class bike, but maybe I just didn't explain what I wanted well enough to the braziers in England.) It's only too easy to conclude that most bicyclists are either overly impressionable or masochists.

Unless you're built like ET, buying custom is unnecessary. Not that I don't appreciate a nice custom steel frame. I was riding and building custom steel bikes in the '70s and '80s -- cutting tubes, filing doing all the grunt work for a frame builder on my own frames. I did my own repair brazing and painting. I was 6'4" and rode a 63-4cm frame, so custom was often my only choice in the days of short posts and limited stem offerings. The companies that did make larger steel frames often used stupidly short top tubes.

These days, I ride a 61cm compact and can even get by with a 58/9cm compact frame from some makers. I have a nominal 60.5 cm gravel bike that my son rides when he's in town, and he's 6'6". It has a Thompson Elite 410mm seat post, so he gets plenty of seat height, and his only issue is a somewhat short cockpit, which could be fixed with a 13cm stem, but both of us are too lazy to swap in a different stem. Getting a bike to fit is easier now than ever.


-- Jay Beattie

Tosspot wrote:
On 18/08/2020 07:57, Ralph Barone wrote:
Tosspot wrote:
On 17/08/2020 22:16, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 10:23 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/17/2020 8:47 AM, AK wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-5, Roger Merriman wrote:
AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust them
when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


All cable brake systems will need to be adjusted and normally have a barrel
adjuster.

V-brakes are bit fiddly, but if set up they are fine, but they have had
their day in the sun.

Disk brakes took over from V brakes from about 20 years or so ago

One of the advantages of hydraulic systems it adjusts for pad wear.

Roger Merriman

Can my rear brakes be converted to disc brakes?

If so, how expensive?

Andy


Requirements include different frame, fork, wheels and a
disc brake set. As much or as little as you like.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Schwinn-2...lack/651876804

That BSO has one disc brake (!) but it's cheaper than a
decent set of hydraulic discs alone:

https://www.outsidepursuits.com/best-mtb-brakes/


But note that if you get mechanical disk brakes, you still need to adjust
them as they wear. Something like this might be a less expensive
alternative.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixe...r_Cycles_I.jpg


My fixie uses up front brake pads at a higher rate then my
other bicycles. YMMV and likely does.

p.s. Riding on the public roads fixed w/o an actual brake is
a Very Bad Idea. As always YMMV but please don't do that.


Many people give advice on the internet, but there is always an implicit
responsibility on the receiver of said advice to ask themselves “Does this
advice actually make sense for me?�

PS: I’m quite surprised that the OP actually has a bike without brake
adjusters. I thought they were ubiquitous.

The picture he posted clearly showed them.



The picture the OP posted was not of his bike. Posting a picture of the
actual bike in question would probably cause the discussion to come to an
abrupt halt when somebody pointed the adjuster out.

You are correct, it was in the tyre life thread it was posted.



I also tried to go back and see what pictures had been posted. There was
one of the OP’s rear brake, which showed no adjuster, but we still don’t
know what is or isn’t on his brake levers. If he doesn’t have one there,
then a new set of cheap levers or an in-line adjuster would be the answer.
Note that the OP has disappeared from the thread, so now we’re just talking
for the sake of talking.

On 8/18/2020 11:01 AM, jbeattie wrote:

On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 10:03:32 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:

On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 11:34:09 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:

On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 2:41:47 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 9:36:43 PM UTC+1, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2020 9:18 PM, AK wrote:
I have V-brakes and quite frankly, it is a pain to adjust them when they wear down.

It looks the same for other brake styles.

Can not someone come up with a better system?

Like adjust a nut to make the pads closer to the rim.

Andy


Great idea! Maybe you could devise some brake adjuster
which the rider could manipulate, without tools, while
riding. The world is waiting!

http://www.wigglestatic.com/product-...000&h=1000&a=7


That’s just crazy Andrew. That will never catch on.

You got that fifty percent right, Ralph. On the one hand, it isn't a crazy idea: Magura has been offering brakes that adjust from the brake lever for decades. They're the HS series of rim hydraulics, superb brakes that require no service of any kind except new brake blocks every few thousand miles; they're described by some (okay, by Chalo and me) as the world's largest hydraulic disc brakes, with the rim as the disk. On the other hand, you're right, it hasn't caught on: in a rational world, all bikes would be fitted with Magura's rim hydraulic brakes because they're more progressive than disk brakes and don't wear pads as fast as the tiny wheel-centre disks, it hasn't happened...

What makes them any better than a pair of cable-actuated Shimano dual pivot rim brakes?


I wouldn't know. I didn't say they're "any better than a pair of cable-actuated Shimano dual pivot rim brakes". Depends what your parameter for "better" is*. According to a fellow who used to come here, Clive George, (I think that was his name) there were always many different types of the Magura rim hydraulics, including racing versions for wishful thinkers. There still are.

*None of the brakes on my other bikes, or any of your bikes, above a certain competence level, and maybe price level too, for practical purposes stop any better than the Magura rim hydraulics or any worse. In all circumstance, with whatever brakes you have fitted, the coefficient of retardation -- the amount of braking you can expect -- will be limited by the friction between the road and the tyre. Given that other factors on the bicycle , particularly those which influence and effect weight transfer under braking -- are the same or close, the difference between brakes lies mainly in "feel", a subjective parameter.

I like the Magura rim hydraulics because because they're progressive and totally service free except for requiring new brake blocks (on my bike every 8500km or about 5000m); presumably a time will come when a new rim will be required. When I got mine, which will see me out, there were different calliper chamber volumes, so I chose the largest one to deliver the least instant pressure and by that choice achieved wonderfully progressive brakes, perfectly suitable for a distracted intellectual to slam on at the last moment and stop in time without any drama. I didn't even consider the racing version, and also passed by the sharper versions (smaller chamber for higher instant pressure) as clearly for people who wish to give the impression they're swinging dicks. Today the difference is only in the price and the availability of different trim on the brake levers. I also threw off the so-called "brake booster", the purpose of which is to stiffen the fork and allow sharper braking. My bike between the axles is stiffer than the body of a Rolls-Royce, so I didn't see the need.


Don't they require canti-bosses?


Don't all other brakes require fittings on the frame or fork? What sort of an argument is this from an adult?


My reason for going to discs was to avoid wearing out my rims riding in rain and muck -- and for better wet weather stopping. A Magura hydro rim brake solves no problems for me.


Actually, the range of brake blocks available for Magura rim hydraulics is the same as for any other kind of brake, and hydraulic assistance very likely makes the pressure you can apply higher than on mechanical rim or disk brakes. But, if you need disc brakes to preserve your rims, than that's that. I dislike disc brakes on bicycles because it is quite difficult to make them progressive without making them weak, a factor of their small size, relative to rims.


Assuming there is a Magura set-up you can use on a bike without bosses, I doubt they work much better than a pair of Ultegra dual pivots on CF rims, which is another place where rim brakes are less than optimal. I can totally understand why they never caught on with most sport and utility riders.


You can doubt all you want, fellow, but I stop my 215 pounds plus about 70 pounds of painting gear on a downhill plus a bike that even with specially drawn Columbus tubes is fitted up with several times the weight of the roadie's trim in wider tyres and a hefty leather saddle and all kinds of heavyweight stuff, where I'm going faster than the roadie by the simple proof of passing him, and I start braking later and I'm not white about the gills, as he is when he overshoots the stop at the T junction where I'm waiting with two stopwatches running. People used to say of the Citroen SM that I kept in Europe, and the Citroen DS I drove in Australia, that I shoulda bought a Rolls instead (the SM cost more than a Rolls), because any time they drove them, they were uncomfortable with the brakes which stopped the car from very high speeds by simply resting your foot on it, not pressing -- if you were clumsy with the brake, you could frighten yourself quite ****less but I never heard of anyone who actually killed himself, which is why I didn't mind if others drove those cars, as long as they didn't expect me to come too. The Magura rim hydraulics are like that: once you get the hang of them (which consists of paying them no attention until you become accustomed to paying them no attention), you'll never want anything else ever again.


I've never used hydraulic rim brakes, so I don't know if they feel better. I just know they're rim brakes -- and my current dual pivot rim brakes provide excellent stopping power. I don't see a giant market for direct mount hydro rim brakes, particularly since they're unusable with standard STI or Ergo levers, AFAIK.



Ordinary disc pads do wear to quickly, which is a whole other problem. Road discs are not perfect. They do save rims, however.


Discs also require you to pay attention to how you brake.


Do you not pay attention to how you brake? It is true, though, that many rear discs will provide better rear stopping power than a standard rim caliper brake.


As I explained above, I pay no nevermind to theoretical road bike braking distances; I don't like machines that require too much of my attention or interrupt me when I'm speaking or thinking. When it is necessary, I just slam the Magura rim hydraulics on and between them and my Big Apple balloons, which for practical purposes are slicks with plenty of frictional area in contact with the road, they stop me without any drama, and in a shorter distance than any of the peloton type bikes. It's the difference between an Austin Healey Sprite and a Jensen Interceptor FF with ABS off a big Boeing jet. Once I got used to the four-wheel drive (off an F1 car by Ferguson) and ABS brakes (two decades before my Bentley Turbo had ABS... I'd throw that heavy touring car into corners in the Fens around Cambridge willy-nilly even in the rain and just stand up on the brakes under any condition; once when the air traffic controllers were on strike and my friend had to be at the Staatsoper for curtain rise of let her job go to her stand-in, I averaged over a 100mph through the midwinter snow on the passes from Rome to Vienna with the three singers in the party belting out arias to keep their minds off the chasms. The Utopia Kranich is like that, a nevermind bike, and the Magura rim hydraulic brakes make up a big part of its superiority over even the good Gazelle (disc brake) and Trek (roller brakes stronger than any discs known to me) I still have -- in the loft, three floors up.



-- Jay Beattie.


Personally, now that for the first time ever my daily bike has been the same one for more than two years, in fact over ten years for the Utopia Kranich, I wonder why people like you put up with the expensive but nasty crap that is so common in store-bought bikes.


Well, for one, I have no interest in riding a mixte Eiffel Tower boat anchor, although I might like the electric assist.

It takes only a little thought and costs very little more to specify a bike that suits you, rather than you trying to suit some thoughtless clown's extreme bike, and there are custom builders, presumably even in America, who will build you anything you desire. (Okay, I had to go as far away as Germany to get a first class bike, but maybe I just didn't explain what I wanted well enough to the braziers in England.) It's only too easy to conclude that most bicyclists are either overly impressionable or masochists.

Unless you're built like ET, buying custom is unnecessary. Not that I don't appreciate a nice custom steel frame. I was riding and building custom steel bikes in the '70s and '80s -- cutting tubes, filing doing all the grunt work for a frame builder on my own frames. I did my own repair brazing and painting. I was 6'4" and rode a 63-4cm frame, so custom was often my only choice in the days of short posts and limited stem offerings. The companies that did make larger steel frames often used stupidly short top tubes.

These days, I ride a 61cm compact and can even get by with a 58/9cm compact frame from some makers. I have a nominal 60.5 cm gravel bike that my son rides when he's in town, and he's 6'6". It has a Thompson Elite 410mm seat post, so he gets plenty of seat height, and his only issue is a somewhat short cockpit, which could be fixed with a 13cm stem, but both of us are too lazy to swap in a different stem. Getting a bike to fit is easier now than ever.


-- Jay Beattie


Something has screwed up the attributions in the above post, causing me
to read (or skim) a lot of verbiage I'd normally ignore.

But about the Magura hydraulic rim brakes, the most charitable thing I
can say is preferences must vary tremendously. My best cycling friend
installed a set on the family Santana tandem. Within a few months, he
stripped them off and went back to the stock cantilevers. While I don't
remember the details of his complaints, he certainly felt they offered
no significant advantage over the original brakes.

And as Jay has noted, those brakes have certainly never made a dent in
any market, including the market for highly customized, one-off luxury
bikes that allow the owner to specify every detail. Very, very few
people see any real value in them.

--
- Frank Krygowski