Why is Shimano so hated by some?

jim beam wrote:
No - that was the Apple guys - they got the idea for LISA from PARC. That
was too expensive and didn't break through.
The Machintosh then came along and was very successful.

Windows was then developed from there, and Windows NT development was
started in conjunction with IBM - OS2 and Windows NT both came out of this
project.

So, Windows was a copy of the Apple OS, but Microsoft did want to license
the product to start with. Apple copied the idea from PARC.

did parc pre-date this?

http://www.saao.ac.za/unix/node66.html

Very much so. I saw a Xerox Alto in operation at Carnegie Mellon in
1980, with mouse, hi-res bitmap display, and GUI. I never used it for
anything useful beyond playing mazewar, though. Computing powerhouses
like CMU had not yet gone all over to Unix - their machine room was full of
DEC KL-10s and DEC-20s. Three years later, the DEC-20s were still around
but the VAXen running BSD Unix on forty green-screen VT100s at a time were
clearly the future, for a time anyway. At that time, Xerox was making Lisp
workstations like the Dandelion with GUIs, windowing systems, WYSIWYG, and
the whole nine yards, but these were never commercially successful nor
very common.

The Mac and eventually Windows copied the idea of a GUI, but neither of
these operating systems became a real multi-user operating system until
much much later. That strain propagated through X, Unices, and (I hate
to admit it) VMS, until it finally returned to PC/Mac operating systems,
which I understand now sometimes don't even fall down every third day.
The gurus behind X and Athena were very familiar with the Xerox machines,
Lisp Machines, and other expressions of PARC-influenced GUIs and network
protocols (X is at least as much a network protocol as it is a windowing
system).

Now I feel like an absolute dinosaur ranting about what Faliero Masi
had for lunch the day in 1971 he brazed a seatlug on frame number 17 ...

"David Kerber" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
Where do you think they got the idea for Windows, with mice as input
devices? As far as I know, they never bought Xerox!

i thought ms only got their windows s/w to work after help from the
"athena project" [x windows] folks at m.i.t?

I don't know about getting it to actually work, but from what I read
somewhere, they got the original idea from a demo at Xerox PARC.


No - that was the Apple guys - they got the idea for LISA from PARC. That
was too expensive and didn't break through.

The Machintosh then came along and was very successful.

Windows was then developed from there, and Windows NT development was
started in conjunction with IBM - OS2 and Windows NT both came out of this
project.

So, Windows was a copy of the Apple OS, but Microsoft did want to license
the product to start with. Apple copied the idea from PARC.

All the best,

Tim

Evan Evans wrote:
As a frequent visitor to this group. I've noticed that there are a few
posters who use this as a platform to steer people against the use of
Shimano components. What's wrong with Shimano?

OK here is a positive comment:

The discount stores would be unable to bring a $99 bike to
maket profitably without them.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

No - that was the Apple guys - they got the idea for LISA from PARC. That
was too expensive and didn't break through.

The Machintosh then came along and was very successful.

Windows was then developed from there, and Windows NT development was
started in conjunction with IBM - OS2 and Windows NT both came out of this
project.

So, Windows was a copy of the Apple OS, but Microsoft did want to license
the product to start with. Apple copied the idea from PARC.

did parc pre-date this?

http://www.saao.ac.za/unix/node66.html

Tim McNamara wrote:

Shimano is like the Microsoft of the bicycle world, the difference
being that Shimano products are reliably good. Campagnolo is the
Apple of the bicycling world- their products arguably work better and
last longer, but there is a premium to be paid. Suntour would be
perhaps the OS/2 of the bicycle world- late and great. ;-)

Except that Apple systems are _more_ expensive, not less,
than WinTel.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

David Kerber writes:

In article ,
says...

Where do you think they got the idea for Windows, with mice as
input devices? As far as I know, they never bought Xerox!

i thought ms only got their windows s/w to work after help from the
"athena project" [x windows] folks at m.i.t?

I don't know about getting it to actually work, but from what I read
somewhere, they got the original idea from a demo at Xerox PARC.

Legend makes that out to have been Steve Jobs co-founder of Apple.

A Muzi writes:

Tim McNamara wrote:

Shimano is like the Microsoft of the bicycle world, the difference
being that Shimano products are reliably good. Campagnolo is the
Apple of the bicycling world- their products arguably work better
and last longer, but there is a premium to be paid. Suntour would
be perhaps the OS/2 of the bicycle world- late and great. ;-)

Except that Apple systems are _more_ expensive, not less, than
WinTel.

Ummm, yup. That was part of my point. Unless Campagnolo has reversed
its price policies of many years, the Italian stuff costs more at the
same level than Shimano. Chorus used to cost as much or more than
Dura-Ace. The Euro to dollar conversion rate is not doing Campagnolo
any favors currently.

Tim McTeague wrote:
What I don't get is
the near religious passion many Campy people have for their product.


Yes, _much_ lack of understanding. Me too!

Like when I talk with a guy who's on his _third_ set of DA
shifters, I note that an Ergo rebuild is $35 parts& labor.

Although a DA bike costs $500 _more_ than a Chorus bike, he
looks me in the eye and says sure, but he cannot afford
Campagnolo . . .

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 29 Nov 2003 02:50:57 -0800, (Chalo) wrote:
2) Shimano make lots of weak, breakage-prone, quick-wearing, and
non-serviceable parts for the lowest possible cost, then proceed to
charge just as much as the market will bear.

The mysterious BVM wrote:
I used to think that Phil Wood hubs were really good, until I bought
some. In 1-2 years I had to send them back to the factory for
servicing. For orders of magnitude less I now use Ultegra hubs. They
don't get corroded even in winter salted streets conditions. They
easily go 2 years. The UN-72 BBs were pretty lame, but then so were
the Phil Woods. The Ultegra BBs are not quick-wearing. What wears
longer?


If I might ask, what occurred with your Phils? It's been a
while since they were non-user-serviceable, BTW.

I commonly see 25 and 30 year old Phil equipment that's
still running well, less normal wear. We'll pop in new
bearings and send 'em off for another couple of decades.

The worst problem I've ever experienced with a Phil product
was in 1999, trying to get a BB out of a 1980 Zeus to move
it to a new frame. Had to cut the mounting rings away there
was such deep corrosion. The BB still spun well.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

David Kerber wrote:
says...

No - that was the Apple guys - they got the idea for LISA from PARC. That
was too expensive and didn't break through.

Ok. I might have been mixed up.

The Machintosh then came along and was very successful.
Windows was then developed from there, and Windows NT development was

Are you sure about this time line? Windows certainly pre-dated the Mac,
though I'm less sure about the earlier Apple versions. Remember that
Windows 2.11 (the first semi-useful version) came out around the late
80's.

Definitely not. Recall that the first Mac ad played on the theme of
Orwellian "1984" (during the Jan 1984 Super Bowl, IIRC). I saw my
first Mac in 1984 and we spent the rest of the evening playing with fonts,
MacPaint, and going "Wow, this is cool!" This was a 128K "skinny" Mac,
the model where you could only write a 10 page document in Macwrite
before running out of memory. IIRC, the upgrade to a 512K "fat" Mac
cost $1000. Even at the time I think that was a little overpriced.

Windows wasn't even vaporware yet at that point. People were
whispering about the mythical and rumored "OS2" in about the same
way that rumors pop up here about DA 11-speed in late summer.

started in conjunction with IBM - OS2 and Windows NT both came out of this
project.

So, Windows was a copy of the Apple OS, but Microsoft did want to license
the product to start with. Apple copied the idea from PARC.

Windows was not a "copy" of the Apple OS. It was an attempt to
layer a GUI on top of DOS (and for a while retained some of DOS's
less-felicitous features). Elements of the GUI may have been inspired
by the Mac GUI (there was a largely pointless Apple lawsuit over this)
but they were both inspired by previous work, especially from Xerox.

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

"Real Programmers don't comment their code. If it was hard to write,
it should be hard to understand."

from http://www.multicians.org/thvv/realprogs.html

see also http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/real.programmers.html

Dogeared copies of these were pinned to the bulletin board
at my first summer programming job (1985).