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  #81  
Old June 21st 18, 04:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 5,969
Default Helmet News

On 6/21/2018 8:18 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

All this fear mongering [...]


Perhaps this is an American issue. Here, the
streets are filled with people who ride their
bikes every day, many several times a day, and
very, very few use helmets. Riding a bike is
not considered dangerous!


Here, it is. Some helmet promotion sites have sections where they
attempt to rebut helmet skeptic arguments. In response to "But bicycling
isn't dangerous" they say "The U.S. is not the Netherlands. Riding here
is much more dangerous." It's fear mongering.

And BTW, I've seen websites that claimed that it can be fatal to even
fall off your bike while standing in your driveway. The fear mongering
here can be ludicrous.

The road bike people and the MTB people use
helmets but they are a very small minority.


These days, in my area, if you go to a paved bike trail - the kind that
Americans drive their cars to, mount their bikes and ride a few miles up
and back - about half the riders will wear helmets. Even more weird, on
those trails I've passed riders on low recumbent tricycles like this:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...jzt-iSeZBR0L5y

Again, a helmet for a trike you cannot possibly fall from, used on a
car-free bike trail! Are they afraid they'll trip when they try to get
off the bike? It's ludicrous.

Intuitively, I feel like if you ride a road
bike at that speed and have an accident
involving traffic, that sounds like a very
serious situation with or without a helmet, but
I think I'd use one anyway.


I believe you can make a case that performance oriented riders
"training" (that is, pushing for speed) might have more likelihood of
some helmet benefit. But then you get into risk compensation. I _know_
friends of mine take risks they would not take without the helmet, and
I'm sure those extra risks easily exceed the tiny protective capacity of
a bike helmet.

With the MTB people, I don't see why you can't
simply trip over a stock, and hit your head
into a rock. I don't see why a helmet wouldn't
reduce the impact?


I won't argue against a bike helmet for challenging mountain bike riding
- except to say (as Mayer Hillman did) that you may be safer with the
helmet, if you can just pretend that you're not wearing one.

Many years ago, Bell Sports (then the biggest helmet manufacturer and
promoter) had a notorious advertisement: "Bell - Courage for your Head."
It showed a "first person" view from a guy looking down a steep, steep
cliff at buddies who had apparently just ridden down it. The
implication? Put on our certified-for-14-mile-per-hour helmet, then risk
your life.

I no longer do that sort of mountain biking. When I do ride my mountain
bike, I wear an ordinary cap.

--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #82  
Old June 21st 18, 05:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 5,969
Default Helmet News

On 6/21/2018 10:08 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 9:13:45 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 2:48:08 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 6:56:08 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
My "more careful" still includes 40 mph downhills, riding in groups,
drafting, riding in city and suburban traffic, and a bit of riding in
the woods, on gravel, etc.

But for me, it includes lots and lots of "what if" anticipation and
attention to the road surface. What if there's gravel around that
downhill bend? What if that motorist tries to push into the roundabout
while I'm in the circle? What if that puddle is really a deep pothole?
What if the meeting goes late and I have to ride home in the dark? What
if that squirrely rider suddenly weaves into my path? What if that mud
across the bike trail is really slippery?

Except for those who ride blindfolded, most of us DO plan ahead.


It's not a binary thing, Jay. There are degrees of planning and levels of skill.
Some do it better than others. I think one way to tell who does it better is to
count crashes - ideally, crashes per mile.

Yes, we might make allowances for riding conditions. Perhaps a crash in a
criterium or road race shouldn't count against a person nearly as much. And
perhaps if a person is 100% committed to riding in any weather, they should
get a bonus. But I've known more than one person who gave up riding because
they crashed too much. That tells me there is very likely a bell curve at
work here. I try to be at the good end of that curve.

Does it equate to slowing down? Only sometimes. Most often it means being
observant, knowing how to prepare and be ready in case something comes up.
Preparing and being ready may be things like changing lane position (usually
further left) and covering the brakes. It means pedaling continuously when
approaching a motorist who may pull out, so he doesn't expect me to stop for
him. It means looking way ahead to plan the best path through all the
potholes, not just the one in front. It means downshifting before a stop so
I'm in a good starting gear, and knowing how to start quickly when needed.
And so on.

I'm not saying you're not a good rider. But I think it's likely that one's
crash history is determined by the balance between the risks one takes and
one's skill level. I think some people take more risks than their skill level
justifies. (Hell, I've seen that for sure.)

Above all, if a person has a good riding record, I wouldn't put it off to luck,
any more than I'd say LeBron James is just lucky at shooting baskets.


Oh god, now you're LeBron James. And yes, you are saying that I and everyone else who has crashed more than you is not as good a rider as you. That is the clear and pompous message.


No, that is NOT the message. The message is that I do a good job of
balancing the risks I take with the skills I have.

One way I do that is by passing up the chance to take some risks. I
described the time I skipped the "big air" mountain bike adventure that
broke one guy's collar bone. I can tell about taking a safer path
through a long field of potholes that caused one club rider to crash. I
can talk about slowing way down for curves with gravel, or in general
avoiding Jobst-like cornering angles even on dry pavement.

There are things I'm still good at on a bike, probably better than most
riders. One example seems to be jumping the bike. But while that's saved
me from at least one crash, I don't think it's a major thing. I think my
biggest skill is anticipating potential hazards and taking rather
ordinary measures to reduce those risks.

Again, when I slid out on road salt and scratched my knee, I figured I
screwed up. I'd figure the same thing if I slipped on a rainy road. I
certainly wouldn't say "Gee, there was nothing I could have done."


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #83  
Old June 21st 18, 07:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 885
Default Helmet News

Frank Krygowski wrote:

Perhaps this is an American issue. Here, the
streets are filled with people who ride
their bikes every day, many several times
a day, and very, very few use helmets.
Riding a bike is not considered dangerous!


Here, it is. Some helmet promotion sites have
sections where they attempt to rebut helmet
skeptic arguments. In response to "But
bicycling isn't dangerous" they say "The U.S.
is not the Netherlands. Riding here is much
more dangerous." It's fear mongering.


~"It's a campaign of fear and consumption"?

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Marilyn_Manson

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #84  
Old June 21st 18, 07:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,492
Default Helmet News

On 6/21/2018 9:08 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 9:13:45 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 2:48:08 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 6:56:08 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
My "more careful" still includes 40 mph downhills, riding in groups,
drafting, riding in city and suburban traffic, and a bit of riding in
the woods, on gravel, etc.

But for me, it includes lots and lots of "what if" anticipation and
attention to the road surface. What if there's gravel around that
downhill bend? What if that motorist tries to push into the roundabout
while I'm in the circle? What if that puddle is really a deep pothole?
What if the meeting goes late and I have to ride home in the dark? What
if that squirrely rider suddenly weaves into my path? What if that mud
across the bike trail is really slippery?

Except for those who ride blindfolded, most of us DO plan ahead.


It's not a binary thing, Jay. There are degrees of planning and levels of skill.
Some do it better than others. I think one way to tell who does it better is to
count crashes - ideally, crashes per mile.

Yes, we might make allowances for riding conditions. Perhaps a crash in a
criterium or road race shouldn't count against a person nearly as much. And
perhaps if a person is 100% committed to riding in any weather, they should
get a bonus. But I've known more than one person who gave up riding because
they crashed too much. That tells me there is very likely a bell curve at
work here. I try to be at the good end of that curve.

Does it equate to slowing down? Only sometimes. Most often it means being
observant, knowing how to prepare and be ready in case something comes up.
Preparing and being ready may be things like changing lane position (usually
further left) and covering the brakes. It means pedaling continuously when
approaching a motorist who may pull out, so he doesn't expect me to stop for
him. It means looking way ahead to plan the best path through all the
potholes, not just the one in front. It means downshifting before a stop so
I'm in a good starting gear, and knowing how to start quickly when needed.
And so on.

I'm not saying you're not a good rider. But I think it's likely that one's
crash history is determined by the balance between the risks one takes and
one's skill level. I think some people take more risks than their skill level
justifies. (Hell, I've seen that for sure.)

Above all, if a person has a good riding record, I wouldn't put it off to luck,
any more than I'd say LeBron James is just lucky at shooting baskets.


Oh god, now you're LeBron James. And yes, you are saying that I and everyone else who has crashed more than you is not as good a rider as you. That is the clear and pompous message.

Sure, if I spent all my time on the bunny slopes, I would never crash. Regrettably, my world is not a bunny slope -- particularly during fall, winter and spring. The Portland study showed an inverse correlation between experience and injury rate, probably because those who actually ride -- and ride in inclement weather with uncertain traction -- are at more risk. https://tinyurl.com/y86dashy In contrast, the sunny day creep-along riders will have lower injury rates.

I am about to go to work in some of the loudest thunder I've heard in 30 years and, of course, pouring rain -- but it's warm-ish rain. After a dry spell, the roads will be slippery where they are not submerged. I am hoping that my super-Frank sonar will help me locate submerged potholes and other obstacles.

-- Jay Beattie.



Check this out for a classic 'everyone oughta' buttinski:

https://nypost.com/video/masked-vigi...-of-new-haven/

If some guy in a truck pulled up next to me and told me how
to ride my bicycle I'd tell him to **** off as well.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #85  
Old June 26th 18, 01:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 137
Default Helmet News

On 21/06/2018 2:49 PM, AMuzi wrote:

Check this out for a classic 'everyone oughta' buttinski:

https://nypost.com/video/masked-vigi...-of-new-haven/


If some guy in a truck pulled up next to me and told me how to ride my
bicycle I'd tell him to **** off as well.

We were stopped at a stop sign waiting to turn onto a highway and this
pickup truck turns off the highway and slows to tell us "yea, you better
stop at the ****ing stop sign." WTF?

But generally I don't get told how to ride my bike, but where to ride my
bike. Usually the imaginary bike path that eiter doesn't exist or
doesn't go anywhere. My response is usually, "If you're in that much of
a hurry, the autoroute(1)is just over there..."

(1) autoroute = interstate
  #86  
Old June 26th 18, 04:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,969
Default Helmet News

On 6/26/2018 8:50 AM, Duane wrote:
On 21/06/2018 2:49 PM, AMuzi wrote:

Check this out for a classic 'everyone oughta' buttinski:

https://nypost.com/video/masked-vigi...-of-new-haven/


If some guy in a truck pulled up next to me and told me how to ride my
bicycle I'd tell him to **** off as well.

We were stopped at a stop sign waiting to turn onto a highway and this
pickup truck turns off the highway and slows to tell us "yea, you better
stop at the ****ing stop sign."* WTF?

But generally I don't get told how to ride my bike, but where to ride my
bike.* Usually the imaginary bike path that eiter doesn't exist or
doesn't go anywhere.* My response is usually, "If you're in that much of
a hurry, the autoroute(1)is just over there..."

(1) autoroute = interstate


Yep. In response to "Get on the bike path!" I have yelled "Get on the
freeway."

Not that it's productive, I suppose...

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #87  
Old June 27th 18, 05:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,110
Default Helmet News

On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 11:48:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Yep. In response to "Get on the bike path!" I have yelled "Get on the
freeway."


I'm amazed that you can respond -- I've rarely heard the entire remark
from a speeding car, and I've never had one hang around to hear a
reply.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net



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