Sonora Pass ride description & photos up

http://www.chainreaction.com/sonora2005.htm for our ride last Sunday from
Dardanelle, over Sonora Pass to the Marine Base, and then back over the pass
to Dardanelle. This ride is only 52 miles, and, surprisingly, only 7000ft of
climbing. But it's proof that there's more to a ride than can be conveyed by
statistics.

As usual, a heavy download with lots of photos. I've also included links to
satellite & topo maps of the more-legendary sections of the road.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message
t...
http://www.chainreaction.com/sonora2005.htm for our ride last Sunday from
Dardanelle, over Sonora Pass to the Marine Base, and then back over the
pass to Dardanelle. This ride is only 52 miles, and, surprisingly, only
7000ft of climbing. But it's proof that there's more to a ride than can be
conveyed by statistics.

As usual, a heavy download with lots of photos. I've also included links
to satellite & topo maps of the more-legendary sections of the road.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


As always, nice photos and write-up Mike. I did not get to Sonora Pass this
year and wish I had but I get to experience it vicariously through you.

Sonora Pass is a great climb and a challenge for us lowlanders but the
numbers never seem that terrible. As you say, 7000 ft of climbing really
shouldn't kill you. I have put a couple plots here...

http://www.geocities.com/banquo_lives/Sonora.htm

....that show the climb for each mile from Dardanelle to the top and from
Leavitt to the top. Measured this way, the steepest mile climbs 574 ft to
the window. An average of almost 11%. The staircase (AKA Queue du Porc)
climbs 568 feet in a mile. the steepest mile on the east side is 486 feet.
The east side always feels steeper but I am tired. The last few feet of the
east side to the summit are the hardest for me. There may very well be a
spot that is 26% but when I am grunting along at that point, I never feel
like stopping to take measurements.

The numbers were recorded to the nearest foot by my bike computer but I am
certain they are not accurate to the nearest foot.

I'll go next year.

Sonora Pass is a great climb and a challenge for us lowlanders but the
numbers never seem that terrible. As you say, 7000 ft of climbing really
shouldn't kill you. I have put a couple plots here...

http://www.geocities.com/banquo_lives/Sonora.htm

...that show the climb for each mile from Dardanelle to the top and from
Leavitt to the top. Measured this way, the steepest mile climbs 574 ft to
the window. An average of almost 11%. The staircase (AKA Queue du Porc)
climbs 568 feet in a mile. the steepest mile on the east side is 486 feet.

If you average grades out over kilometers instead of mile distances, you end
up with considerably-steeper sections (and, obviously, subsequent
near-plateaus that don't otherwise show up). It would be interesting to find
out why the road was laid out the way it is. On the west side, there are
areas where there simply is no other choice (such as the Golden Staircase).
But on the east side, one could almost believe there's a method to the
madness, as painfully-steep sections generally give way to nearly-flat in a
pattern that repeats itself several times.

The east side always feels steeper but I am tired. The last few feet of
the east side to the summit are the hardest for me. There may very well be
a spot that is 26% but when I am grunting along at that point, I never
feel like stopping to take measurements.

Likewise, the back side (east) *seems* worse, but my guess is that, if you
were attacking it first, it wouldn't seem nearly so bad. And I'll bet it
would be nightmarish descending into Dardanelle, turning around and having
to face the "window" section.

There's also less elevation gain on the east side, since you only drop to
6700ft or so, while on the west side, you're starting out at 5800ft.

In terms of elevation gain, the west side is still less climbing than Mt.
Hamilton, but feel so much worse. Altitude effect is the first thing that
comes to mind, yet I rarely feel like I'm constrained by the thin air. The
curious thing about that is that, at lower elevations, my breathing often
hampers my climbing ability (I breathe so hard I sound like a freight train,
particularly when it's a bit on the cool side...). At altitude, I'm just
like everyone else.

By the way, if you check the CalTrans website (http://www.caltrans.ca.gov/),
it says 108 is now closed due to snow. Hopefully not for the season; this
weekend looks to be fairly nice, so maybe someone could get one last crack
at it!

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Dan" wrote in message
...

"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message
t...
http://www.chainreaction.com/sonora2005.htm for our ride last Sunday from
Dardanelle, over Sonora Pass to the Marine Base, and then back over the
pass to Dardanelle. This ride is only 52 miles, and, surprisingly, only
7000ft of climbing. But it's proof that there's more to a ride than can
be conveyed by statistics.

As usual, a heavy download with lots of photos. I've also included links
to satellite & topo maps of the more-legendary sections of the road.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


As always, nice photos and write-up Mike. I did not get to Sonora Pass
this year and wish I had but I get to experience it vicariously through
you.

Sonora Pass is a great climb and a challenge for us lowlanders but the
numbers never seem that terrible. As you say, 7000 ft of climbing really
shouldn't kill you. I have put a couple plots here...

http://www.geocities.com/banquo_lives/Sonora.htm

...that show the climb for each mile from Dardanelle to the top and from
Leavitt to the top. Measured this way, the steepest mile climbs 574 ft to
the window. An average of almost 11%. The staircase (AKA Queue du Porc)
climbs 568 feet in a mile. the steepest mile on the east side is 486 feet.
The east side always feels steeper but I am tired. The last few feet of
the east side to the summit are the hardest for me. There may very well be
a spot that is 26% but when I am grunting along at that point, I never
feel like stopping to take measurements.

The numbers were recorded to the nearest foot by my bike computer but I am
certain they are not accurate to the nearest foot.

I'll go next year.

Mike Jacoubowsky writes:

Sonora Pass is a great climb and a challenge for us lowlanders but
the numbers never seem that terrible. As you say, 7000 ft of
climbing really shouldn't kill you. I have put a couple plots
here...

http://www.geocities.com/banquo_lives/Sonora.htm

...that show the climb for each mile from Dardanelle to the top and
from Leavitt to the top. Measured this way, the steepest mile
climbs 574 ft to the window. An average of almost 11%. The
staircase (AKA Queue du Porc) climbs 568 feet in a mile. the
steepest mile on the east side is 486 feet.

If you average grades out over kilometers instead of mile distances,
you end up with considerably-steeper sections (and, obviously,
subsequent near-plateaus that don't otherwise show up). It would be
interesting to find out why the road was laid out the way it is. On
the west side, there are areas where there simply is no other choice
(such as the Golden Staircase). But on the east side, one could
almost believe there's a method to the madness, as painfully-steep
sections generally give way to nearly-flat in a pattern that repeats
itself several times.

Please Jake, its "The Golden Stairs" not staircase, stairway, or
stairwell. "The Golden Stairs" is a religious concept for the ramp to
heaven, the origin of the name for such pieces of road. Just as China
Grade name in Santa Cruz County got its from truckers hauling redwood
logs down that STEEP, narrow and twisty road, convinced it should come
out in China (as in China syndrome).

http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/gold/apag2.html
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/704.html
http://henkbinnendijk.tripod.com/chi...rail/id16.html
http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=528

There is a way to avoid the Golden Stairs:

http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Recreat...erraSpring.htm

Jobst Brandt

"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote in message

http://www.geocities.com/banquo_lives/Sonora.htm

If you average grades out over kilometers instead of mile distances, you
end up with considerably-steeper sections (and, obviously, subsequent
near-plateaus that don't otherwise show up). It would be interesting to
find out why the road was laid out the way it is. On the west side, there
are areas where there simply is no other choice (such as the Golden
Staircase). But on the east side, one could almost believe there's a
method to the madness, as painfully-steep sections generally give way to
nearly-flat in a pattern that repeats itself several times.

I have added a climb per 1/2 mile to the plots linked above. It shows
steeper bits steeper but we are headed for the much contested "how to
measure steepness" discussion. I am sure we could find a millimeter along
the way that is dead vertical if not overhanging. As you know, steepness and
difficulty are dependant on many variables. As an example, I went up Mt.
Madonna road from Redwood Retreat Road to the top last weekend. It was
awful. The dirt part at the top was in terrible shape with huge cat tracks
and loose dirt. My fat 700x25 tires just didn't do it and I went feet down
at two spots going up.

Likewise, the back side (east) *seems* worse, but my guess is that, if you
were attacking it first, it wouldn't seem nearly so bad. And I'll bet it
would be nightmarish descending into Dardanelle, turning around and having
to face the "window" section.

That sounds ugly, we should try it sometime.

There's also less elevation gain on the east side, since you only drop to
6700ft or so, while on the west side, you're starting out at 5800ft.

In terms of elevation gain, the west side is still less climbing than Mt.
Hamilton, but feel so much worse. Altitude effect is the first thing that
comes to mind, yet I rarely feel like I'm constrained by the thin air. The
curious thing about that is that, at lower elevations, my breathing often
hampers my climbing ability (I breathe so hard I sound like a freight
train, particularly when it's a bit on the cool side...). At altitude, I'm
just like everyone else.

I don't think you can breath too much up there Mike. Sometimes I blow like a
freight train on purpose. I find it helps at times .. helps my climbing but
maybe not my pride.



By the way, if you check the CalTrans website
(http://www.caltrans.ca.gov/), it says 108 is now closed due to snow.
Hopefully not for the season; this weekend looks to be fairly nice, so
maybe someone could get one last crack at it!

Would love to go but have kid duties...

wrote in message
...


Please Jake, its "The Golden Stairs" not staircase, stairway, or
stairwell. "The Golden Stairs" is a religious concept for the ramp to
heaven, the origin of the name for such pieces of road. Just as China
Grade name in Santa Cruz County got its from truckers hauling redwood
logs down that STEEP, narrow and twisty road, convinced it should come
out in China (as in China syndrome).

http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/gold/apag2.html
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/704.html
http://henkbinnendijk.tripod.com/chi...rail/id16.html
http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=528

There is a way to avoid the Golden Stairs:

http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Recreat...erraSpring.htm

Jobst Brandt

Hey Jobst-

I have heard it called "Queue du Porc" which I kinda like. Have you heard it
called this? "Religious Concept" seems a bit heavy doesn't it?

Please Jake, its "The Golden Stairs" not staircase, stairway, or
stairwell. "The Golden Stairs" is a religious concept for the ramp to
heaven, the origin of the name for such pieces of road.

Thanks, I've gone back and changed the references on a couple of my web
pages.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky writes:

Sonora Pass is a great climb and a challenge for us lowlanders but
the numbers never seem that terrible. As you say, 7000 ft of
climbing really shouldn't kill you. I have put a couple plots
here...

http://www.geocities.com/banquo_lives/Sonora.htm

...that show the climb for each mile from Dardanelle to the top and
from Leavitt to the top. Measured this way, the steepest mile
climbs 574 ft to the window. An average of almost 11%. The
staircase (AKA Queue du Porc) climbs 568 feet in a mile. the
steepest mile on the east side is 486 feet.

If you average grades out over kilometers instead of mile distances,
you end up with considerably-steeper sections (and, obviously,
subsequent near-plateaus that don't otherwise show up). It would be
interesting to find out why the road was laid out the way it is. On
the west side, there are areas where there simply is no other choice
(such as the Golden Staircase). But on the east side, one could
almost believe there's a method to the madness, as painfully-steep
sections generally give way to nearly-flat in a pattern that repeats
itself several times.

Please Jake, its "The Golden Stairs" not staircase, stairway, or
stairwell. "The Golden Stairs" is a religious concept for the ramp to
heaven, the origin of the name for such pieces of road. Just as China
Grade name in Santa Cruz County got its from truckers hauling redwood
logs down that STEEP, narrow and twisty road, convinced it should come
out in China (as in China syndrome).

http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/gold/apag2.html
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/704.html
http://henkbinnendijk.tripod.com/chi...rail/id16.html
http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=528

There is a way to avoid the Golden Stairs:

http://www.bicyclinglife.com/Recreat...erraSpring.htm

Jobst Brandt

Dan wrote:

I have added a climb per 1/2 mile to the plots linked above. It shows
steeper bits steeper but we are headed for the much contested "how to
measure steepness" discussion. I am sure we could find a millimeter along
the way that is dead vertical if not overhanging.

I'd argue the natural convolution parameter for climbs is the amount one can
climb in on a load of ATP, which lasts around 10 seconds. For example, OLH
is around 390 meters, so if you can climb OLH in 21:40, this corresponds to
18 vertical meters per minute, or 3 meters per 10 seconds. Using a 20% grade
as a reference, this corresponds to a lateral length scale of 15 meters.
(okay, actually sqrt(15^2 + 3^2) = 15.3 meters). This result "feels" right
to me, based on my history of mental distress at encountering short steep
sections of road.

So I'd convolve the profile with a Gaussian of sigma 15 meters. This renders
as fully irrelevent your 1 mm example, yet a half mile discrization clearly
is inadequate at reproducing the feel of the road.

Commonly, people suggest discritzation as the way to this end (ie measing
th eroad every 15 meters, or half-mile, or whatever). This is an inferior
choice, because the result depends on where you start. For example, if
you're measuring every 15 meters the the road climbs from 0 to 15, then descends
from 15 to 30, the result is profoundly different if you measure at 0, 15, and 30
then if you measure at -7.5, +7.5, +22.5, +37.5. It's way better to oversample
then filter down with convolution.

Dan

"Dan" wrote in message ...


Hey Jobst-

I have heard it called "Queue du Porc" which I kinda like. Have you heard it
called this? "Religious Concept" seems a bit heavy doesn't it?



Having done some research, I will answer my own post. I really should get into the habit of doing the research before posting.

I have met people from Tuolumne County who referred to "Que de Porka." A search of the geographic name base finds a "Que de Porka Resort" marked at Kennedy meadows
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...orka+resort%22
A different search finds:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ue+de+porka%22

It seems that I was wrong in calling the section of road at The Golden Staircase Queue du Porc but I seem to recall a cyclist from Twain Harte (who apparently rides up the pass about once a week) call it something like that.

It may be that the window is just a feature of the Que de Porka. We need to find a Tuolumne County historian.

"Dan Connelly" wrote in message
et...
Dan wrote:

I have added a climb per 1/2 mile to the plots linked above. It shows
steeper bits steeper but we are headed for the much contested "how to
measure steepness" discussion. I am sure we could find a millimeter along
the way that is dead vertical if not overhanging.

I'd argue the natural convolution parameter for climbs is the amount one
can
climb in on a load of ATP, which lasts around 10 seconds. For example,
OLH
is around 390 meters, so if you can climb OLH in 21:40, this corresponds
to
18 vertical meters per minute, or 3 meters per 10 seconds. Using a 20%
grade
as a reference, this corresponds to a lateral length scale of 15 meters.
(okay, actually sqrt(15^2 + 3^2) = 15.3 meters). This result "feels"
right
to me, based on my history of mental distress at encountering short steep
sections of road.

So I'd convolve the profile with a Gaussian of sigma 15 meters. This
renders
as fully irrelevent your 1 mm example, yet a half mile discrization
clearly
is inadequate at reproducing the feel of the road.

Commonly, people suggest discritzation as the way to this end (ie measing
th eroad every 15 meters, or half-mile, or whatever). This is an
inferior
choice, because the result depends on where you start. For example, if
you're measuring every 15 meters the the road climbs from 0 to 15, then
descends
from 15 to 30, the result is profoundly different if you measure at 0, 15,
and 30
then if you measure at -7.5, +7.5, +22.5, +37.5. It's way better to
oversample
then filter down with convolution.

Dan

Okay, I had to lookup ATP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate
I have no idea what OLH is.

The establishment of a standard distance interval is one way and 15 meters
is a good suggestion. Longer rides might suggest longer intervals. It might,
for an individual, make more sense to use a time interval rather than a
distance interval but we are headed off into an area of differing personal
opinions that cannot be resolved and I won't argue for either. The suffering
and/or pleasure involved in a climb varies with weather terrain altitude,
speed, hydration, nutrition, age, condition, equipment, etc.

Okay, I am getting in over my head here so cut me some slack if I am off
base. I gather from your post that you are suggesting that a Gaussian filter
be applied to the data set. My understanding is that this is a low pass
filter in the frequency domain. The shape of this filter is non-linear and
based on the normal distribution. Filtering and smoothing certainly make a
data set look nicer but if the original data set is accurate and contains no
noise, filtering and/or smoothing will create a false data set with error
introduced into virtually every data point (no post-filter data point
represents reality). I have seen otherwise knowledgeable people filter out
the interesting part of a data set because they did not like it, understand
it or it did not fit their preconceptions. Seeing the world through a
Gaussian blur can be rosy but you can also miss important detail. There is
also the aliasing problem inherent in discrete sampling but as you suggest,
over-sampling will usually take care of this.

IMHO, the best way to judge the Sonora Pass climb is to go do it. Do it many
times and try changing the variables.