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Settled Science?



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 24th 18, 03:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 334
Default Settled Science?

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 7:59:59 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 7:27:43 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:44:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

My favorite was the US Federal Weather station that was
placed directly in the exhaust of a building air conditioner.


Ummm... like this wx station mounted on top of the HVAC units?
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/KSBW-WX-Station.jpg
It's the weather station for the Santa Cruz sales office for KSBW. I'm
told it isn't used for forecasting or data collection.


All of your local NOAA stations are up in the mountains -- Ben Lomond, above Los Gatos, La Honda.
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datatools/findstation

-- Jay Beattie.


Do you have that wild-eyed look in your face as you're trying to pass this sort of crap off? EVERY INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT contains a Federal weather station. In case you're unaware of it, temperature, atmospheric pressure, wind speed and wind direction are important. Most cities contain weather stations that meet Federal standards and that too is added to the temperature and wind records.

Tell me, are you preying that the world is going to end like the environmentalists are doing?
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  #22  
Old October 24th 18, 03:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,790
Default Settled Science?

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 5:14:19 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 08:14:20 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 3:35:15 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
When I'm presented with a difficult scientific issue, rather than going to academia or industry, I go to the internet. The BEST experts are bloggers on the internet. It's a huge benefit if they have a YouTube channel, too.
-- Jay Beattie.


Gee, and here I was thinking you got your facts from Wikipedia.
AJ


Probably from Usenet. Last year, Phoenix AZ was the winner of the
record highest temperature award. Just one problem. The weather
station is located on the airport runway and seems to suffer from
local heating by the jet exhaust. I scribbled something on the
problem last year:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.electronics.design/XGaahAB4Wfc/8tM1q47dCQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.electronics.design/XGaahAB4Wfc/VgXp6wsCCgAJ

Gone to save the world from broken computahs....
--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


Quoting:
"Garbage in, climate out.
--
Jeff Liebermann"

Definitely a "wish I said that!" moment.

Andre Jute
60 years in the trenches against the weather catastrophists and other nut cases
  #23  
Old October 24th 18, 03:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,790
Default Settled Science?

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 5:53:02 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 8:14:22 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 3:35:15 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
When I'm presented with a difficult scientific issue, rather than going to academia or industry, I go to the internet. The BEST experts are bloggers on the internet. It's a huge benefit if they have a YouTube channel, too.
-- Jay Beattie.


Gee, and here I was thinking you got your facts from Wikipedia.


Wikipedia is no less reliable than JoNova.


Holy ****, you don't say.
  #24  
Old October 24th 18, 03:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,790
Default Settled Science?

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 10:36:53 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 12:38:13 PM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:
On 10/22/18 11:08 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
What I've been saying since I was a precocious teenager with a column in a national broadsheet is now official:
http://joannenova.com.au/2018/10/fir...boats-on-land/


Fake news.


What I find interesting is that those most loudly pro-AGW are those with the least training.


Training is irrelevant to the believers. Global warming is a belief system, a religion, more in the realms of pathology than science. There's more science in Scientology than in Global Warming.

The interesting thing is the professional organizations of scientists around the world have ethical guidelines or even rules against practice of or reliance by scientists on scientism, which is a magical belief that scientists know better ("97% of scientists agree that global warming is manmade" -- which contains three fallacies, to wit that [unnatural] global warming exists, that it is manmade, and that more than a tiny minority of scientists agree to the previous two fallacies). I would dearly love for these bodies to apply their own rules to people like Michael Mann, who is a stink bomb under the chair of respectable science.

But logic and rationality makes no impression on people who feel that they're acting in the service of Gaia, and that such activity makes them superior to the rationality that you and I apply to their shibboleth of global warming. You can't argue with religious fanatics.

Andre Jute
Just a pity so many of them are cyclists
  #25  
Old October 24th 18, 05:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,779
Default Settled Science?

On 10/24/2018 9:42 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 10:36:53 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 12:38:13 PM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:
On 10/22/18 11:08 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
What I've been saying since I was a precocious teenager with a column in a national broadsheet is now official:
http://joannenova.com.au/2018/10/fir...boats-on-land/

Fake news.


What I find interesting is that those most loudly pro-AGW are those with the least training.


Training is irrelevant to the believers. Global warming is a belief system, a religion, more in the realms of pathology than science. There's more science in Scientology than in Global Warming.

The interesting thing is the professional organizations of scientists around the world have ethical guidelines or even rules against practice of or reliance by scientists on scientism, which is a magical belief that scientists know better ("97% of scientists agree that global warming is manmade" -- which contains three fallacies, to wit that [unnatural] global warming exists, that it is manmade, and that more than a tiny minority of scientists agree to the previous two fallacies). I would dearly love for these bodies to apply their own rules to people like Michael Mann, who is a stink bomb under the chair of respectable science.

But logic and rationality makes no impression on people who feel that they're acting in the service of Gaia, and that such activity makes them superior to the rationality that you and I apply to their shibboleth of global warming. You can't argue with religious fanatics.

Andre Jute
Just a pity so many of them are cyclists


If by 'Gaia' you mean 'International Communism' then I agree.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110112...ds-wealth.html

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #26  
Old October 24th 18, 06:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,439
Default Settled Science?

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 7:09:05 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 7:59:59 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 7:27:43 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:44:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

My favorite was the US Federal Weather station that was
placed directly in the exhaust of a building air conditioner.

Ummm... like this wx station mounted on top of the HVAC units?
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/KSBW-WX-Station.jpg
It's the weather station for the Santa Cruz sales office for KSBW. I'm
told it isn't used for forecasting or data collection.


All of your local NOAA stations are up in the mountains -- Ben Lomond, above Los Gatos, La Honda.
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datatools/findstation

-- Jay Beattie.


Do you have that wild-eyed look in your face as you're trying to pass this sort of crap off? EVERY INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT contains a Federal weather station. In case you're unaware of it, temperature, atmospheric pressure, wind speed and wind direction are important. Most cities contain weather stations that meet Federal standards and that too is added to the temperature and wind records.

Tell me, are you preying that the world is going to end like the environmentalists are doing?


Say Tom, did you look at the map? Did you check to see where the NOAA stations are near Jeff? Is there even one word about my post that is factually incorrect? I'll answer for you: no.

Why are you so invested in ruining the environment? Is it because you live in a godforsaken **** hole that would be improved by a nuclear bomb-blast? I don't. https://www.oregongravelgrinder.com/...ull-36copy.jpg

I suppose we could blow the top off Mt. Hood to see if there is coal inside or just run the sewer outflows right into the Willamette, like the old days. Maybe put a steel mill at Crown Point. https://images.fineartamerica.com/im...t-jon-ares.jpg

The economic activity would far outweigh any long term degradation of human quality of life. People would have more money to buy Big Macs and Trans Ams. That's far more important than, say, a mountain or forest -- which by the way, produce plenty of economic activity on their own. Don't get me going about the price of a season pass. http://www.firsttracksonline.com/wp-...smountain1.jpg (BTW, getting down from that spot is no easy feat). Whatever the cause of global warming, I can tell you that summer skiing on Mt. Hood has gone down the toilet.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #27  
Old October 24th 18, 06:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,909
Default Settled Science?

On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 19:59:56 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 7:27:43 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:44:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

My favorite was the US Federal Weather station that was
placed directly in the exhaust of a building air conditioner.


Ummm... like this wx station mounted on top of the HVAC units?
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/KSBW-WX-Station.jpg
It's the weather station for the Santa Cruz sales office for KSBW. I'm
told it isn't used for forecasting or data collection.


All of your local NOAA stations are up in the mountains -- Ben Lomond,
above Los Gatos, La Honda.
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datatools/findstation
-- Jay Beattie.


Yep. I've been a weather nut for probably 30+ years. Here's my web
page for the local weather links.
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx-fire/SLV%20Weather%20Links.htm
Also, a page on fire related sites that needs lots of reformatting:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx-fire/SLV%20Fire%20Links.htm
Both are somewhat out of date because both NOAA and USGS are
reorganizing their web piles. Real-soon-now.

The main weather station is at the CYA camp on top of Ben Lomond
mountain.
https://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/sites/site.php?station=BNDC1&network=CA_DCP
Looks like they finally posted my photos. Cool.
It's a fairly typical RAWS type station. Circa 2013:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx-fire/BDC-Weather-Station-01.jpg
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx-fire/BDC-Weather-Station-02.jpg
At this time, it's overgrown with brush, weeds, and ticks. The nearby
power station have grown fairly close, creating some heating issues
when the wind is blowing in the wrong direction. At 2600ft elevation,
it gets about twice as much rain as in the nearby valley. It's
probably the best functioning wx station in the area.

I don't have time to write a complete report on the condition of the
local weather stations. In general, they're awful. The station at
the Ben Lomond recycling station is under a tree. The station at
DelaVega Park is in a golf course, which regularly gets watered. Two
others appear on the maps, but do not exist. The air quality monitor
in Santa Cruz is located upwind, at the bottom of 3 sided valley, near
a freeway, which is guaranteed to concentrate CO2, NO, etc readings.

Then, there are the crowd sources weather stations, such Weather
Underground, CWOP, etc.
http://www.wundermap.com
These get their data from home weather stations, which are notoriously
and chronically badly sitted. CWOP tries to help by flagging stations
that produce bad data, but at the present rate of home stations on the
internet, the task is hopeless. This is what a properly sitted home
weather stations might look like. See Pg 7:
https://weather.gladstonefamily.net/CWOP-Siting.pdf

However, it doesn't matter. AGW and climate change research do NOT
use weather station data, unless the researcher is a masochist.
Weather data is short term and intended to help predict the weather a
few days ahead. Climate is all about predicting what will happen
years and centuries ahead. While weather and climate have much in
common, the data collection methods are very different. For example,
weather stations can move around quite a bit without causing much of a
panic, while stations dedicated to climate change need to be
permanently located in an area where encroachment is unlikely. For
example, the USCRN is one such network:
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/crn/

For the previous 20 years, I helped maintain several mountain top
weather stations, mostly at radio sites. It was an unprofitable giant
pain in the posterior, but I certainly learned quite a bit about
weather stations, sensors, data collection, tweaking data, and
administrative politics. Thanksfully, I no longer do this.

I can go on forever on the topic, but I'm busy right now and need to
do something else. Later...








--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #28  
Old October 24th 18, 06:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,909
Default Settled Science?

On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:09:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 7:59:59 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 7:27:43 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:44:15 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

My favorite was the US Federal Weather station that was
placed directly in the exhaust of a building air conditioner.

Ummm... like this wx station mounted on top of the HVAC units?
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/KSBW-WX-Station.jpg
It's the weather station for the Santa Cruz sales office for KSBW. I'm
told it isn't used for forecasting or data collection.


All of your local NOAA stations are up in the mountains -- Ben Lomond,
above Los Gatos, La Honda.
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datatools/findstation
-- Jay Beattie.


Do you have that wild-eyed look in your face as you're trying to
pass this sort of crap off? EVERY INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT contains
a Federal weather station. In case you're unaware of it, temperature,
atmospheric pressure, wind speed and wind direction are important.
Most cities contain weather stations that meet Federal standards
and that too is added to the temperature and wind records.


I can't tell if that's addressed to Jay or me. I'll assume it's for
me.

The two nearest airports to my house is San Jose (KSJC) about 30 miles
away, and Watsonville (KWVI) about 20 miles away. KSJC is on the
other side of a 3,000 ft mountain range and has radically different
weather than from my house in Ben Lomond.

The SJC weather station is located in the middle of the airport, which
is the ultimate heat island dues to the heat absorption from the
concrete and asphalt:
https://weather.gladstonefamily.net/site/KSJC
Most of the sensors are also affected by jet wash heating and
turbulence. KWVI is much better and is located away from the runways
and major heat and turbulence sources:
https://weather.gladstonefamily.net/site/KWVI
Their primary purpose is to supply current weather data for landing
and takeoff and are part of the ASOS/AWOS aviation weather systems.
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/weather/asos/?state=CA
If you fly, such information is vital. If not, don't bother.

Tell me, are you preying that the world is going to end like the
environmentalists are doing?


Not to worry. All we need to do is start another shooting war and all
the concerns and activism on behalf of environmentalism will disappear
overnight. I watched it happen to ecology and the protest movement
after Kent State.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #29  
Old October 24th 18, 07:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,909
Default Settled Science?

On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:21:22 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

Quoting:
"Garbage in, climate out.
Jeff Liebermann"


Definitely a "wish I said that!" moment.


It's one of my tag lines. I contrived it when I heard about the
latest abomination in data reduction. Since none of the climate
models of the day came even close to predicting past climate events,
it was decided that a better result could be produced by simply
combining all these models into one "standard" model. Since all the
models were known to have errors, but not necessarily in the same
direction, the combination of all these will cancel the errors out,
leaving accurate data. My reaction was the "garbage in, climate out"
statement in honor of the original "garbage in, garbage out" data
processing tag line. I'm told that improved satellite data and proxy
data accuracy has reduced the need for such averaging, but I doubt it.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/the-curious-wavefunction/are-more-accurate-climate-change-models-worse/
"...as the models are becoming increasingly realistic, they
are also becoming less accurate and predictive because of
growing uncertainties."

I don't get involved much in climate research, which mostly deals with
satellite and proxy data. What little I've done with climate was
trashed by researchers refusing to provide raw data or indicate what
manner of corrections, normalizing, filtering, etc was done. I gave
up.

For your amusement, see my graph of rainfall records in the San
Lorenzo Valley since 1888:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx/SLV-rainfall-06.jpg
It's rather difficult to predict if we were on an increasing or
decreasing trend in rainfall. With a odd order polynomial curve
extrapolation, I can produce a rainfall increase (black line). With
an even order extrapolation, a decrease (green line).

A more current and realistic graph is at:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx/SLV-rainfall.jpg
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/slv-wx/SLV-rainfall.xls
Play with the data averaging curves and notice how easily they can be
tweaked. I also tried it with some random numbers, and got the same
effect.

Andre Jute
60 years in the trenches against the weather catastrophists and other nut cases


I keep waiting for my subsidy from the oil companies. Aren't all AGW
denialists supported by the oil companies?

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #30  
Old October 24th 18, 10:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 334
Default Settled Science?

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:09:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 7:59:59 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 7:27:43 PM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:44:15 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

My favorite was the US Federal Weather station that was
placed directly in the exhaust of a building air conditioner.

Ummm... like this wx station mounted on top of the HVAC units?
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/KSBW-WX-Station.jpg
It's the weather station for the Santa Cruz sales office for KSBW. I'm
told it isn't used for forecasting or data collection.

All of your local NOAA stations are up in the mountains -- Ben Lomond,
above Los Gatos, La Honda.
https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datatools/findstation
-- Jay Beattie.


Do you have that wild-eyed look in your face as you're trying to
pass this sort of crap off? EVERY INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT contains
a Federal weather station. In case you're unaware of it, temperature,
atmospheric pressure, wind speed and wind direction are important.
Most cities contain weather stations that meet Federal standards
and that too is added to the temperature and wind records.


I can't tell if that's addressed to Jay or me. I'll assume it's for
me.

The two nearest airports to my house is San Jose (KSJC) about 30 miles
away, and Watsonville (KWVI) about 20 miles away. KSJC is on the
other side of a 3,000 ft mountain range and has radically different
weather than from my house in Ben Lomond.

The SJC weather station is located in the middle of the airport, which
is the ultimate heat island dues to the heat absorption from the
concrete and asphalt:
https://weather.gladstonefamily.net/site/KSJC
Most of the sensors are also affected by jet wash heating and
turbulence. KWVI is much better and is located away from the runways
and major heat and turbulence sources:
https://weather.gladstonefamily.net/site/KWVI
Their primary purpose is to supply current weather data for landing
and takeoff and are part of the ASOS/AWOS aviation weather systems.
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/weather/asos/?state=CA
If you fly, such information is vital. If not, don't bother.

Tell me, are you preying that the world is going to end like the
environmentalists are doing?


Not to worry. All we need to do is start another shooting war and all
the concerns and activism on behalf of environmentalism will disappear
overnight. I watched it happen to ecology and the protest movement
after Kent State.


Jeff, that was pertaining to Jay who is so far in over his head that it is unbelievable. He implied that there were some sort of magic weather stations when even the weather stations on top of TV stations feed data into the NOAA database.

Now that he knows that you're a weather fanatic perhaps he's come up with some other ridiculous subject to be wrong on. This is surprising to me since most of the lawyers I've ever known were extremely conservative because they see life up close and personal every day.

Jay appears to be completely blind. He probably thinks that those lawyers defending Trumps Trollops are doing so because they believe them.
 




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