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Nashbar P-Handle Wrenches -- and thank you Royal Mail



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 1st 18, 04:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 6,339
Default Nashbar P-Handle Wrenches -- and thank you Royal Mail

On 11/1/2018 10:02 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-01 05:33, Duane wrote:

You mean like the weight weenies that told you to get a combination tool
rather than go looking for rocks and nails?


The ground-off nail was riding in my tool kit. That and the required
steel nut (for the otehr side of the chain) weighed a fraction of an ounce.


You suddenly sound like a weight weenie!

IIRC you originally talked about finding the nail near a fence along the
trail, not taking it out of your tool kit. Again, your tales seem to
vary day by day.

But now you have a genuine chain tool. Your macho cred is slipping away,
Joerg. To recover some cred, you'd better brag about drinking another
growler, quick!

--
- Frank Krygowski
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  #12  
Old November 1st 18, 05:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 3,439
Default Nashbar P-Handle Wrenches -- and thank you Royal Mail

On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 1:25:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-31 10:43, jbeattie wrote:
So I did this CLE speaking gig for the state bar, and they gave me a
little Amazon card that I used to buy myself these uber-cheap Nashbar
p-handle hex wrenches. https://tinyurl.com/y8rrfyuf (I got via Amazon
for the same price).



That link only produces a security warning here.


... What a great set of wrenches. I don't know how
I lived without these for so long, particularly with all the recessed
brake lever bolts these days. All this time I've been using long or
standard hex wrenches or hex multi wrenches like this:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....PL._SX425_.jpg


I recently bought this, with matching pouch:

https://www.crankbrothers.com/products/m19

It appears to be almost indestructible but is too heavy for weight
weenies, over 7oz. I have it only for a few months but it already saved
the bacon twice, for other riders.


I gave one of those to my son, and the problem with that tool is that the hex wrenches are too short and certainly not anything you would want for shop work. Getting to the brake lever fixing bolt, you need a long wrench -- even with some olde tyme levers (assuming they don't have an 8mm nut), you need a longer hex wrench. Depending on the design of your bottle cage, shorty wrenches get caught up tightening the hex bolts. A lot of stuff you can do with a pocket tool, and I certainly carry one on the road, but most of the stuff I can do with a pocket tool at home, I use a click torque wrench -- something like this: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....L._SL1400_.jpg Or a regular torque wrench for any fastener above 6nm..

The el-cheapo Nashbar wrenches are great for getting to the cable anchors on the new 105, the brake lever fixing bolts, bottle cage bolts, initial tightening of crank pinch bolts, etc. Next best are just long-handle hex wrenches. I use a pocket tool on the road or in a pinch around the house.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #13  
Old November 1st 18, 05:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
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Posts: 196
Default Nashbar P-Handle Wrenches -- and thank you Royal Mail

On 01/11/2018 11:21 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 7:02:28 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-01 05:33, Duane wrote:
On 31/10/2018 4:26 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-31 10:43, jbeattie wrote:
So I did this CLE speaking gig for the state bar, and they gave me a
little Amazon card that I used to buy myself these uber-cheap Nashbar
p-handle hex wrenches. https://tinyurl.com/y8rrfyuf (I got via Amazon
for the same price).


That link only produces a security warning here.


... What a great set of wrenches. I don't know how
I lived without these for so long, particularly with all the recessed
brake lever bolts these days. All this time I've been using long or
standard hex wrenches or hex multi wrenches like this:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....PL._SX425_.jpg


I recently bought this, with matching pouch:

https://www.crankbrothers.com/products/m19

It appears to be almost indestructible but is too heavy for weight
weenies, over 7oz. I have it only for a few months but it already
saved the bacon twice, for other riders.


You mean like the weight weenies that told you to get a combination tool
rather than go looking for rocks and nails?


The ground-off nail was riding in my tool kit. That and the required
steel nut (for the otehr side of the chain) weighed a fraction of an ounce.


I have the same tool and don't find 175g too much to carry. But then
again, I don't have to make room for growlers and 4 lb tubes.


I don't mind either. Just mentioned it because when I used the tool the
other cyclists wanted to see it. The general consensus among them was
"It's very nice but too heavy".

The bike growler is largely retired because I have since started
home-brewing.


... The price was not crazy, either -- even with
postage. I threw it in last night, and it works like a charm. If I
break that part again, I think I would have to get it from some
re-seller in Japan or Germany. That's incredible for a lever that is
maybe two years out of date and for an alleged wear item. This is
now SOP with the constant product upgrades from Shimano. One pines
away for the days when nothing worked that well, but it didn't change
from year to year.


Yep, like my downtube friction shifters. I could always buy new ones
for just a few dollars but nothing breaks.


In my opinion, the single biggest improvement of modern bike tech has
been brifters. I can't imagine using downtube friction shifters now.
Even if replacements are expensive. I don't know though since I've
never replaced anything other than a cable.



Brifters are nice as long as you don't have to shift across the whole
cassette very fast. Like when almost having missed a turn off with an
immediate steep incline.


Oddly enough, everyone from champion DH and cross-country riders to TdF winners have migrated to brifters. Have raced with DT shifters and brifters, I can say with certainty the latter are better. I'm sure there is some situation that only you encounter on your super-gnarly trails and hair-raising roads that requires DT shifters, so Go Dog Go! Keep the DT shifter industry alive. BTW, I raced with both on this course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrG12-aG_Xc multiple laps up a 23% climb -- a double shift that resulted in a giant compression back in the DT shifter days. Now look how smoothly it is accomplished. And with 11sp, a strong rider could big-ring it.



Yeah, with my SRAM setup I can drop 3 gears with a click. Hard to
imagine getting into a situation where a couple of those clicks wouldn't
be enough. Hell with a modern 11 speed group I can be in the big ring
and turn into an unsuspected ascent and drop the ring without losing a
chain. BTDT. DT shifters belong in museums IMO. Or on bikes ridden by
intrepid daredevils that find that niche where nothing else will work
but what they have.

  #14  
Old November 1st 18, 05:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
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Posts: 196
Default Nashbar P-Handle Wrenches -- and thank you Royal Mail

On 01/11/2018 12:09 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 1:25:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-31 10:43, jbeattie wrote:
So I did this CLE speaking gig for the state bar, and they gave me a
little Amazon card that I used to buy myself these uber-cheap Nashbar
p-handle hex wrenches. https://tinyurl.com/y8rrfyuf (I got via Amazon
for the same price).



That link only produces a security warning here.


... What a great set of wrenches. I don't know how
I lived without these for so long, particularly with all the recessed
brake lever bolts these days. All this time I've been using long or
standard hex wrenches or hex multi wrenches like this:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....PL._SX425_.jpg


I recently bought this, with matching pouch:

https://www.crankbrothers.com/products/m19

It appears to be almost indestructible but is too heavy for weight
weenies, over 7oz. I have it only for a few months but it already saved
the bacon twice, for other riders.


I gave one of those to my son, and the problem with that tool is that the hex wrenches are too short and certainly not anything you would want for shop work. Getting to the brake lever fixing bolt, you need a long wrench -- even with some olde tyme levers (assuming they don't have an 8mm nut), you need a longer hex wrench. Depending on the design of your bottle cage, shorty wrenches get caught up tightening the hex bolts. A lot of stuff you can do with a pocket tool, and I certainly carry one on the road, but most of the stuff I can do with a pocket tool at home, I use a click torque wrench -- something like this: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....L._SL1400_.jpg Or a regular torque wrench for any fastener above 6nm.

The el-cheapo Nashbar wrenches are great for getting to the cable anchors on the new 105, the brake lever fixing bolts, bottle cage bolts, initial tightening of crank pinch bolts, etc. Next best are just long-handle hex wrenches. I use a pocket tool on the road or in a pinch around the house.



At home my pocket tool stays in my seat bag.
  #15  
Old November 1st 18, 08:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 5,553
Default Nashbar P-Handle Wrenches -- and thank you Royal Mail

On 2018-11-01 09:15, Duane wrote:
On 01/11/2018 11:21 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 7:02:28 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-01 05:33, Duane wrote:
On 31/10/2018 4:26 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-10-31 10:43, jbeattie wrote:


[...]


... The price was not crazy, either -- even with
postage. I threw it in last night, and it works like a charm. If I
break that part again, I think I would have to get it from some
re-seller in Japan or Germany. That's incredible for a lever that is
maybe two years out of date and for an alleged wear item. This is
now SOP with the constant product upgrades from Shimano. One pines
away for the days when nothing worked that well, but it didn't change
from year to year.


Yep, like my downtube friction shifters. I could always buy new ones
for just a few dollars but nothing breaks.


In my opinion, the single biggest improvement of modern bike tech has
been brifters. I can't imagine using downtube friction shifters now.
Even if replacements are expensive. I don't know though since I've
never replaced anything other than a cable.


Brifters are nice as long as you don't have to shift across the whole
cassette very fast. Like when almost having missed a turn off with an
immediate steep incline.


Oddly enough, everyone from champion DH and cross-country riders to
TdF winners have migrated to brifters.



I need fast shifting only on very hilly up-down terrain and mostly when
I am not very familiar with the trail. Miss an upshift barrage after a
creek and you can stall out on a steep incline.


... Have raced with DT shifters
and brifters, I can say with certainty the latter are better.



On regular terrain, certainly.


... I'm sure
there is some situation that only you encounter on your super-gnarly
trails and hair-raising roads that requires DT shifters, so Go Dog Go!
Keep the DT shifter industry alive. BTW, I raced with both on this
course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrG12-aG_Xc multiple laps up
a 23% climb -- ...



That's road riding where you generally see what's coming.


... a double shift that resulted in a giant compression
back in the DT shifter days.



Huh? What compression? I can shift all the way from large-smallest to
small-largest in under two seconds if needed but only with DT.


... Now look how smoothly it is
accomplished. And with 11sp, a strong rider could big-ring it.



Precise shifts are, of course, a real advantage of indexed shifting. You
can also get that with DT shifters, just not with my old friction shifters.


Yeah, with my SRAM setup I can drop 3 gears with a click. Hard to
imagine getting into a situation where a couple of those clicks wouldn't
be enough. Hell with a modern 11 speed group I can be in the big ring
and turn into an unsuspected ascent and drop the ring without losing a
chain. BTDT. DT shifters belong in museums IMO. Or on bikes ridden by
intrepid daredevils that find that niche where nothing else will work
but what they have.


My Shimano setup only hops one cog per click towards higher gears
(smaller cogs) which is ok. Only two per upshift and that's often not
enough. On my old road bike I can go from one extreme on the cassette to
the other in less than 2sec while simultaneously shifting the front.
Both with one hand.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #16  
Old November 1st 18, 10:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 3,770
Default Nashbar P-Handle Wrenches -- and thank you Royal Mail

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 3:07:51 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
My Shimano setup only hops one cog per click towards higher gears
(smaller cogs) which is ok. Only two per upshift and that's often not
enough. On my old road bike I can go from one extreme on the cassette to
the other in less than 2sec while simultaneously shifting the front.
Both with one hand.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


And where you have to remove one hand from the handlebar in order to make ANY shift. Most people who ride with an regularity can shift across an entire 11 speed cassette whether road or mtb in less than two seconds.

Cheers
  #17  
Old November 2nd 18, 12:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,439
Default Nashbar P-Handle Wrenches -- and thank you Royal Mail

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 2:11:17 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 3:07:51 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
My Shimano setup only hops one cog per click towards higher gears
(smaller cogs) which is ok. Only two per upshift and that's often not
enough. On my old road bike I can go from one extreme on the cassette to
the other in less than 2sec while simultaneously shifting the front.
Both with one hand.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


And where you have to remove one hand from the handlebar in order to make ANY shift. Most people who ride with an regularity can shift across an entire 11 speed cassette whether road or mtb in less than two seconds.


And we've been through this with Joerg before. If DT friction shifting were superior, then every pro would use them -- regardless of sponsor driven component choices. https://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/...overups-50491/

And we're not talking mountain bikes since they have thumb shifters or grip shifters. This is about DT friction shifters on ROAD BIKES.

The only time I wish I could shift faster to a lower gear/bigger cog on a road bike is when I start in my big ring and small cog because I just changed a flat. The obvious solution is to put the bike into a reasonable gear before getting on it. Moreover, I would be (and was) no better off with friction shifters -- which often performed poorly under load. Trying to shift the whole cassette or freewheel while applying a lot of torque was a recipe for putting the chain into the spokes.

I also dumped friction shifters when Shimano introduced 7 speed SIS. I still had DT shifters, but you didn't have to fiddle for a gear in a narrower spaced cassette. You just clicked into it like a Fisher-Price toy. You would have to have pretty well calibrated fingers to friction shift between narrow-spaced 11 speed cassette cogs -- but then again, I've never tried and don't intend to. And I understand that a lot of gears is stupid according to the friction set -- which is another place we part company.

-- Jay Beattie.




  #18  
Old November 2nd 18, 12:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 200
Default Nashbar P-Handle Wrenches -- and thank you Royal Mail

On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 16:12:00 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 2:11:17 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 3:07:51 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
My Shimano setup only hops one cog per click towards higher gears
(smaller cogs) which is ok. Only two per upshift and that's often not
enough. On my old road bike I can go from one extreme on the cassette to
the other in less than 2sec while simultaneously shifting the front.
Both with one hand.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


And where you have to remove one hand from the handlebar in order to make ANY shift. Most people who ride with an regularity can shift across an entire 11 speed cassette whether road or mtb in less than two seconds.


And we've been through this with Joerg before. If DT friction shifting were superior, then every pro would use them -- regardless of sponsor driven component choices. https://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/...overups-50491/

And we're not talking mountain bikes since they have thumb shifters or grip shifters. This is about DT friction shifters on ROAD BIKES.

The only time I wish I could shift faster to a lower gear/bigger cog on a road bike is when I start in my big ring and small cog because I just changed a flat. The obvious solution is to put the bike into a reasonable gear before getting on it. Moreover, I would be (and was) no better off with friction shifters -- which often performed poorly under load. Trying to shift the whole cassette or freewheel while applying a lot of torque was a recipe for putting the chain into the spokes.

I also dumped friction shifters when Shimano introduced 7 speed SIS. I still had DT shifters, but you didn't have to fiddle for a gear in a narrower spaced cassette. You just clicked into it like a Fisher-Price toy. You would have to have pretty well calibrated fingers to friction shift between narrow-spaced 11 speed cassette cogs -- but then again, I've never tried and don't intend to. And I understand that a lot of gears is stupid according to the friction set -- which is another place we part company.

-- Jay Beattie.

Well, I will say that my "Bangkok Bike" still has DT friction shifters
and I find them perfectly satisfactory for riding in Bangkok... Of
course Bangkok is located on an alluvial plain and on my usual 50 - 70
km Sunday ride I shift, perhaps, twice :-)
cheers,

John B.



  #19  
Old November 2nd 18, 12:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,553
Default Nashbar P-Handle Wrenches -- and thank you Royal Mail

On 2018-11-01 16:12, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 2:11:17 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot
wrote:
On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 3:07:51 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
My Shimano setup only hops one cog per click towards higher
gears (smaller cogs) which is ok. Only two per upshift and that's
often not enough. On my old road bike I can go from one extreme
on the cassette to the other in less than 2sec while
simultaneously shifting the front. Both with one hand.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


And where you have to remove one hand from the handlebar in order
to make ANY shift. Most people who ride with an regularity can
shift across an entire 11 speed cassette whether road or mtb in
less than two seconds.



I doubt that, having seen other high-mileage riders clicki-di-clack
through the gears with brifters.


And we've been through this with Joerg before. If DT friction
shifting were superior, then every pro would use them -- regardless
of sponsor driven component choices.
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/...overups-50491/

And we're not talking mountain bikes since they have thumb shifters
or grip shifters. This is about DT friction shifters on ROAD BIKES.


Some people use those offroad.


The only time I wish I could shift faster to a lower gear/bigger cog
on a road bike is when I start in my big ring and small cog because I
just changed a flat. The obvious solution is to put the bike into a
reasonable gear before getting on it. Moreover, I would be (and was)
no better off with friction shifters -- which often performed poorly
under load. Trying to shift the whole cassette or freewheel while
applying a lot of torque was a recipe for putting the chain into the
spokes.

I also dumped friction shifters when Shimano introduced 7 speed SIS.



That, of course, would be preferable but I still like to have the shift
handles for faster extreme shifts. Just like I prefer stick-shift in cars.


I still had DT shifters, but you didn't have to fiddle for a gear in
a narrower spaced cassette. You just clicked into it like a
Fisher-Price toy. You would have to have pretty well calibrated
fingers to friction shift between narrow-spaced 11 speed cassette
cogs -- but then again, I've never tried and don't intend to. And I
understand that a lot of gears is stupid according to the friction
set -- which is another place we part company.


5-6 cogs in back and 3 up front fully suffices for me if they are spaced
coarsely enough. My dream would be just two in front and a 11-40 in back
but with no more than 7 cogs. I might some day hack one together for my
road bike. I rode it with hacked cassettes for a while.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #20  
Old November 2nd 18, 02:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,339
Default Nashbar P-Handle Wrenches -- and thank you Royal Mail

On 11/1/2018 7:12 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 2:11:17 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 3:07:51 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
My Shimano setup only hops one cog per click towards higher gears
(smaller cogs) which is ok. Only two per upshift and that's often not
enough. On my old road bike I can go from one extreme on the cassette to
the other in less than 2sec while simultaneously shifting the front.
Both with one hand.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


And where you have to remove one hand from the handlebar in order to make ANY shift. Most people who ride with an regularity can shift across an entire 11 speed cassette whether road or mtb in less than two seconds.


And we've been through this with Joerg before. If DT friction shifting were superior, then every pro would use them -- regardless of sponsor driven component choices.


Hmm. By the same logic, if fenders were superior to no fenders, then
every pro racer would use them; therefore nobody should use fenders.

That logic works only if your riding style and motivation is similar to
a pro racer. Mine is way, way different, so my equipment choices are way
different.

The only time I wish I could shift faster to a lower gear/bigger cog on a road bike is when I start in my big ring and small cog because I just changed a flat. The obvious solution is to put the bike into a reasonable gear before getting on it. Moreover, I would be (and was) no better off with friction shifters -- which often performed poorly under load. Trying to shift the whole cassette or freewheel while applying a lot of torque was a recipe for putting the chain into the spokes.


I suspect that the poor performance of friction shifters under load has
very little to do with the shifters. I suspect it's an effect of the
(then) primitive cog tooth shapes, and less refined derailleur design.
IOW I think if you buckle a friction shifter onto an otherwise modern
drivetrain, shifting under load would be no problem.

My folding bike (well, one of them) has Shimano 9 speed and bar end
index shifters that can be set to friction mode. I sometimes have to do
that for a while because (I assume) the folding and unfolding unsettles
the cables. I find it shifts very well in friction mode.

I also dumped friction shifters when Shimano introduced 7 speed SIS. I still had DT shifters, but you didn't have to fiddle for a gear in a narrower spaced cassette. You just clicked into it like a Fisher-Price toy. You would have to have pretty well calibrated fingers to friction shift between narrow-spaced 11 speed cassette cogs...


I don't know about 11, but it's no problem at all with 9 cogs.

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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