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Anyone wear a helmet or elbow pads 4 black ice conditions?



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 9th 18, 06:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
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Posts: 6,750
Default Anyone wear a helmet or elbow pads 4 black ice conditions?

On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 11:35:27 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

If there is a chance of black ice, or any ice or slick condition, I
use carbide studded tires on my bike. With studded tires, ice is
irrelevant. Studded tires have perfect grip on ice or anything else.
I use normal helmet and lots of winter cycling clothes when using
studded tires. So I have two, three thicknesses of clothes to protect
my body if I were to fall. But with studded tires, you can't fall.


Not my worry. My worry is motor vehicle operators having even less
control than the normally marginal control they usually have. 3000 lbs
of Volvo smacking into you at 40 mph with a smartphone in one hand and a
coffee in the other makes studded bike tires irrelevant.

If I lived out in the country and had roads more or less to myself, it'd
be a different situation.
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  #22  
Old January 9th 18, 07:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
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Default Anyone wear a helmet or elbow pads 4 black ice conditions?

On Sun, 07 Jan 2018 20:30:21 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 1/7/2018 1:28 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Just wondering if when it's known that there can be black ice on the
roads if anyone here wears a helmet or other protection (such as
elbow pads) that they'd not normally wear when the roads are clear.
Do you?


Well, "it's known that there can be black ice" sounds to me like
"It's near or below freezing."


Surely you need two things for black ice: freezing temperatures and
liquid water. Hoarfrost isn't black, neither is snow. To get
transparent ice on a reasonably crowned road you need quite a bit of
liquid water, so I expect black ice when snow melting temperatures are
quickly followed by temperatures well below freezing.


That's not black ice, that's regular ice.

Black ice is visually transparent, usually formed by condensed moisture
in vehicle exhaust freezing to the roadways. The road can be otherwise
dry without a visual clue. It's more prevalent on bridges because those
road surfaces are colder than roads on top of the ground. Usually this
is a phenomenon that happens below 0F or about -20C, at which
temperatures crystal salts or brines tend to have little benefit.

Here in Minnesota and over by Madison where Andrew is, we get those
conditions multiple times most winters. Since there is no visual cue to
its presence, the first hint is often that vehicle up ahead slewing out
of control... if you're lucky and it's not the vehicle next to you- or
your vehicle. Drivers around here just know to beware when the temps
are down to 0F- it's one of the ways to spot the newbies, too.

I remember driving from Chicago back to Minnesota many years ago as a
young driver. I was on I-90 in the middle of Wisconsin on a bitterly
cold late afternoon; between Madison and the Dells. No snow cover yet,
just danged cold and not a sign of ice on the road. I drove onto a
short three lane bridge with a curve; started out in the inside lane and
a second later was exiting the bridge in the outside lane- white as a
sheet and with eyes like saucers, I'm sure. It was sheer luck I didn't
park it in the guard rail and that there weren't any other cars anywhere
near me.
  #23  
Old January 9th 18, 06:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 5,543
Default Anyone wear a helmet or elbow pads 4 black ice conditions?

On 1/9/2018 1:21 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:


I remember driving from Chicago back to Minnesota many years ago as a
young driver. I was on I-90 in the middle of Wisconsin on a bitterly
cold late afternoon; between Madison and the Dells. No snow cover yet,
just danged cold and not a sign of ice on the road. I drove onto a
short three lane bridge with a curve; started out in the inside lane and
a second later was exiting the bridge in the outside lane- white as a
sheet and with eyes like saucers, I'm sure. It was sheer luck I didn't
park it in the guard rail and that there weren't any other cars anywhere
near me.


As long as we're telling stories: My most exciting winter driving moment
happened when I was in my early 20s. I was motoring along on a two-lane
road on a slippery day. Approaching me up ahead was a large box truck.
Its driver put on his left turn signal and commenced a turn into a
grocery store parking lot.

He didn't make the turn. Instead, his truck began a complete rotation
within the roadway. After 90 degrees it was coming at me perfectly
sideways, taking both lanes. Fortunately, the rotation continued.

There was no way I could stop, of course. I had enough traction to move
to the left (oncoming) lane, and fortunately, there was no other
oncoming traffic. I used that lane to drive past the truck as it slid
backwards along in the right lane I had been using.

I'm not sure, but I think the truck came to a stop on the shoulder still
facing backward. I went on my way, perhaps a little more carefully.

BTW, that was in my '66 Corvair Corsa.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #24  
Old January 10th 18, 01:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
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Posts: 988
Default Anyone wear a helmet or elbow pads 4 black ice conditions?

Tim McNamara writes:

On Sun, 07 Jan 2018 20:30:21 -0500, Radey Shouman
wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 1/7/2018 1:28 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Just wondering if when it's known that there can be black ice on the
roads if anyone here wears a helmet or other protection (such as
elbow pads) that they'd not normally wear when the roads are clear.
Do you?

Well, "it's known that there can be black ice" sounds to me like
"It's near or below freezing."


Surely you need two things for black ice: freezing temperatures and
liquid water. Hoarfrost isn't black, neither is snow. To get
transparent ice on a reasonably crowned road you need quite a bit of
liquid water, so I expect black ice when snow melting temperatures are
quickly followed by temperatures well below freezing.


That's not black ice, that's regular ice.

Black ice is visually transparent, usually formed by condensed moisture
in vehicle exhaust freezing to the roadways. The road can be otherwise
dry without a visual clue. It's more prevalent on bridges because those
road surfaces are colder than roads on top of the ground. Usually this
is a phenomenon that happens below 0F or about -20C, at which
temperatures crystal salts or brines tend to have little benefit.

Here in Minnesota and over by Madison where Andrew is, we get those
conditions multiple times most winters. Since there is no visual cue to
its presence, the first hint is often that vehicle up ahead slewing out
of control... if you're lucky and it's not the vehicle next to you- or
your vehicle. Drivers around here just know to beware when the temps
are down to 0F- it's one of the ways to spot the newbies, too.


I won't hold myself out as an expert on ice, nor have I lived anywhere
that 0F temperatures are really commonplace. But I have watched this
bit by Key and Peele repeatedly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efiW2K8gASM

and find it as illuminating as anything else. Having heard a number of
black ice stories, my working definition of black ice is a thin,
transparent layer of ice on the roadway, that *took me by surprise*.


You are correct in that 0F is around the limit of efficacy of road salt,
so brine that has melted during the day, and adsorbed water, either from
ambient humidity or vehicle exhaust, tends to freeze. This may be
surprising to drivers. I don't believe it's true that bridges tend to
be colder than other roadways. I think bridge decks tend to change
temperature, either up or down, faster than other roadways, which may
freeze more brine before it gets a chance to run off.

I remember driving from Chicago back to Minnesota many years ago as a
young driver. I was on I-90 in the middle of Wisconsin on a bitterly
cold late afternoon; between Madison and the Dells. No snow cover yet,
just danged cold and not a sign of ice on the road. I drove onto a
short three lane bridge with a curve; started out in the inside lane and
a second later was exiting the bridge in the outside lane- white as a
sheet and with eyes like saucers, I'm sure. It was sheer luck I didn't
park it in the guard rail and that there weren't any other cars anywhere
near me.


I remember driving from Austin (TX, not MN) to Dallas in December. It
had rained, and the temperature fell rapidly to below freezing,
solidifying lots of dew. It was humid enough that the carburetor in my
car actually froze up (I could see ice in the throat after removing the
air cleaner). Fortunately exposure to small planes had made me aware of
carburetor icing, and I scavenged a piece of cardboard from the side
of the road to put in front of the radiator in order to continue.

When I got to Dallas there was ice everywhere -- on the fences, on the
bushes, and all over the road. Large vehicles were doing their
impression of the hippos in Fantasia. It was hard to walk on any paved
surfaces. Naturally, Dallas doesn't have *any* road salting or sanding
equipment, nor is salt or sand stockpiled, so the ice there is as black
at 25F as it is in Minnesota at -5F.

To get back to bicycling, it seems to me that cyclists actually have a
few advantages when it comes to detecting ice: a better view of the
roadway, slower speed, a sensitivity to that "oh ****" feeling caused by
even a very momentary loss of traction, and, if you're as timid as I
have become, a ready resignation to slowing down for poor conditions.

Of course, it is still possible to fall on the ice, as I have proven to
myself several times. That could hurt, especially in traffic.

Tonight, riding home from work, it was warm, right around freezing. I
detoured around a number of patches of roadway snow, but didn't see much
ice. I did see a number of patches of water, which may have frozen by
now.
--
  #25  
Old January 10th 18, 02:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
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Posts: 522
Default Anyone wear a helmet or elbow pads 4 black ice conditions?

Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Just wondering if when it's known that there
can be black ice on the roads if anyone here
wears a helmet or other protection (such as
elbow pads) that they'd not normally wear
when the roads are clear. Do you?


I have 56 width tires (2.20 or 2 inches) even
tho it isn't a MTB, and the tires have
drive/direction and an aggressive tread.

When I put them on, I thought, "great, now
I don't need studded tires anymore in the
winter", but this has proved incorrect.

But I only slipped once (this winter), and that
was when jumping on the bike and turning at the
same time. The back wagon loosed touch and
slided for half a meter or so. An unpleasant
moment of mini-panic, for sure, until
I regain control.

However when riding down the small slopes and
valleys we do (don't) have here, I feel the
grip isn't 100 as it is with studded tires, and
I feel a little less bold. I think about it
then, but the only time it could actually loose
touch is when turning, for example in
roundabouts, and that was exactly the case with
44-622s as well.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #26  
Old January 10th 18, 07:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 6,335
Default Anyone wear a helmet or elbow pads 4 black ice conditions?

On Saturday, January 6, 2018 at 11:28:40 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Just wondering if when it's known that there can be black ice on the roads if anyone here wears a helmet or other protection (such as elbow pads) that they'd not normally wear when the roads are clear. Do you?

Cheers


as a snow country biker, does SR use studded tires /
  #27  
Old January 10th 18, 11:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 3,602
Default Anyone wear a helmet or elbow pads 4 black ice conditions?

On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 1:25:58 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, January 6, 2018 at 11:28:40 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Just wondering if when it's known that there can be black ice on the roads if anyone here wears a helmet or other protection (such as elbow pads) that they'd not normally wear when the roads are clear. Do you?

Cheers


as a snow country biker, does SR use studded tires /


No, no studs for me. I drop; the air pressure a fair bit if I think I'll be on black ice. Early in the season I take the bike to an outdoor ice rimnks after dark when the rink is closed (It's a temporary one they build forthe winter in a park) and practice riding the bike on that ice.

Btw, contrary to many who believe that black ice is always thin, that's not always true and also, black ice can form very quickly even if the air temperature is above freezing but the moisture is in shade and thus quite a bit cooler.

Cheers
  #28  
Old January 11th 18, 05:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
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Posts: 436
Default Anyone wear a helmet or elbow pads 4 black ice conditions?

On 1/7/2018 11:35 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 12:28:40 AM UTC-6, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Just wondering if when it's known that there can be black ice on the roads if anyone here wears a helmet or other protection (such as elbow pads) that they'd not normally wear when the roads are clear. Do you?

Cheers


If there is a chance of black ice, or any ice or slick condition, I use carbide studded tires on my bike. With studded tires, ice is irrelevant. Studded tires have perfect grip on ice or anything else. I use normal helmet and lots of winter cycling clothes when using studded tires. So I have two, three thicknesses of clothes to protect my body if I were to fall. But with studded tires, you can't fall.


I agree that studs make ice (mostly) irrelevant. (See what others have
posted about uncontrolled larger vehicles in the vicinity.) But you
/can/ fall with studs, I've done it, though I haven't on "just ice."
Deep snow /over/ ice, that's another matter. This is a pretty rare
condition around here.

When the snow is so deep, though, the fall is more likely to cause
embarrassment than injury.

I swap in a studded front wheel when there's a chance of black ice on my
commute. When ice/snow are more certain, stud both wheels.

Amusing tale:

Long ago I was commuting in Colorado year round. Made my first set of
studded tires. Toodling to work on the studs, there was a stoplight
where the crossroad was steeply crowned. My light turns green but
there's a car creeping to a stop on the crossroad. I wait.

Car slows to walking pace and starts to slide, then slides to its right
toward a very tall curb, which it impacts with the bumper, "thunk".
/Then/ I proceed, feeling smug.

Mark J.


  #29  
Old January 11th 18, 05:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
David Scheidt
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Posts: 1,194
Default Anyone wear a helmet or elbow pads 4 black ice conditions?

Mark J. wrote:
:On 1/7/2018 11:35 AM, wrote:
: On Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 12:28:40 AM UTC-6, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
: Just wondering if when it's known that there can be black ice on the roads if anyone here wears a helmet or other protection (such as elbow pads) that they'd not normally wear when the roads are clear. Do you?
:
: Cheers
:
: If there is a chance of black ice, or any ice or slick condition, I use carbide studded tires on my bike. With studded tires, ice is irrelevant. Studded tires have perfect grip on ice or anything else. I use normal helmet and lots of winter cycling clothes when using studded tires. So I have two, three thicknesses of clothes to protect my body if I were to fall. But with studded tires, you can't fall.

:I agree that studs make ice (mostly) irrelevant. (See what others have
osted about uncontrolled larger vehicles in the vicinity.) But you
:/can/ fall with studs, I've done it, though I haven't on "just ice."
eep snow /over/ ice, that's another matter. This is a pretty rare
:condition around here.

:When the snow is so deep, though, the fall is more likely to cause
:embarrassment than injury.

:I swap in a studded front wheel when there's a chance of black ice on my
:commute. When ice/snow are more certain, stud both wheels.

:Amusing tale:

:Long ago I was commuting in Colorado year round. Made my first set of
:studded tires. Toodling to work on the studs, there was a stoplight
:where the crossroad was steeply crowned. My light turns green but
:there's a car creeping to a stop on the crossroad. I wait.

My first experience with studded tires: I was visting a frined in
Burlington VT. there had been an ice storm, everything was coated in
half an inch of ice. I was tasked with buying beer. I went to walk
the couple blocks to the store, uphill. I coulnd't, I just fell down
and down, and down. Friend told me "Take the bike". I protested I
coulnd't walk, how can I ride? He showed me the studs. I went for a
ride (and a bit of a joy ride, because No Traffic.) Got to the liquor
store, put my foot down, fell over.




--
sig 116
  #30  
Old January 11th 18, 07:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 5,543
Default Anyone wear a helmet or elbow pads 4 black ice conditions?

On 1/11/2018 11:21 AM, Mark J. wrote:
On 1/7/2018 11:35 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 12:28:40 AM UTC-6, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Just wondering if when it's known that there can be black ice on the
roads if anyone here wears a helmet or other protection (such as
elbow pads) that they'd not normally wear when the roads are clear.
Do you?

Cheers


If there is a chance of black ice, or any ice or slick condition, I
use carbide studded tires on my bike.* With studded tires, ice is
irrelevant.* Studded tires have perfect grip on ice or anything else.
I use normal helmet and lots of winter cycling clothes when using
studded tires.* So I have two, three thicknesses of clothes to protect
my body if I were to fall.* But with studded tires, you can't fall.


I agree that studs make ice (mostly) irrelevant.* (See what others have
posted about uncontrolled larger vehicles in the vicinity.)* But you
/can/ fall with studs, I've done it, though I haven't on "just ice."
Deep snow /over/ ice, that's another matter.* This is a pretty rare
condition around here.


I have one friend who was riding home from work in winter on studded
tires, very pleased at their traction. But as he turned into his
driveway, he fell when crossing the melted and re-frozen pile from the
snowplow. He broke his collarbone.

This doesn't meant falls are common with studded tires. But falling
isn't impossible.


--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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