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  #61  
Old January 13th 18, 03:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,016
Default DIY China

Andre Jute wrote:

As for Sumeria, all empires fall eventually.
Vide the Roman, the British, the Soviet,
eventually but not for a while yet the
American (amazing how Trump is staying the
rot, and pushing back), and after that the
Chinese. Nah, I don't think the EU will get
a turn; it's too self-confused and
demographically suicidal.


The Soviet Empire have fallen but Russia is
still the second strongest military power on
the face of the earth with a nuclear arsenal at
a whole other level than China's.

Besides, China is dependent on Russia for much
of their arms, and they are dependent on the US
and the EU to buy all the stuff the
manufacture.

China could never conquer either Russia, the
EU, or the US military.

While we could in turn probably never conquer
them either, at least NATO and Russia could
nuke them "back to the stone age" as the saying
goes (which BTW is unfair to the many very
advanced stone age civilizations which didn't
show any signs of being the victims of an
atomic holocaust).

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Ads
  #62  
Old January 13th 18, 04:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,738
Default DIY China

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 3:44:57 AM UTC, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

As for Sumeria, all empires fall eventually.
Vide the Roman, the British, the Soviet,
eventually but not for a while yet the
American (amazing how Trump is staying the
rot, and pushing back), and after that the
Chinese. Nah, I don't think the EU will get
a turn; it's too self-confused and
demographically suicidal.


The Soviet Empire have fallen but Russia is
still the second strongest military power on
the face of the earth with a nuclear arsenal at
a whole other level than China's.

Besides, China is dependent on Russia for much
of their arms, and they are dependent on the US
and the EU to buy all the stuff the
manufacture.

China could never conquer either Russia, the
EU, or the US military.

While we could in turn probably never conquer
them either, at least NATO and Russia could
nuke them "back to the stone age" as the saying
goes (which BTW is unfair to the many very
advanced stone age civilizations which didn't
show any signs of being the victims of an
atomic holocaust).

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573


Much less advanced, indeed backward and savage, countries are already taking over the EU without firing a shot, by the invitation of Angela Merkel. It's called immigration.

[sgnd] aboveground and keen to stay there
  #63  
Old January 14th 18, 06:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,016
Default handlebar

Frank Krygowski wrote:

In my kitchen, I find that knives are
magnetic. They're almost certainly
martensitic stainless steel, which can
be hardened.


martensitic stainless steel, magnetic, can be
hardened with heat treatment

Our measuring cups and measuring spoons are
non-magnetic, which means they're
probably austenitic.


austenitic ditto, non-magnetic, cannot be
hardened

Also, obviously, aluminum is noticeably less
dense. Unless it's anodized, it's also softer
(i.e. easier to scratch).


anodize, to put on an oxide coating on
aluminium

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #64  
Old January 14th 18, 07:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,887
Default handlebar

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:38:48 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Take one piece of aluminium and one piece
of stainless steel and hold it in ur hand -
they must be the same size, you can feel
the weight different: aluminium is much
lighter, while stainless is much heavier.


It depends on the type of stainless steel. Exotic alloys, complex
heat treatment, and a lengthy annealing process, will produce a
stainless steel that is quite strong and suitable for bicycle frames
(and by implication, handlebars):
http://www.kvastainless.com/tubing-info.html
http://www.kvastainless.com/bicycles/
http://www.kvastainless.com/technical-library.html

The problem is that while steel is fairly cheap, the necessary
elements needed to make stainless (nickel, chromium, vanadium,
silicon, manganese, phosphor, sulfur, etc) will raise the cost. As an
added bonus, stainless work hardens very easily, making fabrication
difficult and expensive.
http://www.qtstools.com/TechInfo/SAE%20steel%20grades.htm

Ferro-chrome ore (which contains about 50-75% chromium), sells for
$2.80/kg (Oct 2017 prices).
http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/ferro-chrome/
while iron ore runs about $0.30/kg.
http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/iron-ore-fines/
Very roughly, that would make 20% Chromium stainless cost about
$5.00/kg, while a simple high carbon steel, would be about 1/10th the
prices of stainless.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #65  
Old January 14th 18, 07:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,271
Default handlebar

On 1/14/2018 1:41 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

In my kitchen, I find that knives are
magnetic. They're almost certainly
martensitic stainless steel, which can
be hardened.


martensitic stainless steel, magnetic, can be
hardened with heat treatment

Our measuring cups and measuring spoons are
non-magnetic, which means they're
probably austenitic.


austenitic ditto, non-magnetic, cannot be
hardened

Also, obviously, aluminum is noticeably less
dense. Unless it's anodized, it's also softer
(i.e. easier to scratch).


anodize, to put on an oxide coating on
aluminium


All correct. We should add, magnetic vs. non-magnetic is not really a
binary situation. There are materials that are weakly magnetic, others
that are strongly magnetic, etc.

I'm still wondering why the handlebar material is so important to you.
Is it just a curiosity thing? (Curiosity is generally good, of course.)


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #66  
Old January 14th 18, 07:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,271
Default handlebar

On 1/14/2018 2:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:38:48 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Take one piece of aluminium and one piece
of stainless steel and hold it in ur hand -
they must be the same size, you can feel
the weight different: aluminium is much
lighter, while stainless is much heavier.


It depends on the type of stainless steel. Exotic alloys, complex
heat treatment, and a lengthy annealing process, will produce a
stainless steel that is quite strong and suitable for bicycle frames
(and by implication, handlebars):
http://www.kvastainless.com/tubing-info.html
http://www.kvastainless.com/bicycles/
http://www.kvastainless.com/technical-library.html


That's a precipitation hardening stainless steel. That's _very_ exotic
stuff.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #67  
Old January 14th 18, 10:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,887
Default handlebar

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:32:16 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/14/2018 2:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:38:48 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Take one piece of aluminium and one piece
of stainless steel and hold it in ur hand -
they must be the same size, you can feel
the weight different: aluminium is much
lighter, while stainless is much heavier.


It depends on the type of stainless steel. Exotic alloys, complex
heat treatment, and a lengthy annealing process, will produce a
stainless steel that is quite strong and suitable for bicycle frames
(and by implication, handlebars):
http://www.kvastainless.com/tubing-info.html
http://www.kvastainless.com/bicycles/
http://www.kvastainless.com/technical-library.html


That's a precipitation hardening stainless steel. That's _very_ exotic
stuff.


It may be a pain in the posterior to heat treat, with the steel at
480C-800C for 4 hours waiting for a precipitate to form, but methinks
it's becoming more common, available, and possibly affordable:
http://www.outokumpu.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Outokumpu-martensitic-grade-630-data-sheet.pdf
17-4 PH stainless (also known as UNS S17400 or SAE T-630) seems to be
available in various flavors:
http://www.matweb.com/search/quicktext.aspx?SearchText=UNS+S17400%20stainless
http://www.matweb.com/search/QuickText.aspx?SearchText=17-4%20stainless
for a multitude of mundane applications:
https://www.tubehollows.com/alloys/stainless-steels/17-4
"...alloy 17-4 PH is a superb choice for structural components
of airplanes, biomedical hand tools, food processing equipment,
pulp and paper mill processing and nuclear waste processing
and storage."
The tubing is supplied as "solution treated" at moderate hardness,
which can be machined and possibly hydroformed into components. Once
that's done, a simple low temperature heat treatment (age hardening)
brings it up to full strength.

There's also 17-7 PH which seems to more appropriate for tubing:
https://www.tubehollows.com/alloys/stainless-steels/17-7

No clue on the cost of such a 17-4 PH frame or handlebar:
http://www.kvastainless.com/inox-bicycles.html

Mo
"The Surge of Stainless Steel"
https://roadbikeaction.com/features/rba-features/the-surge-of-stainless-steel
http://www.bobbrowncycles.com/stainless_frames.htm
https://www.google.com/search?q=stainless+steel+bicycle+frame&tbm=isch

Drivel: How about a frame from conglomerated materials? In the frame
triangle, use one tube each of aluminum, stainless steel, and carbon
fiber. The other tubes can be a mix of plastic, ordinary steel, wood,
bamboo, and titanium, using whatever material is best suited for the
particular structural member. Soon everyone will be riding around on
non-homogenous frames.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #68  
Old January 14th 18, 10:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,738
Default handlebar

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 7:01:32 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:38:48 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Take one piece of aluminium and one piece
of stainless steel and hold it in ur hand -
they must be the same size, you can feel
the weight different: aluminium is much
lighter, while stainless is much heavier.


It depends on the type of stainless steel. Exotic alloys, complex
heat treatment, and a lengthy annealing process, will produce a
stainless steel that is quite strong and suitable for bicycle frames
(and by implication, handlebars):
http://www.kvastainless.com/tubing-info.html
http://www.kvastainless.com/bicycles/
http://www.kvastainless.com/technical-library.html

The problem is that while steel is fairly cheap, the necessary
elements needed to make stainless (nickel, chromium, vanadium,
silicon, manganese, phosphor, sulfur, etc) will raise the cost. As an
added bonus, stainless work hardens very easily, making fabrication
difficult and expensive.
http://www.qtstools.com/TechInfo/SAE%20steel%20grades.htm

Ferro-chrome ore (which contains about 50-75% chromium), sells for
$2.80/kg (Oct 2017 prices).
http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/ferro-chrome/
while iron ore runs about $0.30/kg.
http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/iron-ore-fines/
Very roughly, that would make 20% Chromium stainless cost about
$5.00/kg, while a simple high carbon steel, would be about 1/10th the
prices of stainless.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


Wrong viewpoint, I think, Jeff. Observably bikes in bicycle-type butted tubes of stainless steel don't cost ten or however many times as much as a bike in other alloys of steel made to the same pattern by the same maker. P&P Noblex stainless (no longer made though you can still get a bike in Noblex if you know where to go) and Reynolds (several stainless lines compared he http://road.cc/content/news/98763-re...beset-revealed ) (1) stainless bikes certainly cost more than straight steel bikes but not magnitudes, nor even whole multiples in most cases. I went into this when I was trying to get my smalltube frame design built, when I discovered that stainless could in fact be a cheap option compared to some aeronautics-grade mild steels.

(1) There was a third maker of stainless tube sets for bicycles just starting up about ten, twelve years ago when I was taking an interest. I don't know whether they ever made much of a mark.

Andre Jute
The only thing about German steel bike I don't like is their virtue-signalling, Gaia butt-kissing, waterbased paint, though in practice it has worked well for my bikes, which live in a heated space and hardly ever see loose gravel. I like hard, chip resistant, oven-baked paints. Once a hotrodder, always a Duco-lover.

  #69  
Old January 14th 18, 10:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,887
Default handlebar

On Fri, 12 Jan 2018 14:53:02 -0500, Duane
wrote:

On 11/01/2018 8:27 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Duane wrote:

What are is your interest in the material?
Weight? Strength? Rust?


To understand why I hear all the time they
break while my intuition tells me this has
never been even close to happening to me.


Over a lot of years of cycling using steel, aluminum and CF bars I've
never broken one either. I think Jay is the only one I've heard of
breaking a bar where a crash wasn't involved. I don't climb as much as
he does though.


Same here. All the bars I've seen that were broken or bent were
previously involved in some form of accident, crash, or handling
mishap. For metal, a dent will produce a stress riser, which will
eventually tear the metal. For carbon fiber, construction practices
seem to be the main culprit. In of the following image searches, I
see only three broken aluminum handlebars. The rest are CF:
https://www.google.com/search?q=broken+bicycle+handlebar&tbm=isch
https://www.google.com/search?q=failed+bicycle+handlebar&tbm=isch
Nothing he
http://pardo.net/bike/pic/

Now that I think of it, I've seen more broken stems than broken
handlebars.
https://www.google.com/search?q=broken+bicycle+stem&tbm=isch
My guess(tm) is that the stem is weaker than the handlebar. In a
carsh, the weaker stem then sacrifices itself to protect the
handlebar. Aluminum and steel handlebars also have some flex, which
gives a less tiring ride.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #70  
Old January 14th 18, 11:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,887
Default handlebar

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:23:08 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 7:01:32 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Ferro-chrome ore (which contains about 50-75% chromium), sells for
$2.80/kg (Oct 2017 prices).
http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/ferro-chrome/
while iron ore runs about $0.30/kg.
http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/iron-ore-fines/
Very roughly, that would make 20% Chromium stainless cost about
$5.00/kg, while a simple high carbon steel, would be about 1/10th the
prices of stainless.


Wrong viewpoint, I think, Jeff.


Please note the "Very roughly" prefix, which acts as repudiation of
responsibility and disclaimer should I have screwed up the math. In
this case, I totally ignored any material or labor costs incurred
beyond the base materials. I also lacked a usable price comparison
between finished frames in steel and high strength stainless steel.

Observably bikes in bicycle-type butted tubes of stainless steel
don't cost ten or however many times as much as a bike in other
alloys of steel made to the same pattern by the same maker.


True. Please change "would be about 1/10th the price of stainless" to
"would be about 1/10th the materials cost of stainless".

I went into this when I was trying to get my smalltube frame
design built, when I discovered that stainless could in fact be
a cheap option compared to some aeronautics-grade mild steels.


Hmmm... sounds like a good idea. You could then advertise the small
diameter tubing as "low aerodynamic drag".

Incidentally, I've recently taken up knife sharpening, which led me to
knife making. That has forced me to do some reading on metallurgy,
heat treating, machining practices, etc. At this point, it's all a
big muddle to me, but I'm slowing beginning to sort things out. Oddly,
much has changed in the last half century.

(1) There was a third maker of stainless tube sets for bicycles
just starting up about ten, twelve years ago when I was taking
an interest. I don't know whether they ever made much of a mark.


Ummm... Columbus XCr perhaps?
http://www.columbustubi.com/eng/3_3.htm

The only thing about German steel bike I don't like is their
virtue-signalling, Gaia butt-kissing, waterbased paint, though
in practice it has worked well for my bikes, which live in a
heated space and hardly ever see loose gravel. I like hard,
chip resistant, oven-baked paints.


The ecologically correct replacement for VoC (volatile organic
chemicals) is power coating the bicycle frame:
https://www.missionbicycle.com/blog/oversimplified-powder-coat-vs-paint
Powder coating can handle considerable abuse. For small parts, you
can melt the power in a toaster oven. The hardware and powder are
commonly available:
https://www.eastwood.com/hotcoat-powder-coating.html
https://www.harborfreight.com/10-30-psi-powder-coating-system-94244.html

Once a hotrodder, always a Duco-lover.


Yeah, I miss lacquer paints.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacquer#Nitrocellulose_lacquers
However, acrylic enamel is a tolerable auto paint substitute,
--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 




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