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Designers vs. engineers



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 6th 19, 10:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
David Scheidt
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Posts: 1,310
Default Designers vs. engineers

Frank Krygowski wrote:
:On 3/6/2019 1:12 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
: Zen Cycle wrote:
:
: :A good friend of mine is a general contractor that builds private homes for a living. He says the worst people he has to deal with are architects.
:
: Architects and engineers say the same thing about contractors.

:I suppose it's about different priorities. The contractor wants to get
:the job done quickly so he can get paid and move on to the next project.
:But ISTM that these days, lots of architects want to express their
:sculptural talents, no matter how difficult it is for the contractor.

:One of my best friends and his little company expanded our house, adding
:a shed dormer to the upstairs of our little Cape Cod. I did most of the
:design work, but had an architect do the details and draw it up.

:Anyway, I specified thicker walls and extra insulation. My friend kept
:asking "Are you _sure_ you want that?" Especially when framing and
:finishing the windows, it was more work for him. But I held out, and
:remain glad.

A buddy redid his basement. much of the specifications were about
noise reduction. Walls were to be done with 2x6 top and bottom plates, but
2x4 studs. the studs were staggered, so that the first one was flush
with one edge, and the next stud was flush with the opposite edge.
Drywall was two layers, hung on resilliant channel, and glued together
with special glue. He caught the framers using regular 2x6 walls.
then the drywallers hung regular drywall directly to the studs. The
GC blamed the subs, but the drywallers claimed they were never told it
was anything unusual. I don't know if the GC was just stupid, or were
actively cutting corners, but they should have realized that someone
who gives them drawings like that is going to check. they did give
the electricians the drawings that showed were every outlet and switch
box went (again, weirdlly speced to lower nois transmission.)



--
sig 25
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  #22  
Old March 6th 19, 11:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 805
Default Designers vs. engineers

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 15:52:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/6/2019 1:12 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
Zen Cycle wrote:

:A good friend of mine is a general contractor that builds private homes for a living. He says the worst people he has to deal with are architects.

Architects and engineers say the same thing about contractors.


I suppose it's about different priorities. The contractor wants to get
the job done quickly so he can get paid and move on to the next project.
But ISTM that these days, lots of architects want to express their
sculptural talents, no matter how difficult it is for the contractor.

One of my best friends and his little company expanded our house, adding
a shed dormer to the upstairs of our little Cape Cod. I did most of the
design work, but had an architect do the details and draw it up.

Anyway, I specified thicker walls and extra insulation. My friend kept
asking "Are you _sure_ you want that?" Especially when framing and
finishing the windows, it was more work for him. But I held out, and
remain glad.


But, when someone designs a house and has a contractor build it
doesn't both the designer and the contractor demand specifications?

Our "Bangkok House" we had built and the builder/designer specified
everything from depth of the foundations to the peak of the roof. How
else could he cost out the project?

--
Cheers,
John B.


  #23  
Old March 7th 19, 12:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,283
Default Designers vs. engineers

On 3/6/2019 6:04 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 15:52:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/6/2019 1:12 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
Zen Cycle wrote:

:A good friend of mine is a general contractor that builds private homes for a living. He says the worst people he has to deal with are architects.

Architects and engineers say the same thing about contractors.


I suppose it's about different priorities. The contractor wants to get
the job done quickly so he can get paid and move on to the next project.
But ISTM that these days, lots of architects want to express their
sculptural talents, no matter how difficult it is for the contractor.

One of my best friends and his little company expanded our house, adding
a shed dormer to the upstairs of our little Cape Cod. I did most of the
design work, but had an architect do the details and draw it up.

Anyway, I specified thicker walls and extra insulation. My friend kept
asking "Are you _sure_ you want that?" Especially when framing and
finishing the windows, it was more work for him. But I held out, and
remain glad.


But, when someone designs a house and has a contractor build it
doesn't both the designer and the contractor demand specifications?

Our "Bangkok House" we had built and the builder/designer specified
everything from depth of the foundations to the peak of the roof. How
else could he cost out the project?


Oh, in my case there certainly were specifications. I think my friend
was just hoping the odd (to him) specifications didn't matter to me,
since they made his job a bit harder.

When he started that job, I was still only semi-retired. I was doing
things like grading papers during the day when he and his helpers were
working upstairs. But that lasted only a couple days. Of course the work
interested me greatly, and I couldn't prevent myself from working as
another helper, essentially for free.

It did give me a chance to be sure things were done as I wanted. It also
gave me a chance to photograph a lot of the project. That could be handy
if I want to cut into the walls for some reason in the future; I'll know
exactly where framing members, wiring, water pipes etc. run.

(In my fantasy world, every house would come with a full, detailed set
of original prints plus a detailed log book of all modifications since
then.)


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #24  
Old March 7th 19, 01:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default Designers vs. engineers

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 19:13:11 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/6/2019 6:04 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 15:52:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/6/2019 1:12 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
Zen Cycle wrote:

:A good friend of mine is a general contractor that builds private homes for a living. He says the worst people he has to deal with are architects.

Architects and engineers say the same thing about contractors.

I suppose it's about different priorities. The contractor wants to get
the job done quickly so he can get paid and move on to the next project.
But ISTM that these days, lots of architects want to express their
sculptural talents, no matter how difficult it is for the contractor.

One of my best friends and his little company expanded our house, adding
a shed dormer to the upstairs of our little Cape Cod. I did most of the
design work, but had an architect do the details and draw it up.

Anyway, I specified thicker walls and extra insulation. My friend kept
asking "Are you _sure_ you want that?" Especially when framing and
finishing the windows, it was more work for him. But I held out, and
remain glad.


But, when someone designs a house and has a contractor build it
doesn't both the designer and the contractor demand specifications?

Our "Bangkok House" we had built and the builder/designer specified
everything from depth of the foundations to the peak of the roof. How
else could he cost out the project?


Oh, in my case there certainly were specifications. I think my friend
was just hoping the odd (to him) specifications didn't matter to me,
since they made his job a bit harder.

When he started that job, I was still only semi-retired. I was doing
things like grading papers during the day when he and his helpers were
working upstairs. But that lasted only a couple days. Of course the work
interested me greatly, and I couldn't prevent myself from working as
another helper, essentially for free.

It did give me a chance to be sure things were done as I wanted. It also
gave me a chance to photograph a lot of the project. That could be handy
if I want to cut into the walls for some reason in the future; I'll know
exactly where framing members, wiring, water pipes etc. run.

(In my fantasy world, every house would come with a full, detailed set
of original prints plus a detailed log book of all modifications since
then.)


Here, in Bangkok, to build a new house it has to be designed by a
qualified architect and a copy of the "blue prints" filed with the
city government in order to get a building permit... although I'm not
sure how often that is actually done, or if it is done, how often the
work is inspected during construction.

Re log books... But how often does one make modifications to a house.
Certainly it can be done but in reality it very seldom happens. I
don't know how many times we have had friends say something like,
"gee, I wish the whatsit was in the other room" and when I say, "then
move it" they say, "Oh, but that is a big job".

--
Cheers,
John B.


  #25  
Old March 7th 19, 01:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 344
Default Designers vs. engineers

John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 19:13:11 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/6/2019 6:04 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 15:52:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/6/2019 1:12 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
Zen Cycle wrote:

:A good friend of mine is a general contractor that builds private
homes for a living. He says the worst people he has to deal with are architects.

Architects and engineers say the same thing about contractors.

I suppose it's about different priorities. The contractor wants to get
the job done quickly so he can get paid and move on to the next project.
But ISTM that these days, lots of architects want to express their
sculptural talents, no matter how difficult it is for the contractor.

One of my best friends and his little company expanded our house, adding
a shed dormer to the upstairs of our little Cape Cod. I did most of the
design work, but had an architect do the details and draw it up.

Anyway, I specified thicker walls and extra insulation. My friend kept
asking "Are you _sure_ you want that?" Especially when framing and
finishing the windows, it was more work for him. But I held out, and
remain glad.

But, when someone designs a house and has a contractor build it
doesn't both the designer and the contractor demand specifications?

Our "Bangkok House" we had built and the builder/designer specified
everything from depth of the foundations to the peak of the roof. How
else could he cost out the project?


Oh, in my case there certainly were specifications. I think my friend
was just hoping the odd (to him) specifications didn't matter to me,
since they made his job a bit harder.

When he started that job, I was still only semi-retired. I was doing
things like grading papers during the day when he and his helpers were
working upstairs. But that lasted only a couple days. Of course the work
interested me greatly, and I couldn't prevent myself from working as
another helper, essentially for free.

It did give me a chance to be sure things were done as I wanted. It also
gave me a chance to photograph a lot of the project. That could be handy
if I want to cut into the walls for some reason in the future; I'll know
exactly where framing members, wiring, water pipes etc. run.

(In my fantasy world, every house would come with a full, detailed set
of original prints plus a detailed log book of all modifications since
then.)


Here, in Bangkok, to build a new house it has to be designed by a
qualified architect and a copy of the "blue prints" filed with the
city government in order to get a building permit... although I'm not
sure how often that is actually done, or if it is done, how often the
work is inspected during construction.

Re log books... But how often does one make modifications to a house.
Certainly it can be done but in reality it very seldom happens. I
don't know how many times we have had friends say something like,
"gee, I wish the whatsit was in the other room" and when I say, "then
move it" they say, "Oh, but that is a big job".

--
Cheers,
John B.




While our current house was being built, I had planned to take pictures of
all the interiors before they put the insulation and drywall up, but I
missed it by one day. There have been times since when having the
equivalent of X-ray vision would have been nice.

  #26  
Old March 7th 19, 02:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 805
Default Designers vs. engineers

On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 01:53:21 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 19:13:11 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/6/2019 6:04 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 15:52:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/6/2019 1:12 PM, David Scheidt wrote:
Zen Cycle wrote:

:A good friend of mine is a general contractor that builds private
homes for a living. He says the worst people he has to deal with are architects.

Architects and engineers say the same thing about contractors.

I suppose it's about different priorities. The contractor wants to get
the job done quickly so he can get paid and move on to the next project.
But ISTM that these days, lots of architects want to express their
sculptural talents, no matter how difficult it is for the contractor.

One of my best friends and his little company expanded our house, adding
a shed dormer to the upstairs of our little Cape Cod. I did most of the
design work, but had an architect do the details and draw it up.

Anyway, I specified thicker walls and extra insulation. My friend kept
asking "Are you _sure_ you want that?" Especially when framing and
finishing the windows, it was more work for him. But I held out, and
remain glad.

But, when someone designs a house and has a contractor build it
doesn't both the designer and the contractor demand specifications?

Our "Bangkok House" we had built and the builder/designer specified
everything from depth of the foundations to the peak of the roof. How
else could he cost out the project?

Oh, in my case there certainly were specifications. I think my friend
was just hoping the odd (to him) specifications didn't matter to me,
since they made his job a bit harder.

When he started that job, I was still only semi-retired. I was doing
things like grading papers during the day when he and his helpers were
working upstairs. But that lasted only a couple days. Of course the work
interested me greatly, and I couldn't prevent myself from working as
another helper, essentially for free.

It did give me a chance to be sure things were done as I wanted. It also
gave me a chance to photograph a lot of the project. That could be handy
if I want to cut into the walls for some reason in the future; I'll know
exactly where framing members, wiring, water pipes etc. run.

(In my fantasy world, every house would come with a full, detailed set
of original prints plus a detailed log book of all modifications since
then.)


Here, in Bangkok, to build a new house it has to be designed by a
qualified architect and a copy of the "blue prints" filed with the
city government in order to get a building permit... although I'm not
sure how often that is actually done, or if it is done, how often the
work is inspected during construction.

Re log books... But how often does one make modifications to a house.
Certainly it can be done but in reality it very seldom happens. I
don't know how many times we have had friends say something like,
"gee, I wish the whatsit was in the other room" and when I say, "then
move it" they say, "Oh, but that is a big job".

--
Cheers,
John B.




While our current house was being built, I had planned to take pictures of
all the interiors before they put the insulation and drywall up, but I
missed it by one day. There have been times since when having the
equivalent of X-ray vision would have been nice.


Certainly, and I have cursed the building gods when trying to add an
electrical receptacle, but we lived in the Bangkok house for 30 years,
or so, and I think I added electrical outlets only once.

--
Cheers,
John B.


  #27  
Old March 7th 19, 02:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,028
Default Designers vs. engineers

On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 16:12:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

But then, the rest of the exhibition seems to glorify the 1950s and
1960s as an era of "good design." Weird.


Such museum exhibits are concept bicycles that were actually built.
Most never make it off the drawing board (or computah screen).
https://www.google.com/search?q=concept+bicycles&tbm=isch
Among the few that can actually be built, even fewer are actually
rideable by humans. So, why do designers continue to product
impractical artistic bicycle creations? Because, like concept
automobiles, nobody is going to manufacture the entire concept bicycle
in its original form. However, they will borrow or steal parts,
pieces, and ideas that might be useful.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #28  
Old March 7th 19, 02:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
David Scheidt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,310
Default Designers vs. engineers

John B. Slocomb wrote:

:Re log books... But how often does one make modifications to a house.
:Certainly it can be done but in reality it very seldom happens. I
:don't know how many times we have had friends say something like,
:"gee, I wish the whatsit was in the other room" and when I say, "then
:move it" they say, "Oh, but that is a big job".

My house is 100 years old. It has had the kitchen renovated at least
twice. the bathroom a few times. It had natural gas service
installed. And then redone, when the gas company made the owners move
the mter outside. Since I've owned it (not long), I have had all the wiring
replaced. I have moved the gas line for the stove. I have replaced a
number of water pipes. I've removed a radiator from a bedroom,
replacing it with a different style one in a different location. I've
installed radiators in the basement. We will be removing and
replacing the basement floor, with work done to the under ground
piping. I am likely to replace the boiler with a different style one,
and replace all the giant wrought iron piping for heating with copper.
And we'll doubtless redo the kitchen and upstairs bathroom.

Stuff I've done is documented. Stuff previous owners did, no so much.

--
sig 75
  #29  
Old March 7th 19, 03:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,283
Default Designers vs. engineers

On 3/6/2019 8:38 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

Re log books... But how often does one make modifications to a house.
Certainly it can be done but in reality it very seldom happens.


Well, we've been in this house well over 30 years, so I've done a lot. I
tend to document stuff, so for some of it (like the finished room in the
basement) I have my drawings and notes.

But over the years there have been times I wished I had more
information. I can remember wondering about brands and colors of paint I
used, about which breaker controlled which circuit, which damper in
which air duct controlled the heat or AC to which room, etc.

Regarding documentation: At my first engineering job, we were putting
some new restrooms into a new medical clinic in the plant. There was a
sewer line about 20 feet away, we were told, but somehow there were no
drawings showing the existing sewer lines. We dug up a lot of concrete
looking for that one.

The really weird part was, one guy claimed he could find it by dowsing,
using two welding rods. He walked forward with the L-shaped rods
pointing straight ahead, and at a certain spot the rods swung outward.
"It's here" he said. I grabbed the rods and darned if they didn't do
exactly the same for me.

We dug extra deep there, but still no sewer line. Then someone notice
there were water pipes running exactly overhead of where the rods swung
out. I have no explanation for that.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #30  
Old March 7th 19, 03:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,283
Default Designers vs. engineers

On 3/6/2019 9:11 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 16:12:10 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

But then, the rest of the exhibition seems to glorify the 1950s and
1960s as an era of "good design." Weird.


Such museum exhibits are concept bicycles that were actually built.
Most never make it off the drawing board (or computah screen).
https://www.google.com/search?q=concept+bicycles&tbm=isch
Among the few that can actually be built, even fewer are actually
rideable by humans. So, why do designers continue to product
impractical artistic bicycle creations? Because, like concept
automobiles, nobody is going to manufacture the entire concept bicycle
in its original form. However, they will borrow or steal parts,
pieces, and ideas that might be useful.


When I was a teenager, I had a friend who was a) very much into hot
rods, and b) quite a good cartoonist. He was always drawing totally
impractical but "cool" looking cartoon cars.

I figure a lot of the concept bicycles are part of the same genre. They
look cool. Nobody wants anything more from them.

More generally: Whenever I see some physical object that seems to make
no practical sense, I assume it must qualify as art. Most of the time I
seem to be right.

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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