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#21
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white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?
On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 21:15:31 +0200, Tosspot
wrote: On 01/07/16 14:13, AMuzi wrote: On 7/1/2016 12:22 AM, Tosspot wrote: On 01/07/16 03:18, John B. wrote: On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 13:08:18 +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote: Frank Krygowski writes: Is there any chance he's talking about some sort of rim tape or rim strip? The rim tape doesn't seem to be affected. As I understood it from AMuzi and John B., the nipples are brass, the rim is aluminum, add water with in particular salt to form an electrolyte, this turns the whole thing into a *battery* (!) with galvanic corrosion where the aluminum looses energy and turns into something else (?) - the white stuff. Question 1: Right? Answer: Probably Question 2: Why are the nipples brass? Is that cheaper and/or more formable than aluminum? Answer: A: Brass has a higher sheer modulus ( stronger threads) than aluminum B: It has worked perfectly well for a hundred tears or more. except in rare cases. I do have the same 'problem' on my commuter. Most likely due to salt in the winter. But, well, it is the slut bike, so who cares? Slut's an excellent moniker for my filthy winter bike, thanks for that. Now the Princess on the other hand, dry miles (of course) only, not a smidgen of dirt of the drive train, I shudder to think of a missed service, and of course, closeted in my bed every winter night. I believe that a true aficionado would keep the bikes in the "front room" where everyone could admire them :-) -- cheers, John B. |
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#22
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white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?
AMuzi writes:
1. Maybe galvanic corrosion with the nipple, maybe with a steel rim insert. But corrosion nonetheless. If it is "galvanic corrosion", is the corrosion in or due to the zinc coating? Because if it is, that is ironic as it is put there to protect from rust! 2. Well, the wheelbuilder's reasons may include strength, cost or 'because we have brass nipples'. As with #1 above, here we are, it's corroded for whatever reason. Your problem is more whether to ignore it, clean it or replace it I think. OK, so I know LISP is from the 50s, UNIX from the 60s-70s, C++ the 80s, and Linux the 90s! Does that make me a better programmer? If I look at a piece of code, I can't say a single line was improved by that knowledge. But knowing it, I feel more appreciative of what I'm doing, more confident and relaxed - it is more pleasant to do... It is, or could be, the same with rims. If I true 10 rims, and can tell a story about 9, it won't feel like truing 10, it'll feel like truing 2 - one plain, and one while listening to a story! Also, this kind of "facts for fans" are often useful when you don't expect them to be. Did you ever notice, when you learn something new, the next day or something you hear to guys on the street talk about it! Why didn't you hear it all your life? Probably you did but because it didn't make sense there was no socket in your brain where it could land... Now it does and it feels good As for the actual rim, I think I cleaned that and put it somewhere when I wrote the original post! This interesting excursion aside (or forked), is there any tricks to cleaning it with conventional tools? I got most of it away with a wire brush but I heard that would damage the aluminum and/or (?) the coating! Getting chemicals isn't anything I consider at the moment because it is just normal rim, of which I have countless, and this is the first time I saw it - unless the chemicals are inexpensive in which case I'll get them if I see them... -- underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic - so far: 55 Blogomatic articles - |
#23
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white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?
On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 1:59:43 AM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
AMuzi writes: 1. Maybe galvanic corrosion with the nipple, maybe with a steel rim insert. But corrosion nonetheless. If it is "galvanic corrosion", is the corrosion in or due to the zinc coating? Because if it is, that is ironic as it is put there to protect from rust! 2. Well, the wheelbuilder's reasons may include strength, cost or 'because we have brass nipples'. As with #1 above, here we are, it's corroded for whatever reason. Your problem is more whether to ignore it, clean it or replace it I think. OK, so I know LISP is from the 50s, UNIX from the 60s-70s, C++ the 80s, and Linux the 90s! Does that make me a better programmer? If I look at a piece of code, I can't say a single line was improved by that knowledge. But knowing it, I feel more appreciative of what I'm doing, more confident and relaxed - it is more pleasant to do... It is, or could be, the same with rims. If I true 10 rims, and can tell a story about 9, it won't feel like truing 10, it'll feel like truing 2 - one plain, and one while listening to a story! Also, this kind of "facts for fans" are often useful when you don't expect them to be. Did you ever notice, when you learn something new, the next day or something you hear to guys on the street talk about it! Why didn't you hear it all your life? Probably you did but because it didn't make sense there was no socket in your brain where it could land... Now it does and it feels good As for the actual rim, I think I cleaned that and put it somewhere when I wrote the original post! This interesting excursion aside (or forked), is there any tricks to cleaning it with conventional tools? I got most of it away with a wire brush but I heard that would damage the aluminum and/or (?) the coating! Getting chemicals isn't anything I consider at the moment because it is just normal rim, of which I have countless, and this is the first time I saw it - unless the chemicals are inexpensive in which case I'll get them if I see them... -- underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic - so far: 55 Blogomatic articles - Why not just post an image of it and then link to the image here so we can see EXACTLY what you're trying to deal with? That'd make things a heck of a lot simpler plus remove the guesswork. Cheers |
#24
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white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?
Sir Ridesalot
writes: Why not just post an image of it and then link to the image here so we can see EXACTLY what you're trying to deal with? That'd make things a heck of a lot simpler plus remove the guesswork. I already removed it. What remains is a small white/gray ring just around the nipples, and the reason it is there still is the nipples protect them from the reach of brushes, steel wool etc. I'm pretty sure it is what has been suggested, so I can rephrase the question into "how do you remove corrosion without damaging anything, preferable without using specific chemicals but everyday equipment?" -- underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic - so far: 56 Blogomatic articles - |
#25
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white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?
On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 07:59:40 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote: AMuzi writes: 1. Maybe galvanic corrosion with the nipple, maybe with a steel rim insert. But corrosion nonetheless. If it is "galvanic corrosion", is the corrosion in or due to the zinc coating? Because if it is, that is ironic as it is put there to protect from rust! Have a look at http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Def...nic-series.htm which gives you an inkling of what is the cause. The further apart two metals are on the chart the greater the potential for corrosion. But remember, there must be an electrolyte for the metals to corrode. But I suggest the real question may be, how long have these things been in use"? Something that had been in use for, say 10 years, and has slight evidence of corrosion will likely last another ten years, 2. Well, the wheelbuilder's reasons may include strength, cost or 'because we have brass nipples'. As with #1 above, here we are, it's corroded for whatever reason. Your problem is more whether to ignore it, clean it or replace it I think. OK, so I know LISP is from the 50s, UNIX from the 60s-70s, C++ the 80s, and Linux the 90s! Does that make me a better programmer? If I look at a piece of code, I can't say a single line was improved by that knowledge. But knowing it, I feel more appreciative of what I'm doing, more confident and relaxed - it is more pleasant to do... It is, or could be, the same with rims. If I true 10 rims, and can tell a story about 9, it won't feel like truing 10, it'll feel like truing 2 - one plain, and one while listening to a story! Also, this kind of "facts for fans" are often useful when you don't expect them to be. Did you ever notice, when you learn something new, the next day or something you hear to guys on the street talk about it! Why didn't you hear it all your life? Probably you did but because it didn't make sense there was no socket in your brain where it could land... Now it does and it feels good As for the actual rim, I think I cleaned that and put it somewhere when I wrote the original post! This interesting excursion aside (or forked), is there any tricks to cleaning it with conventional tools? I got most of it away with a wire brush but I heard that would damage the aluminum and/or (?) the coating! Getting chemicals isn't anything I consider at the moment because it is just normal rim, of which I have countless, and this is the first time I saw it - unless the chemicals are inexpensive in which case I'll get them if I see them... You might try vinegar? Or even coca-cola :-) I believe that they have both been used to remove corrosion. -- cheers, John B. |
#26
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white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?
On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 19:33:06 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote: "how do you remove corrosion without damaging anything, preferable without using specific chemicals but everyday equipment?" You can't. Once the base metal has been corroded (oxidized), the metal is converted into a salt (ionic compound created by mixing an acid and a base), which is the white stuff you're dealing with. The damage has already been done when the base metal was lost. Cleaning off the salts (the white stuff) does not restore the metal to its former condition. It only removes the salts (the white stuff). I can't offer any specifics until you provide some detail as to what was corroded. Was it the aluminum rim, steel washer, brass spoke nipple, chrome plating, or stainless steel spoke? -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#27
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white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?
John B. writes:
But I suggest the real question may be, how long have these things been in use"? How do I find out? Carbon-14? No, when I see the rim again, I'll examine it closer for some brand or other clue... Does corrosion typically take a long time to happen? With batteries the salt seems to be around pretty frequently... -- underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic - so far: 56 Blogomatic articles - |
#28
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white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?
Jeff Liebermann writes:
You can't. Once the base metal has been corroded (oxidized), the metal is converted into a salt (ionic compound created by mixing an acid and a base), which is the white stuff you're dealing with. The damage has already been done when the base metal was lost. Cleaning off the salts (the white stuff) does not restore the metal to its former condition. It only removes the salts (the white stuff). OK! Salty water, should be pretty easy to remove! But it wasn't, it was more difficult to remove than rust! Perhaps got intermingled with the aluminum and/or coating? I can't offer any specifics until you provide some detail as to what was corroded. Was it the aluminum rim, steel washer, brass spoke nipple, chrome plating, or stainless steel spoke? This is something I've thought about a lot, how do you determine what is what? I know only about the non-magnetism test for stainless steel. (I know the yellowish gold color of brass, of course.) And yes, the spokes have washers! Not common, but yes, now that you say it, those I've seen have all had this problem! So perhaps the nipples are not the problem, but the washers (in combination with the nipples and/or rim)! On what materials should you, and should you not, use the hair, nylon, brass, and steel brushes, sand paper and emery, steel wool and Svinto? I never gave this much thought or actually I did give it some thought and that thought was I didn't know the answer -- underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic - so far: 56 Blogomatic articles - |
#29
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white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?
On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 16:38:40 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote: Jeff Liebermann writes: You can't. Once the base metal has been corroded (oxidized), the metal is converted into a salt (ionic compound created by mixing an acid and a base), which is the white stuff you're dealing with. The damage has already been done when the base metal was lost. Cleaning off the salts (the white stuff) does not restore the metal to its former condition. It only removes the salts (the white stuff). OK! Salty water, No, not salty water. I was very careful to *NOT* mention table salt (sodium chloride) so that you would not confuse that with a chemical salt (ionic compound created by mixing an acid and a base). should be pretty easy to remove! But it wasn't, it was more difficult to remove than rust! Perhaps got intermingled with the aluminum and/or coating? The underlying metal probably looks like Swiss Cheeze (full of holes). If the reaction products are mixed into the holes, they will be difficult to remove by mechanical means. That leaves chemical means, which requires knowing what has corroded. Hint: Twang you spokes like a harp and listen for the tone. If you find one that produces a dull thud and is obviously loose, look for metal loss (though corrosion) around the spoke hole. This might prevent having the spoke rip out of the rim when you put a load on it. I never gave this much thought or actually I did give it some thought and that thought was I didn't know the answer The quality of the answers you receive are directly related to the quality of the information you provide. I've seen no accurate description of what is corroded or any maker or model numbers. Since you've also avoided answering my questions, I give up. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#30
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white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?
On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 16:28:52 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote: John B. writes: But I suggest the real question may be, how long have these things been in use"? How do I find out? Carbon-14? Why, I assume "just look at it" :-) Or, more seriously, identify the components and ask Andrew Muzi who can probably tell you the period in which the components were used in bicycle manufactured. No, when I see the rim again, I'll examine it closer for some brand or other clue... Does corrosion typically take a long time to happen? With batteries the salt seems to be around pretty frequently... Think of the battery terminal as a worst case (although it may not be) but un insulated aluminum to stainless joinings do, in the presence of salt water, usually show corrosion in a matter of months. The speed seems to be related by the distance the between the metals on as listed on a "galvanic chart". From: http://www.engineersedge.com/galvanic_capatability.htm "For harsh environments, such as outdoors, high humidity, and salt environments fall into this category. Typically there should be not more than 0.15 V difference in the "Anodic Index". For example; gold silver would have a difference of 0.15V being acceptable. For normal environments, such as storage in warehouses or non-temperature and humidity controlled environments. Typically there should not be more than 0.25 V difference in the "Anodic Index"." Aluminum - ~0.60, Aluminum - ~0.90 But note that for galvanic corrosion to occur there must be an electrical conducting path between the two. Pure, distilled, water is essentially an insulator while water with impurities (such as salt) are a conductor. -- cheers, John B. |
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