A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old July 2nd 16, 02:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,202
Default white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?

On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 21:15:31 +0200, Tosspot
wrote:

On 01/07/16 14:13, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/1/2016 12:22 AM, Tosspot wrote:
On 01/07/16 03:18, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jun 2016 13:08:18 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Frank Krygowski
writes:

Is there any chance he's talking about some
sort of rim tape or rim strip?

The rim tape doesn't seem to be affected.

As I understood it from AMuzi and John B., the
nipples are brass, the rim is aluminum, add
water with in particular salt to form an
electrolyte, this turns the whole thing into
a *battery* (!) with galvanic corrosion where
the aluminum looses energy and turns into
something else (?) - the white stuff.

Question 1: Right?
Answer: Probably


Question 2: Why are the nipples brass? Is that
cheaper and/or more formable than aluminum?

Answer: A: Brass has a higher sheer modulus ( stronger
threads) than
aluminum
B: It has worked perfectly well for a hundred tears or
more.
except in rare cases.

I do have the same 'problem' on my commuter. Most likely
due to salt in the winter. But, well, it is the slut bike,
so who cares?


Slut's an excellent moniker for my filthy winter bike, thanks for that.


Now the Princess on the other hand, dry miles (of course) only, not a
smidgen of dirt of the drive train, I shudder to think of a missed
service, and of course, closeted in my bed every winter night.


I believe that a true aficionado would keep the bikes in the "front
room" where everyone could admire them :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

Ads
  #22  
Old July 2nd 16, 06:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?

AMuzi writes:

1. Maybe galvanic corrosion with the nipple,
maybe with a steel rim insert.
But corrosion nonetheless.


If it is "galvanic corrosion", is the corrosion
in or due to the zinc coating? Because if it
is, that is ironic as it is put there to
protect from rust!

2. Well, the wheelbuilder's reasons may
include strength, cost or 'because we have
brass nipples'. As with #1 above, here we
are, it's corroded for whatever reason.
Your problem is more whether to ignore it,
clean it or replace it I think.


OK, so I know LISP is from the 50s, UNIX from
the 60s-70s, C++ the 80s, and Linux the 90s!
Does that make me a better programmer?
If I look at a piece of code, I can't say
a single line was improved by that knowledge.
But knowing it, I feel more appreciative of
what I'm doing, more confident and relaxed - it
is more pleasant to do...

It is, or could be, the same with rims.
If I true 10 rims, and can tell a story about
9, it won't feel like truing 10, it'll feel
like truing 2 - one plain, and one while
listening to a story!

Also, this kind of "facts for fans" are often
useful when you don't expect them to be.
Did you ever notice, when you learn something
new, the next day or something you hear to guys
on the street talk about it! Why didn't you
hear it all your life? Probably you did but
because it didn't make sense there was no
socket in your brain where it could land... Now
it does and it feels good

As for the actual rim, I think I cleaned that
and put it somewhere when I wrote the
original post!

This interesting excursion aside (or forked),
is there any tricks to cleaning it with
conventional tools? I got most of it away with
a wire brush but I heard that would damage the
aluminum and/or (?) the coating!
Getting chemicals isn't anything I consider at
the moment because it is just normal rim, of
which I have countless, and this is the first
time I saw it - unless the chemicals are
inexpensive in which case I'll get them if
I see them...

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 55 Blogomatic articles -
  #23  
Old July 2nd 16, 07:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,270
Default white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?

On Saturday, July 2, 2016 at 1:59:43 AM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
AMuzi writes:

1. Maybe galvanic corrosion with the nipple,
maybe with a steel rim insert.
But corrosion nonetheless.


If it is "galvanic corrosion", is the corrosion
in or due to the zinc coating? Because if it
is, that is ironic as it is put there to
protect from rust!

2. Well, the wheelbuilder's reasons may
include strength, cost or 'because we have
brass nipples'. As with #1 above, here we
are, it's corroded for whatever reason.
Your problem is more whether to ignore it,
clean it or replace it I think.


OK, so I know LISP is from the 50s, UNIX from
the 60s-70s, C++ the 80s, and Linux the 90s!
Does that make me a better programmer?
If I look at a piece of code, I can't say
a single line was improved by that knowledge.
But knowing it, I feel more appreciative of
what I'm doing, more confident and relaxed - it
is more pleasant to do...

It is, or could be, the same with rims.
If I true 10 rims, and can tell a story about
9, it won't feel like truing 10, it'll feel
like truing 2 - one plain, and one while
listening to a story!

Also, this kind of "facts for fans" are often
useful when you don't expect them to be.
Did you ever notice, when you learn something
new, the next day or something you hear to guys
on the street talk about it! Why didn't you
hear it all your life? Probably you did but
because it didn't make sense there was no
socket in your brain where it could land... Now
it does and it feels good

As for the actual rim, I think I cleaned that
and put it somewhere when I wrote the
original post!

This interesting excursion aside (or forked),
is there any tricks to cleaning it with
conventional tools? I got most of it away with
a wire brush but I heard that would damage the
aluminum and/or (?) the coating!
Getting chemicals isn't anything I consider at
the moment because it is just normal rim, of
which I have countless, and this is the first
time I saw it - unless the chemicals are
inexpensive in which case I'll get them if
I see them...

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 55 Blogomatic articles -


Why not just post an image of it and then link to the image here so we can see EXACTLY what you're trying to deal with? That'd make things a heck of a lot simpler plus remove the guesswork.

Cheers
  #24  
Old July 2nd 16, 06:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?

Sir Ridesalot
writes:

Why not just post an image of it and then
link to the image here so we can see EXACTLY
what you're trying to deal with? That'd make
things a heck of a lot simpler plus remove
the guesswork.


I already removed it. What remains is a small
white/gray ring just around the nipples, and
the reason it is there still is the nipples
protect them from the reach of brushes, steel
wool etc. I'm pretty sure it is what has been
suggested, so I can rephrase the question into
"how do you remove corrosion without damaging
anything, preferable without using specific
chemicals but everyday equipment?"

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 56 Blogomatic articles -
  #25  
Old July 3rd 16, 03:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,202
Default white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?

On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 07:59:40 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

AMuzi writes:

1. Maybe galvanic corrosion with the nipple,
maybe with a steel rim insert.
But corrosion nonetheless.


If it is "galvanic corrosion", is the corrosion
in or due to the zinc coating? Because if it
is, that is ironic as it is put there to
protect from rust!


Have a look at
http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Def...nic-series.htm
which gives you an inkling of what is the cause.

The further apart two metals are on the chart the greater the
potential for corrosion. But remember, there must be an electrolyte
for the metals to corrode.

But I suggest the real question may be, how long have these things
been in use"? Something that had been in use for, say 10 years, and
has slight evidence of corrosion will likely last another ten years,

2. Well, the wheelbuilder's reasons may
include strength, cost or 'because we have
brass nipples'. As with #1 above, here we
are, it's corroded for whatever reason.
Your problem is more whether to ignore it,
clean it or replace it I think.


OK, so I know LISP is from the 50s, UNIX from
the 60s-70s, C++ the 80s, and Linux the 90s!
Does that make me a better programmer?
If I look at a piece of code, I can't say
a single line was improved by that knowledge.
But knowing it, I feel more appreciative of
what I'm doing, more confident and relaxed - it
is more pleasant to do...

It is, or could be, the same with rims.
If I true 10 rims, and can tell a story about
9, it won't feel like truing 10, it'll feel
like truing 2 - one plain, and one while
listening to a story!

Also, this kind of "facts for fans" are often
useful when you don't expect them to be.
Did you ever notice, when you learn something
new, the next day or something you hear to guys
on the street talk about it! Why didn't you
hear it all your life? Probably you did but
because it didn't make sense there was no
socket in your brain where it could land... Now
it does and it feels good

As for the actual rim, I think I cleaned that
and put it somewhere when I wrote the
original post!

This interesting excursion aside (or forked),
is there any tricks to cleaning it with
conventional tools? I got most of it away with
a wire brush but I heard that would damage the
aluminum and/or (?) the coating!
Getting chemicals isn't anything I consider at
the moment because it is just normal rim, of
which I have countless, and this is the first
time I saw it - unless the chemicals are
inexpensive in which case I'll get them if
I see them...


You might try vinegar? Or even coca-cola :-) I believe that they have
both been used to remove corrosion.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #26  
Old July 3rd 16, 04:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?

On Sat, 02 Jul 2016 19:33:06 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

"how do you remove corrosion without damaging
anything, preferable without using specific
chemicals but everyday equipment?"


You can't. Once the base metal has been corroded (oxidized), the
metal is converted into a salt (ionic compound created by mixing an
acid and a base), which is the white stuff you're dealing with. The
damage has already been done when the base metal was lost. Cleaning
off the salts (the white stuff) does not restore the metal to its
former condition. It only removes the salts (the white stuff).

I can't offer any specifics until you provide some detail as to what
was corroded. Was it the aluminum rim, steel washer, brass spoke
nipple, chrome plating, or stainless steel spoke?

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #27  
Old July 3rd 16, 03:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?

John B. writes:

But I suggest the real question may be, how
long have these things been in use"?


How do I find out? Carbon-14?

No, when I see the rim again, I'll examine it
closer for some brand or other clue...

Does corrosion typically take a long time to
happen? With batteries the salt seems to be
around pretty frequently...

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 56 Blogomatic articles -
  #28  
Old July 3rd 16, 03:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?

Jeff Liebermann writes:

You can't. Once the base metal has been
corroded (oxidized), the metal is converted
into a salt (ionic compound created by mixing
an acid and a base), which is the white stuff
you're dealing with. The damage has already
been done when the base metal was lost.
Cleaning off the salts (the white stuff) does
not restore the metal to its former
condition. It only removes the salts (the
white stuff).


OK! Salty water, should be pretty easy to
remove! But it wasn't, it was more difficult to
remove than rust! Perhaps got intermingled with
the aluminum and/or coating?

I can't offer any specifics until you provide
some detail as to what was corroded. Was it
the aluminum rim, steel washer, brass spoke
nipple, chrome plating, or stainless
steel spoke?


This is something I've thought about a lot, how
do you determine what is what? I know only
about the non-magnetism test for stainless
steel. (I know the yellowish gold color of
brass, of course.)

And yes, the spokes have washers! Not common,
but yes, now that you say it, those I've seen
have all had this problem! So perhaps the
nipples are not the problem, but the washers
(in combination with the nipples and/or rim)!

On what materials should you, and should you
not, use the hair, nylon, brass, and steel
brushes, sand paper and emery, steel wool
and Svinto?

I never gave this much thought or actually
I did give it some thought and that thought was
I didn't know the answer

--
underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic
- so far: 56 Blogomatic articles -
  #29  
Old July 3rd 16, 05:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 16:38:40 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann writes:

You can't. Once the base metal has been
corroded (oxidized), the metal is converted
into a salt (ionic compound created by mixing
an acid and a base), which is the white stuff
you're dealing with. The damage has already
been done when the base metal was lost.
Cleaning off the salts (the white stuff) does
not restore the metal to its former
condition. It only removes the salts (the
white stuff).


OK! Salty water,


No, not salty water. I was very careful to *NOT* mention table salt
(sodium chloride) so that you would not confuse that with a chemical
salt (ionic compound created by mixing an acid and a base).

should be pretty easy to
remove! But it wasn't, it was more difficult to
remove than rust! Perhaps got intermingled with
the aluminum and/or coating?


The underlying metal probably looks like Swiss Cheeze (full of holes).
If the reaction products are mixed into the holes, they will be
difficult to remove by mechanical means. That leaves chemical means,
which requires knowing what has corroded.

Hint: Twang you spokes like a harp and listen for the tone. If you
find one that produces a dull thud and is obviously loose, look for
metal loss (though corrosion) around the spoke hole. This might
prevent having the spoke rip out of the rim when you put a load on it.

I never gave this much thought or actually
I did give it some thought and that thought was
I didn't know the answer


The quality of the answers you receive are directly related to the
quality of the information you provide. I've seen no accurate
description of what is corroded or any maker or model numbers. Since
you've also avoided answering my questions, I give up.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #30  
Old July 4th 16, 03:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,202
Default white thing on rim around spoke holes/nipples?

On Sun, 03 Jul 2016 16:28:52 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

John B. writes:

But I suggest the real question may be, how
long have these things been in use"?


How do I find out? Carbon-14?


Why, I assume "just look at it" :-)
Or, more seriously, identify the components and ask Andrew Muzi who
can probably tell you the period in which the components were used in
bicycle manufactured.


No, when I see the rim again, I'll examine it
closer for some brand or other clue...

Does corrosion typically take a long time to
happen? With batteries the salt seems to be
around pretty frequently...


Think of the battery terminal as a worst case (although it may not be)
but un insulated aluminum to stainless joinings do, in the presence of
salt water, usually show corrosion in a matter of months.

The speed seems to be related by the distance the between the metals
on as listed on a "galvanic chart".

From: http://www.engineersedge.com/galvanic_capatability.htm

"For harsh environments, such as outdoors, high humidity, and salt
environments fall into this category. Typically there should be not
more than 0.15 V difference in the "Anodic Index". For example; gold
silver would have a difference of 0.15V being acceptable.

For normal environments, such as storage in warehouses or
non-temperature and humidity controlled environments. Typically there
should not be more than 0.25 V difference in the "Anodic Index"."

Aluminum - ~0.60, Aluminum - ~0.90

But note that for galvanic corrosion to occur there must be an
electrical conducting path between the two. Pure, distilled, water is
essentially an insulator while water with impurities (such as salt)
are a conductor.
--
cheers,

John B.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
spoke nipples Me UK 4 July 30th 08 11:00 PM
spoke holes [email protected] Techniques 2 June 24th 08 05:05 AM
Spoke nipples and spoke spanners Owen Techniques 2 July 11th 07 06:24 AM
spoke nipples natiag Unicycling 6 September 17th 06 09:08 PM
What happens to brass spoke nipples during stainless-steel spoke-squeezing? [email protected] Techniques 7 May 25th 05 05:01 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.