Countersteering?

A quick question if I may for those faster than I...

Over the winter I have been quietly getting ready for Crystal Palace
2007. As well as my usual investment on hours of data analysis, and
many pounds of supposedly speed-inducing, power-improving gear - this
off-season I've actually spent time on longer rides and improving some
riding techniques.

My challenge this month is mastering countersteering. I watched the
Cat1/2's at the Palace hairpin last year, and they appeared to be much,
much faster through the apex. Careful guesswork leads me to suspect
they are countersteering through the hairpin.

The technique is well documented (including videos) here -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Is my guess correct? How many riders use this method?

R.

Your question is not well-defined, since there is always
countersteering when turning at
speeds greater than 10 kph.

In the past, I have interpreted the term "countersteering technique" to
imply that
you consciously turn the handlebars in the opposite direction when
initiating a turn, as opposed to
using a body weight position change to initiate a turn, which induces
the bars to countersteer. In the latter
case, it appears that pressure on the bars is not used to steer the
bike, but
rather to dampen variation in bar angle. In other words, the latter
type of steering
could be equally accomplished by using body weight position alone,
riding no hands, and
putting a steering damper (shock absorber) on the handlebars), or
simply riding no
hands.. It appears that
body weight steering is slower than countersteering by turning the
handlebars,
since a weight position change will be slower than an input on
handlebar position.At
least this would seem to be the case for motorcycles where a greater
body weight
change of position is required. The fastest steering would be
accomplished by a
combination of handlebar pressure and body position change, which seems
to be
consistent with motorcycle racing practice.

In bicycling, the countersteering action of the handlebars is not as
noticeable. One
case where it becomes evident is if you want to turn in one direction
but there is
no room for the wheel to countersteer in the other, e.g., if you are
overlapping
wheels closely, or if you are at the edge of a curb. In that case, you
will
have to come in contact with the obstacle in order to effect your turn.


-ilan


richard wrote:
A quick question if I may for those faster than I...

Over the winter I have been quietly getting ready for Crystal Palace
2007. As well as my usual investment on hours of data analysis, and
many pounds of supposedly speed-inducing, power-improving gear - this
off-season I've actually spent time on longer rides and improving some
riding techniques.

My challenge this month is mastering countersteering. I watched the
Cat1/2's at the Palace hairpin last year, and they appeared to be much,
much faster through the apex. Careful guesswork leads me to suspect
they are countersteering through the hairpin.

The technique is well documented (including videos) here -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Is my guess correct? How many riders use this method?

R.

richard wrote:
A quick question if I may for those faster than I...

Over the winter I have been quietly getting ready for Crystal Palace
2007. As well as my usual investment on hours of data analysis, and
many pounds of supposedly speed-inducing, power-improving gear - this
off-season I've actually spent time on longer rides and improving some
riding techniques.

My challenge this month is mastering countersteering. I watched the
Cat1/2's at the Palace hairpin last year, and they appeared to be much,
much faster through the apex. Careful guesswork leads me to suspect
they are countersteering through the hairpin.

The technique is well documented (including videos) here -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Is my guess correct? How many riders use this method?

R.

Like, what the Hell is the Crystal Palace 2007? A quick Google and my
guess is a trathlon. I'm no trathlon expert, but I'd wager cornering
isn't where one wins or loses one.

My guess is the turn you are referring to is a 180 degree turn on a
somewhat wide boulevard or simialr street. In pack racing, there is
traffic to consider that should not be such a problem in a triathlon.
There you can set up as wide as you want, clip the apex and accelerate
as you wish. I wouldn't think any special techniques would be needed.
When you saw fast guys taking the corner, they were just that: fast
guys.

Conscious countersteering for me only happens when I am trying to avoid
an obstacle like a pothole. A quick jerk on the bars zooms the bike out
from under me, gravity makes me fall toward the ground, a quick
adjustment of the bars and I find myself in a nice steeply leaning turn
much sooner that had I set up normally. I don't know that I'd try that
to get around a turn faster. Usually to get around a turn faster, all
you have to do is lean more. Easier said than done, but usually people
corner with a very large reserve of grip.

Have fun!

Joseph

richard wrote:

A quick question if I may for those faster than I...

Over the winter I have been quietly getting ready for Crystal Palace
2007. As well as my usual investment on hours of data analysis, and
many pounds of supposedly speed-inducing, power-improving gear - this
off-season I've actually spent time on longer rides and improving some
riding techniques.


What the heck does "I've spent more time on longer rides and improving
some riding technque" mean? It can mean anything from you are now
riding 5 miles a day and are just removing your training wheels to I'm
riding 500 miles a week and doing fixed gear workouts in Manhattan
traffic. The fact that you describe your traning in these subjective
terms and are asking for advice on steering tells me you probably mean
the former.



My challenge this month is mastering countersteering.

How have you been training on a bike at all if you haven't been
countersteering for all these years/months? Countersteering is an
inherent physics reaction that occurs in all turning except those from
most done by most triathletes.


I watched the
Cat1/2's at the Palace hairpin last year, and they appeared to be much,
much faster through the apex. Careful guesswork leads me to suspect
they are countersteering through the hairpin.

Dude, you make it sound like they're using a secret steering technique.
The probelsm is you don't know how to ride your bike. Learn.


The technique is well documented (including videos) here -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Is my guess correct? How many riders use this method?

R.

All riders use it, including you. You just probably try to fight it by
steering your handlebars because you have no natural feel for riding
your bike.

You need to learn how to ride a bike before you race. You sound like a
schizo spaz who rides in group rides with tri bars and wrecks on 20% of
training rides you do by yourself.

Your question is like a high school dropout bum who walks into Harvard
Admissions Office and asks, "How do I apply to get accepted here."

Thanks,

Magilla

wrote:

Conscious countersteering for me only happens when I am trying to avoid
an obstacle like a pothole.

Whether it's conscious or not to a skilled cornerer isn't relevant.
Pedal technique to someone with a smooth pedal stroke isn't conscious,
either, although it can take concious practice to get to that level.

Ilan's comments are good, here. Countersteering is needed to get
through corners quickly, so it's worth thinking about if you (like me)
aren't super-confident.

Bike fit is also critical. If you don't have a good position on the
bike, you can't corner well. Make sure your position is checked by
someone who knows their stuff, or check it using a good reference.

Dan

Crystal Palace 2007 is a weekly summer criterium series run in London,
UK (pics live here -
http://www.londoncyclesport.com/news...4&v=2&UAN=714).

It's one of those tough hilly, twisty types of circuit with a couple of
hairpins , and attracts a reasonable pro/semi-pro and amateur field of
around 100 riders.

Thanks for the reply.

R.


wrote:

Like, what the Hell is the Crystal Palace 2007? A quick Google and my
guess is a trathlon. I'm no trathlon expert, but I'd wager cornering
isn't where one wins or loses one.

My guess is the turn you are referring to is a 180 degree turn on a
somewhat wide boulevard or simialr street. In pack racing, there is
traffic to consider that should not be such a problem in a triathlon.
There you can set up as wide as you want, clip the apex and accelerate
as you wish. I wouldn't think any special techniques would be needed.
When you saw fast guys taking the corner, they were just that: fast
guys.

Conscious countersteering for me only happens when I am trying to avoid
an obstacle like a pothole. A quick jerk on the bars zooms the bike out
from under me, gravity makes me fall toward the ground, a quick
adjustment of the bars and I find myself in a nice steeply leaning turn
much sooner that had I set up normally. I don't know that I'd try that
to get around a turn faster. Usually to get around a turn faster, all
you have to do is lean more. Easier said than done, but usually people
corner with a very large reserve of grip.

Have fun!

Joseph

MagillaGorilla wrote:

You need to learn how to ride a bike before you race.

That is false. For example, in women's racing, there have been quite a
few novice riders who have done quite well in their first year and
whose bike handling skills were mediocre. For example, I would like to
do a survey of the top 100 women racers in the US to find out how many
of them can ride no hands.

Your question is like a high school dropout bum who walks into Harvard
Admissions Office and asks, "How do I apply to get accepted here."

I know for a fact that a graduate student in mathematics at Harvard did
not know how
to tie his shoes. He got his Ph.D. at 20.

-ilan

This person clearly doesn't understand what is going on, he just sent
me personal mail asserting that the Wikipedia article stated that
countersteering is not essential for turning, when in fact the opposite
is true.

I just modified the Wikipedia article consistent with what I wrote in
the other message. As usual, after 2 minutes, someone deleted my
changes and included a disparaging statement (that what I wrote was
nonsense). I'm used to this, I have had my changes deleted in areas
where I actually wrote the book on the subject.

-ilan

richard wrote:
A quick question if I may for those faster than I...

Over the winter I have been quietly getting ready for Crystal Palace
2007. As well as my usual investment on hours of data analysis, and
many pounds of supposedly speed-inducing, power-improving gear - this
off-season I've actually spent time on longer rides and improving some
riding techniques.

My challenge this month is mastering countersteering. I watched the
Cat1/2's at the Palace hairpin last year, and they appeared to be much,
much faster through the apex. Careful guesswork leads me to suspect
they are countersteering through the hairpin.

The technique is well documented (including videos) here -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Is my guess correct? How many riders use this method?

R.

richard wrote:
Crystal Palace 2007 is a weekly summer criterium series run in London,
UK (pics live here -
http://www.londoncyclesport.com/news...4&v=2&UAN=714).

It's one of those tough hilly, twisty types of circuit with a couple of
hairpins , and attracts a reasonable pro/semi-pro and amateur field of
around 100 riders.

Thanks for the reply.

R.

Ok, that's a whole different ball of wax. I'll bet the riders were just
throwing themselves into a steep lean rather quickly. This probably
involved some unconscious countersteering, but that was probably just a
result of them doing it quickly. Yes we all know all urns iinvolve
countersteer, but when I say conscious, or unconscious countersteer, I
mean intentional-yank-the-bars-the-other-way vs just doing a turn.

The only way to get good at cornering is to do it. Lean hard, keep the
weight mostly on the pedal, inboard knee out to get the CG lower. Don't
look where you don't want to go. If you look at the gaurdrail on the
outside of the corner, you'll end up going that way.

Practice in a parking lot, and go by the sound of the tires to see if
you are really hanging it. You should be able to feel the tires
scrubbing.

All that said, it's been years since I've been in a criterium, but I
never went down.

Joseph

PS: You are aware that this ng has a rather special form of discourse,
are you not?

ilan wrote:
MagillaGorilla wrote:

You need to learn how to ride a bike before you race.

That is false. For example, in women's racing, there have been quite a
few novice riders who have done quite well in their first year and
whose bike handling skills were mediocre. For example, I would like to
do a survey of the top 100 women racers in the US to find out how many
of them can ride no hands.

Your question is like a high school dropout bum who walks into Harvard
Admissions Office and asks, "How do I apply to get accepted here."

I know for a fact that a graduate student in mathematics at Harvard did
not know how
to tie his shoes. He got his Ph.D. at 20.


My cycling shoes have velcro. I don't get your point.

Joseph