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Climbing seated on the hoods vs on the tops...??



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 3rd 07, 12:45 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected]
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Posts: 156
Default Climbing seated on the hoods vs on the tops...??

I have noticed that more climber climb seated with their hands on
brake hood vs climbing on the tops of the bars. I am not sure if this
is matter of style vs any actual gain performance. Personally I prefer
the tops since they allow me to relax more when climbing. One possible
advantage is that the body is lower so a little less wind resistance.

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  #3  
Old August 3rd 07, 03:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Scott
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Posts: 1,859
Default Climbing seated on the hoods vs on the tops...??

On Aug 2, 6:51 pm, Dan Connelly
wrote:
wrote:
I have noticed that more climber climb seated with their hands on
brake hood vs climbing on the tops of the bars. I am not sure if this
is matter of style vs any actual gain performance. Personally I prefer
the tops since they allow me to relax more when climbing. One possible
advantage is that the body is lower so a little less wind resistance.


Wind resistance is approximately (speed / 40 kph)^3, assuming you can ride @ 40 kph w/o rolling resistance at the same power on the flats. So if you're climbing @ 16 kph, this corresponds to (2/5)^3 = 8 / 125 = 6.4% of your total power. If being on the hoods saves 5% of this, it's 0.3% of your total power, or 0.8 watts, if you climb at 250 watts.

Obviously, wind resistance is a lesser impact the slower you're going, so on steeper climbs, the tops have a lesser penalty. The Euro-pros tend to climb at a fairly brisk clip, expending a greater fraction of their power on wind resistance than you or I would on the same climb.

Dan


Plus, the Euro pros spend more time training and racing in the drops,
so climbing on the brakehoods may be a more efficient, powerful
position that sitting slightly more upright on the tops. Most of us
don't spend enough time in the drops for the lower position on the
hoods to be that much more efficient than the tops, but the pros do.
I can assure you if they could climb faster on the tops than on the
hoods, they would.

  #4  
Old August 3rd 07, 03:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Steve Freides
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Posts: 91
Default Climbing seated on the hoods vs on the tops...??

"Scott" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 2, 6:51 pm, Dan Connelly
wrote:
wrote:
I have noticed that more climber climb seated with their hands on
brake hood vs climbing on the tops of the bars. I am not sure if
this
is matter of style vs any actual gain performance. Personally I
prefer
the tops since they allow me to relax more when climbing. One
possible
advantage is that the body is lower so a little less wind
resistance.


Wind resistance is approximately (speed / 40 kph)^3, assuming you can
ride @ 40 kph w/o rolling resistance at the same power on the flats.
So if you're climbing @ 16 kph, this corresponds to (2/5)^3 = 8 / 125
= 6.4% of your total power. If being on the hoods saves 5% of this,
it's 0.3% of your total power, or 0.8 watts, if you climb at 250
watts.

Obviously, wind resistance is a lesser impact the slower you're
going, so on steeper climbs, the tops have a lesser penalty. The
Euro-pros tend to climb at a fairly brisk clip, expending a greater
fraction of their power on wind resistance than you or I would on the
same climb.

Dan


Plus, the Euro pros spend more time training and racing in the drops,
so climbing on the brakehoods may be a more efficient, powerful
position that sitting slightly more upright on the tops. Most of us
don't spend enough time in the drops for the lower position on the
hoods to be that much more efficient than the tops, but the pros do.
I can assure you if they could climb faster on the tops than on the
hoods, they would.


I recall reading somewhere that relatively recently (last 10
years-ish?), the pros started riding wider bars because the ability to
breath more easily/better was worth more what they may have lost in the
way of aerodynamics. Might be something to that here as well, i.e., the
tops require a narrower grip than the hoods.

No science claimed, just thinkin' out loud. I'm still riding 40 cm
bars.

-S-


  #5  
Old August 3rd 07, 03:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Tom Kunich
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Posts: 6,456
Default Climbing seated on the hoods vs on the tops...??

"Scott" wrote in message
ups.com...

Plus, the Euro pros spend more time training and racing in the drops,
so climbing on the brakehoods may be a more efficient, powerful
position that sitting slightly more upright on the tops. Most of us
don't spend enough time in the drops for the lower position on the
hoods to be that much more efficient than the tops, but the pros do.
I can assure you if they could climb faster on the tops than on the
hoods, they would.


I can add this - when the pack got really fast and I was near my limit I'd
almost crawl under the paint. After a couple of weeks of those sorts of
races I discovered that my flexibility had changed pretty dramatically and
that I could ride on the drops as efficiently as on the tops.

It wasn't too long after I quite racing that that ability disappeared never
to return.


  #6  
Old August 3rd 07, 05:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Scott
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,859
Default Climbing seated on the hoods vs on the tops...??

On Aug 2, 8:48 pm, "Tom Kunich" [email protected] com wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message

ups.com...



Plus, the Euro pros spend more time training and racing in the drops,
so climbing on the brakehoods may be a more efficient, powerful
position that sitting slightly more upright on the tops. Most of us
don't spend enough time in the drops for the lower position on the
hoods to be that much more efficient than the tops, but the pros do.
I can assure you if they could climb faster on the tops than on the
hoods, they would.




I can add this - when the pack got really fast and I was near my limit I'd
almost crawl under the paint. After a couple of weeks of those sorts of
races I discovered that my flexibility had changed pretty dramatically and
that I could ride on the drops as efficiently as on the tops.

It wasn't too long after I quite racing that that ability disappeared never
to return.


One of the smartest, most successful racers I've ever known/ridden
with/raced against used to ride in the drops ALL the time. I asked
him once why he did that. His response: I don't race on the tops,
why would I train there?

Scott

  #7  
Old August 3rd 07, 04:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
RonSonic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,658
Default Climbing seated on the hoods vs on the tops...??

On Thu, 2 Aug 2007 22:34:55 -0400, "Steve Freides"
wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 2, 6:51 pm, Dan Connelly
wrote:
wrote:
I have noticed that more climber climb seated with their hands on
brake hood vs climbing on the tops of the bars. I am not sure if
this
is matter of style vs any actual gain performance. Personally I
prefer
the tops since they allow me to relax more when climbing. One
possible
advantage is that the body is lower so a little less wind
resistance.

Wind resistance is approximately (speed / 40 kph)^3, assuming you can
ride @ 40 kph w/o rolling resistance at the same power on the flats.
So if you're climbing @ 16 kph, this corresponds to (2/5)^3 = 8 / 125
= 6.4% of your total power. If being on the hoods saves 5% of this,
it's 0.3% of your total power, or 0.8 watts, if you climb at 250
watts.

Obviously, wind resistance is a lesser impact the slower you're
going, so on steeper climbs, the tops have a lesser penalty. The
Euro-pros tend to climb at a fairly brisk clip, expending a greater
fraction of their power on wind resistance than you or I would on the
same climb.

Dan


Plus, the Euro pros spend more time training and racing in the drops,
so climbing on the brakehoods may be a more efficient, powerful
position that sitting slightly more upright on the tops. Most of us
don't spend enough time in the drops for the lower position on the
hoods to be that much more efficient than the tops, but the pros do.
I can assure you if they could climb faster on the tops than on the
hoods, they would.


I recall reading somewhere that relatively recently (last 10
years-ish?), the pros started riding wider bars because the ability to
breath more easily/better was worth more what they may have lost in the
way of aerodynamics. Might be something to that here as well, i.e., the
tops require a narrower grip than the hoods.

No science claimed, just thinkin' out loud. I'm still riding 40 cm
bars.


Some of the pro's have an almost bizarre lack of upper body strength compared to
even a moderately fit sport level rider.* They may want the wider bar for more
support.

* Who do you suppose opens the pickle jar at the Rasmussen household

Ron
  #8  
Old August 3rd 07, 06:17 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Tuschinski
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Posts: 66
Default Climbing seated on the hoods vs on the tops...??

On Aug 3, 4:34 am, "Steve Freides" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message

ups.com...





On Aug 2, 6:51 pm, Dan Connelly
wrote:
wrote:
I have noticed that more climber climb seated with their hands on
brake hood vs climbing on the tops of the bars. I am not sure if
this
is matter of style vs any actual gain performance. Personally I
prefer
the tops since they allow me to relax more when climbing. One
possible
advantage is that the body is lower so a little less wind
resistance.


Wind resistance is approximately (speed / 40 kph)^3, assuming you can
ride @ 40 kph w/o rolling resistance at the same power on the flats.
So if you're climbing @ 16 kph, this corresponds to (2/5)^3 = 8 / 125
= 6.4% of your total power. If being on the hoods saves 5% of this,
it's 0.3% of your total power, or 0.8 watts, if you climb at 250
watts.


Obviously, wind resistance is a lesser impact the slower you're
going, so on steeper climbs, the tops have a lesser penalty. The
Euro-pros tend to climb at a fairly brisk clip, expending a greater
fraction of their power on wind resistance than you or I would on the
same climb.


Dan


Plus, the Euro pros spend more time training and racing in the drops,
so climbing on the brakehoods may be a more efficient, powerful
position that sitting slightly more upright on the tops. Most of us
don't spend enough time in the drops for the lower position on the
hoods to be that much more efficient than the tops, but the pros do.
I can assure you if they could climb faster on the tops than on the
hoods, they would.


I recall reading somewhere that relatively recently (last 10
years-ish?), the pros started riding wider bars because the ability to
breath more easily/better was worth more what they may have lost in the
way of aerodynamics.


Actually afaik that is debunked. A few inches doesn't hamper or ease
breathing. Something wich anyone who uses the tops for climbing can
agree with... you don't notice a lack of "breathing room"

The 42+ was pretty much standard on Cannondales and other American
bikes. Also, racers used to be smallish(still are) but now drops are
used by a wide range of tourists, measuring a lot more than the
average Pro^^


Might be something to that here as well, i.e., the
tops require a narrower grip than the hoods.


Nope, pure and simple aerodynamics. Another nice one: Aerodynamics
have more effect than weight on TdF cols. The speed of the pros and
the gradient make weight a much smaller factor. It's why the
Lightweight (German Brand) wheels are popular, light AND aerodynamic.
The big disadvantage is that high rims are pretty unforgiving. Using
them 6-7 hours is very uncomfortable, even for most pros.

It's also one of the reasons why drafting behind a teammate still is
important in the mountains.

No science claimed, just thinkin' out loud. I'm still riding 40 cm
bars.

-S-- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



  #9  
Old August 3rd 07, 06:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Dan Connelly
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Posts: 451
Default Climbing seated on the hoods vs on the tops...??

Tuschinski wrote:

Nope, pure and simple aerodynamics. Another nice one: Aerodynamics
have more effect than weight on TdF cols. The speed of the pros and
the gradient make weight a much smaller factor. It's why the
Lightweight (German Brand) wheels are popular, light AND aerodynamic.
The big disadvantage is that high rims are pretty unforgiving. Using
them 6-7 hours is very uncomfortable, even for most pros.

It's also one of the reasons why drafting behind a teammate still is
important in the mountains.


Wind resistance: 1/2 rho Cd A v^2, where rho ~ 1.1 kg/m^2, Cd A ~ 0.3 m^2
Mass-proportional force: M g (grade + Crr), where Crr is rolling resistance ( 0.6%, typical), M is total system mass (75 kg, typical), g is gravity (9.8 m/sec^2)

These are equal for:

v = sqrt [ 2 M g ( grade + Crr ) / (rho Cd A) ]

For example, a 7% grade: 19.3 mps = 69.5 kph

So if you can climb a 7% grade at 69.5 kph, then wind resistance is contributing as much as weight....

One issue with these wheels is due to the UCI limit, there's no advantage (except during some accelerations) to lighter wheels, since weight would need to be added somewhere else. That said, whether they are worthwhile depends on the relative advantages to wind resistance and weight; there's no magical grade at which weight becomes always more important.

Dan

  #10  
Old August 3rd 07, 07:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Sandy
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Posts: 504
Default Climbing seated on the hoods vs on the tops...??

Dans le message de ,
Dan Connelly a réfléchi, et puis a
déclaré :
Tuschinski wrote:

Nope, pure and simple aerodynamics. Another nice one: Aerodynamics
have more effect than weight on TdF cols. The speed of the pros and
the gradient make weight a much smaller factor. It's why the
Lightweight (German Brand) wheels are popular, light AND aerodynamic.
The big disadvantage is that high rims are pretty unforgiving. Using
them 6-7 hours is very uncomfortable, even for most pros.

It's also one of the reasons why drafting behind a teammate still is
important in the mountains.


Wind resistance: 1/2 rho Cd A v^2, where rho ~ 1.1 kg/m^2, Cd A ~ 0.3
m^2 Mass-proportional force: M g (grade + Crr), where Crr is rolling
resistance ( 0.6%, typical), M is total system mass (75 kg, typical),
g is gravity (9.8 m/sec^2)
These are equal for:

v = sqrt [ 2 M g ( grade + Crr ) / (rho Cd A) ]

For example, a 7% grade: 19.3 mps = 69.5 kph

So if you can climb a 7% grade at 69.5 kph, then wind resistance is
contributing as much as weight....


You have to stop following me on my morning rides !! My computer rounds to
70/


 




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