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  #111  
Old September 9th 17, 03:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 3,345
Default Taya Chain

On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 6:48:47 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/8/2017 6:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-08 14:51, wrote:

[...]

... Now I have black chain lube stains all over my hands.


Interestingly it gets black when riding lots of roads. On bike paths and
singletrack it doesn't turn black. I use the same lube (White Lightning
Epic Ride) for the road bike and the MTB. On the MTB I don't get black
hands unless I use it for valley errand rides when the road bike is down
for some reason like right now.

Which makes me wonder what all those bike path foes are doing to their
lungs.


There have been quite a few studies showing that bike commuters live
significantly longer than people who use other ways of getting to work.
Those studies have gotten that result consistently, even after
correcting for confounding variables.

So whatever road riders are doing to their lungs, it appears to be
beneficial overall. Cut the "Danger! Danger!" crap, Joerg.


Exactly WHERE can they gain sufficient data to analyze bicycle commuters in the USA? Therefore it is data from Europe. It can't be from Italy or France anymore since those places have degraded to the point where there are few bicycle commuters now. So they have to be relying on Holland and Belgium and the data reflect people from the 80's more than people from the 2010's.

I'm sure that bicycle commuters on the whole probably do have healthier and longer lives but don't go waving around "studies" as if they could reflect anything other than the beliefs of the study authors.
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  #112  
Old September 9th 17, 04:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
Default Taya Chain

On 2017-09-08 19:08, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 6:52:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 9/8/2017 3:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
O

Same with the tires BTW. They had 60k miles, still half the tread
but were well past 10 years. Looked good buy common
recommendations state that means it's time to buy new tires. Try
_that_ with a bicycle tire.


60,000 miles on the tires and they still had half the tread left?
Meaning your car tires would last 120,000 miles if they weren't too
old?

Joerg, you need someone to edit your fantastic claims, to give them
at least a _hint_ of plausibility.


Joerg needs to learn that tires have a shelf-life.
http://www.tiresafetygroup.com/tires...-in-six-years/ It's not
just about tread wear.


Age is exactly why I replaced them, as I wrote above. Good quality truck
tries can be pushed past 10 years but not much. It greatly depends on
whether the vehicle sits in the weather and sun all day. Mine doesn't,
it lives in the garage, protected from sunlight and weather. I also gave
the the occasional talc rub.


I defended a death case involving tread separation on a tire that had
more than half its tread left.


It happens. I had it happen on a brand new bicycle tire. Pieces flew off
to the point where I could barely push the bike home. But I had to
because nobody could pick me up on singletrack.


Bicyclists would be outraged if their tire tread fell of and killed
them! I can't believe what car owners put up with. They should make
car tires as durable as bike tires! And for a dollar. No, make that
$.50.


Gatorskin $45, tread completely gone after 2500mi.

Truck tire, $65, tread 50% reduced after 60000mi.

Any questions?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #113  
Old September 9th 17, 04:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Taya Chain

On 9/9/2017 9:20 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-08 14:56, wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 11:48:34 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-09-07 18:10, John B. wrote:


[...]


By the way, the number of "boat people" who escaped
Vietnam and
arrived in a foreign country amounted to about 800,000,
call it
a million and an additional 1,000,000 escaped by other
means for
a total of 2,000,000 during the 20 year period from 1975
- 95. Or
roughly 100,000 annually.

From a nation with an average population of about 61.5
million
during the same period.


That qualifies as mass exodus, especially considering the
untold
millions who did not succeed or didn't dare. Plus those
snatched
and sent to "re-eduction camps" a.k.a gulag.


What I'm trying to figure out is how someone that came
from the
previous communist East Germany doesn't know what he's
talking about
when he discusses communism but some jackass who never
lived under
such a regime can tell you all about it.


A lot of times it's brainwash. They were indoctrinated with
this stuff from the day they entered kindergarden and it
then never stopped.

They never got any meaningful information. For example, I
personally know people from East Germany who never knew
there were gulags in that country with torture and all. We
had a relative who was imprisoned in one of those and later
died of the health consequences the torture had caused.
Remember they had no free media. Even watching West German
TV could get people into hot water if a neighbor snitched
and supposedly about 10% of the population were registered
snitches. When communism fell the files (Stasi-Akten) were
opened and some people's jaws dropped. "What? He, too? I
thought he was my friend!"


Indeed. In West Germany, the camps became memorials. Under
the Stasi, they stayed open - only changed the name on the gate.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #114  
Old September 9th 17, 04:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Taya Chain

On Saturday, September 9, 2017 at 8:03:16 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-08 19:08, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 6:52:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 9/8/2017 3:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
O

Same with the tires BTW. They had 60k miles, still half the tread
but were well past 10 years. Looked good buy common
recommendations state that means it's time to buy new tires. Try
_that_ with a bicycle tire.

60,000 miles on the tires and they still had half the tread left?
Meaning your car tires would last 120,000 miles if they weren't too
old?

Joerg, you need someone to edit your fantastic claims, to give them
at least a _hint_ of plausibility.


Joerg needs to learn that tires have a shelf-life.
http://www.tiresafetygroup.com/tires...-in-six-years/ It's not
just about tread wear.


Age is exactly why I replaced them, as I wrote above. Good quality truck
tries can be pushed past 10 years but not much. It greatly depends on
whether the vehicle sits in the weather and sun all day. Mine doesn't,
it lives in the garage, protected from sunlight and weather. I also gave
the the occasional talc rub.


I defended a death case involving tread separation on a tire that had
more than half its tread left.


It happens. I had it happen on a brand new bicycle tire. Pieces flew off
to the point where I could barely push the bike home. But I had to
because nobody could pick me up on singletrack.


Bicyclists would be outraged if their tire tread fell of and killed
them! I can't believe what car owners put up with. They should make
car tires as durable as bike tires! And for a dollar. No, make that
$.50.


Gatorskin $45, tread completely gone after 2500mi.

Truck tire, $65, tread 50% reduced after 60000mi.

Any questions?


Nashbar City Rambler $9.99. Any questions? https://tinyurl.com/y8qdglvs BTW, your truck tire is about half the price of the tires on my Subaru and hardly typical of a decent all-weather tire from Michelin or other quality tire maker. And the Gatorskin is just over-priced, but then again, the price is based on the market. It's capitalism. Buy something else.

Now, you could go out and buy a hardcase tire that never dies, but it would be like riding on a wagon wheel. Go out and buy some of my Innova studs without the studs. Those are like tank tracks. I hate them.

-- Jay Beattie.





  #115  
Old September 9th 17, 07:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Taya Chain

On 2017-09-09 08:28, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2017 at 8:03:16 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-08 19:08, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 6:52:52 PM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 9/8/2017 3:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
O

Same with the tires BTW. They had 60k miles, still half the
tread but were well past 10 years. Looked good buy common
recommendations state that means it's time to buy new tires.
Try _that_ with a bicycle tire.

60,000 miles on the tires and they still had half the tread
left? Meaning your car tires would last 120,000 miles if they
weren't too old?

Joerg, you need someone to edit your fantastic claims, to give
them at least a _hint_ of plausibility.

Joerg needs to learn that tires have a shelf-life.
http://www.tiresafetygroup.com/tires...-in-six-years/ It's
not just about tread wear.


Age is exactly why I replaced them, as I wrote above. Good quality
truck tries can be pushed past 10 years but not much. It greatly
depends on whether the vehicle sits in the weather and sun all day.
Mine doesn't, it lives in the garage, protected from sunlight and
weather. I also gave the the occasional talc rub.


I defended a death case involving tread separation on a tire that
had more than half its tread left.


It happens. I had it happen on a brand new bicycle tire. Pieces
flew off to the point where I could barely push the bike home. But
I had to because nobody could pick me up on singletrack.


Bicyclists would be outraged if their tire tread fell of and
killed them! I can't believe what car owners put up with. They
should make car tires as durable as bike tires! And for a dollar.
No, make that $.50.


Gatorskin $45, tread completely gone after 2500mi.

Truck tire, $65, tread 50% reduced after 60000mi.

Any questions?


Nashbar City Rambler $9.99. Any questions?



Yes: How many miles until bald? That one is probably not even coming
close to 2500mi.


https://tinyurl.com/y8qdglvs BTW, your truck tire is about half the
price of the tires on my Subaru and hardly typical of a decent
all-weather tire from Michelin or other quality tire maker.




I have Michelins on there as my 2nd set. It appears they will also last
until they have to be swapped because of age. Cost me $65/tire at
Costco. But hard to say because now my car only travels 1/5th or less of
the miles that my bikes do. No more commute and if I had one I'd
probably use the bikes a lot (there is now a bike path).


... And the
Gatorskin is just over-priced, but then again, the price is based on
the market. It's capitalism. Buy something else.

Now, you could go out and buy a hardcase tire that never dies, but it
would be like riding on a wagon wheel. Go out and buy some of my
Innova studs without the studs. Those are like tank tracks. I hate
them.


Gimmee the everlasting wagon wheel! Though it would have to be 25mm or
less, else my road bike frame won't swallow it.

A classic example how not to design a web site:

http://www.innovatires.com/menu.php?xCPId=B05

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #116  
Old September 9th 17, 07:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Taya Chain

On 2017-09-08 19:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/8/2017 6:04 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 1:53:30 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-08 13:19, Doug Landau wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 12:46:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-08 09:20, sms wrote:
On 9/7/2017 7:59 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-06 17:25, Doug Landau wrote:
On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 1:29:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-28 15:59, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/28/2017 4:28 PM, wrote:
On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 1:59:20 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-28 13:43, sms wrote:
I replaced the chain that I broke on Saturday with one I
had in my garage that I must have purchased five to ten
years ago.

It has a connecting link and it says "Taya" on it. It's for
6,7,8 gearing. It seems okay, but I think that this is the
first time I've used a chain with a connecting link since
childhood. I looked up Taya and it's a big Taiwanese chain
manufacturer.


I still have a Sachs-Sedis 7-speed chain on my road bike
which I bought from a friend as NOS, for $6 which was the old
sticker price (the sticker had already turned brownish). No
link, mounted with hammer and anvil as usual. To my utter
amazement it doesn't show any measurable stretch after over
2000mi and sometimes I really put the coals on because of our
hills. Even the old Wippermann chains could not rival that. I
am very religious about chain cleaning and lube though.

The old 5-6-7 speed Sachs chains wore out three days after the
bike was junked.


The Sedis (later Sachs-Sedis) material and Delta hardening
process was not only exceptional but unsurpassed down to today
except for possibly Record chains. That ended with SRAM.


Why is that? In the automotive world such an advance in technology
is kept and further developed, not rescinded and chucked back into
the dust bin. Well, usually.

Simple - the motor runs quieter, and consumers buy it more readily.
Hence we saw plastic teeth on timing gears.


And they make that last 100,000mi before a PM swap. That's what it
says in my SUV's manual and when the old belts came out they still
looked like new.

The recommended timing belt change interval is very conservative.
I've
had it done on my SUV at 100K and while the belt did not look new
when
it came out, it was clear that it would have gone far longer without
breaking. There are several advantages to timing belts versus timing
chains, especially on engines where a long chain or belt is needed. A
timing chain needs to have a system to keep it oiled. Chains stretch
more than a kevlar reinforced neoprene belt. Chains are noisier.
Chains
are expensive to replace and contrary to what some people believe,
they
do NOT last "forever" just because there is no scheduled replacement
interval.


The best was my Citroen 2CV, the 16-horse version. Two meshed metal
gears (no belt, no chain). It also had no distributor and no external
belts to drive anything. The generator sat directly on the shaft
and the
propeller to cool the air-cooled engine sat in front of that on the
same
shaft.

Gear drive is noisy. It whines.


Nope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRCLxG2vQ88
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RFs5DIT27U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfhY0JZqbQU

This is the kind I had:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LNmnlDeKh0

What sounds like a whine is from the tips of the metal propeller for air
cooling which runs at the full crankshaft speed because it is mounted on
it sans clutch. They didn't shape them in any way because these were
very low-cost cars, it was just the raw stamped-out metal. It could only
be heard with the hood open and not inside the car. Later when the upped
it to 23hp there was a better shaped plastic propeller and that didn't
have a whine. However, that more "powerful" engine broke with one of the
traditions in that it had an alternator that was belt-driven instead of
the DC-generator on the shaft.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


If the noise was acceptable then we wouldn't have timing chains and
belts in the 1st place, and passenger-car motors would have used gear
drive all along.



Volvo sedans and station wagons did. Not sure about modern ones, this
was in the 80's. Rather high-priced cars so noise was a concern. The
peoblem was that one of the gears was plastic and that nixed a key
advantage of timing gears. This plastic gear didn't last longer than
timing chains or belts.

My car (Citroen 2CV) always had timing gears, all models. They were
metal yet the engine was very quiet in terms of metallic noises.


I think there are other advantages to belts (vs. gears) in addition to
noise. Gears are probably quite a bit more expensive in themselves, plus
they require much more accurate alignment. They also need accurate
center-to-center distance, which is probably an issue with the camshaft
and crankshaft separated by a compressible head gasket.


Cost isn't an issue because when work is done on the timing hardware
labor represents the lion's share on the bill. As for alignment there
isn't a problem either. I took the timing gears apart on my Citroen 2CV
because the previous owner's husband had tried to restore the engine and
messed that up. Was a tooth off. All you have to do is make sure that
the two markings on the set line up, mount, button it up, done. There is
no tensioner and nothing to align. Head gasket tolerances are very low
and there was enough clearance in the mesh. When I got that car (as a
basket case) it have 60k miles or so, don't remember exactly. The timing
gears looked like new.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #117  
Old September 9th 17, 08:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Taya Chain

On 2017-09-08 15:08, wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 1:07:23 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-08 08:18,
wrote:
On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 12:40:37 PM UTC-7, Doug Landau
wrote:
On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 8:26:26 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 5:25:33 PM UTC-7, Doug
Landau wrote:
On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 1:29:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-08-28 15:59, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/28/2017 4:28 PM,
wrote:
On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 1:59:20 PM UTC-7,
Joerg wrote:
On 2017-08-28 13:43, sms wrote:
I replaced the chain that I broke on Saturday
with one I had in my garage that I must have
purchased five to ten years ago.

It has a connecting link and it says "Taya" on
it. It's for 6,7,8 gearing. It seems okay, but I
think that this is the first time I've used a
chain with a connecting link since childhood. I
looked up Taya and it's a big Taiwanese chain
manufacturer.


I still have a Sachs-Sedis 7-speed chain on my
road bike which I bought from a friend as NOS, for
$6 which was the old sticker price (the sticker had
already turned brownish). No link, mounted with
hammer and anvil as usual. To my utter amazement it
doesn't show any measurable stretch after over
2000mi and sometimes I really put the coals on
because of our hills. Even the old Wippermann
chains could not rival that. I am very religious
about chain cleaning and lube though.

The old 5-6-7 speed Sachs chains wore out three days
after the bike was junked.


The Sedis (later Sachs-Sedis) material and Delta
hardening process was not only exceptional but
unsurpassed down to today except for possibly Record
chains. That ended with SRAM.


Why is that? In the automotive world such an advance in
technology is kept and further developed, not rescinded
and chucked back into the dust bin. Well, usually.

Simple - the motor runs quieter, and consumers buy it more
readily. Hence we saw plastic teeth on timing gears.

In this case, the non-hardened chains make less noise, 'cuz
the edges go 'ting' less, and consumers perceive this as
better shifting. ;-)

Doug, some woman came around the corner, dropped her water
bottle (so she says while clutching her smartphone to her
breast) fished around for it and ran into the back of my
parked car turning it into a pile of scrape metal and
plastic. Looking for replacements I find 5 year old cars with
200,000 miles on the original motors and not only said to be
running smoothly but still getting good mileage. That isn't
being done with plastic gears. I picked up a 2007 with 50,000
miles on it and expect it to last my lifetime with only
normal maintenance.

I'm talking about the automotive scene in the 1970s, Tom.

Doug, what cars used plastic gears in the '70's? Perhaps there
were but at that time I was buying pretty good cars like Mustangs
and Camaros with big engines in them. Not to drive fast so much
as to get on the freeway ahead of people purposely trying to cut
you off.


Volvo, but with plastic gears there is usually no chain or belt
involved:

http://212.247.61.152/EU/ZF0001_bild...otor/024_s.jpg

They could go pretty fast, too, especially after being souped up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqzDCkZh7fM

A friend's parents had a Volvo with the plastic gear. He said when
that failed it was replaced with a metal one by the dealer repair
shop and afterwards the engine was noisier.


When you hear that "week" as gears are shifted that puts a HUGE
strain on the cam gear. Though that gear does look overbuilt all to
hell.


Hmm, a friend's Toyota Tacoma does that if he steps on it hard after a
shift. He always thought it's a clutch bearing.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #118  
Old September 9th 17, 08:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Taya Chain

On 2017-09-09 08:08, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/9/2017 9:20 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-08 14:56, wrote:
On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 11:48:34 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-09-07 18:10, John B. wrote:


[...]


By the way, the number of "boat people" who escaped
Vietnam and
arrived in a foreign country amounted to about 800,000,
call it
a million and an additional 1,000,000 escaped by other
means for
a total of 2,000,000 during the 20 year period from 1975
- 95. Or
roughly 100,000 annually.

From a nation with an average population of about 61.5
million
during the same period.


That qualifies as mass exodus, especially considering the
untold
millions who did not succeed or didn't dare. Plus those
snatched
and sent to "re-eduction camps" a.k.a gulag.

What I'm trying to figure out is how someone that came
from the
previous communist East Germany doesn't know what he's
talking about
when he discusses communism but some jackass who never
lived under
such a regime can tell you all about it.


A lot of times it's brainwash. They were indoctrinated with
this stuff from the day they entered kindergarden and it
then never stopped.

They never got any meaningful information. For example, I
personally know people from East Germany who never knew
there were gulags in that country with torture and all. We
had a relative who was imprisoned in one of those and later
died of the health consequences the torture had caused.
Remember they had no free media. Even watching West German
TV could get people into hot water if a neighbor snitched
and supposedly about 10% of the population were registered
snitches. When communism fell the files (Stasi-Akten) were
opened and some people's jaws dropped. "What? He, too? I
thought he was my friend!"


Indeed. In West Germany, the camps became memorials. Under the Stasi,
they stayed open - only changed the name on the gate.


The one where they tortured our relative was in East Berlin, they must
have built that for this purpose, not for killing people. It had a
basement where they could partially flood cells, forcing the prisoners
stand in cold water for hours. That's what ultimately did him in.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #119  
Old September 9th 17, 08:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Taya Chain

On 2017-09-08 19:24, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 08:32:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 6:36:10 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 08:09:27 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 5:11:09 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

I think that you are confusing reality with your own fantasies. In
years past I have worked with two engineers who had worked in the
automobile industry. They both said the same thing, that the major
effort in the motor industry was to "make it cheaper".

Gee then it must be the government forcing manufacturers to make cars safer since the fatalities per passenger mile have dropped so precipitously.

You mean like when the government ordered that bumpers must withstand
an impact of 5 mph crash into a parked vehicle of the same weight?
Which isn't applicable to SUV's, minivans, or pickups trucks; only
passenger cars. Apparently trucks and vans never crash.

But of course, that was a stupid law imposed in 1971. More thoughtful
folks amended it in 1982 (for 1983 model year) and reduced it.


John, my wife's older Keo tells her if a tire is low. Is that by government edict? My car warns me if my gas is getting low so that I won't run out on the freeway. Was that a government edict? We are getting small sedans not only swerving in front of tractor trailers but being struck so hard that they are doing multiple roll-overs with the cars totally unrecognizable afterwards and NO INJURIES to the passengers. What are the government edicts? You have to wear your seatbelts.


Yup. Really necessary devices...

Amazingly I have had access to a motor vehicle WITHOUT the devices you
mention for (lets see....) sixty-nine years, as of this month, and
unbelievably I have never had a flat tire because I failed to check my
tires and I've never "run out of gas on the freeway" (or anywhere
else). My wife, who has only had "her" car for 20 years or so also has
never had a flat tire because she failed to get her tires inflated or
run out of gas.



Isn't that amazing? You start sounding like me. Now compare the average
number of flat tires per 1000mi on your bicycles versus those in your car.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #120  
Old September 9th 17, 08:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Taya Chain

On Saturday, September 9, 2017 at 8:03:16 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

Gatorskin $45, tread completely gone after 2500mi.

Truck tire, $65, tread 50% reduced after 60000mi.

Any questions?


Yeah, where do you get the idea that you can compare those two? My bet would be that if you actually calculate the lbs/sq in. of rubber that the truck tires is FAR more lightly loaded. Because of weight, the Gatorskin is FAR thinner through the wear zone.

You do have a complaint that the sidewalls puncture so easily though.
 




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New 8 sp Chains $10 shipped - Sram/Sachs/Taya [email protected] Marketplace 1 October 15th 06 04:38 PM
The chain slips seldom when speeding up; can this break the chain? or do I have to line up the back sprockets? Iván C. Filpo Techniques 4 July 20th 06 04:44 PM


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