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WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 25th 09, 12:45 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,705
Default WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
by Andre Jute

Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
roots.

Now a bunch of American roadies, led by Russell Seaton, have been
hounding me for being different. Seaton cites the Waterford Godiva as
the sort of bike I should have bought. All right, since these pushy
roadies insist, let's look into a Waterford bike in more detail. The
pricelist, here,
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricel...dels&Model=655
reads like some kind of a sick joke. The bare frame with the cheapest
lowest common denominator lugs costs $1800, a fork is $350 and up,
getting the fork painted to match is another $125 (!). box
"pinstriping" is $250, Rohloff dropouts $150, upgrade to decent
Rohloff dropouts from Paragon another $150 (a total of $300 for
Rohloff dropouts!). The total for the frame and fork is $2825.

No, I'm not pulling your leg. I looked it up and wrote it all down,
and then added it up carefully, several times. A Waterford frame with
a fork and the cheapest lugs plus good Rohloff dropouts, with the
single luxury of box pinstriping, will cost $2825 or 2130 Euro.

Better lugs will drive the price up by a minimum of $225, and a
machined brake bridge is $125. Remember these sums, for which you can
buy a whole bike some places. The total of $350 for a lug upgrade and
a carved brake bridge at Waterford is more than halfway to the price
of a frame with superb lugs and paint from a distinguished bicycle
maker with breeding, as I shall shortly demonstrate.

So, $3175 or 2400 Euro for a rather commonplace Waterford frame and
fork with pinstriping.

GET A FRAME WITH BREEDING INSTEAD --
FOR A FRACTION OF THE WATERFORD PRICE!

Hmm. In Germany, one can buy a Patria or Utopia custom-lugged steel
frame, with fork in the same colour, and stainless Rohloff dropouts,
and no thought of charging $350 extra (!) for the good lugs and the
delightfully carved brake bridge, and box coachlining by a famous
bikebuilder, for 700-850 Euro or a maximum of $1125, that's $2050
cheaper than the Waterford frame. And that is not for a common or
garden frame, that is for a very special frame.

Or, if you actually want the narrow-tyre road frame rather than the
German frames for tourers with Big Apple balloons, you can go to
Mercian for a Miss Mercian ($920)
http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_miss_mercia.asp
or to Bob Jackson (prices from $653, including Rohloff dropouts)
http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/de...c9 b6796b2ac5
and get a beautifully painted, arrow-lugged, luglined, frame and fork
with a distinguished road pedigree.


WITH THE SAVINGS OF NOT BUYING WATERFORD,
GO UPMARKET

Who in his right mind would choose a Waterford Godiva frame instead at
over three times to five times the price of a Mercian or a Bob
Jackson? A cyclist could have a Mercian or a Bob Jackson couriered to
the street in front of Waterford Cycles, go ask them if they can match
the pedigree, and still be ahead over two thousand dollars,
essentially the price of outfitting a bike without ever asking the
price of Rohloff/SON/BUMM/Brooks/Nitto/Ortlieb/the best of everything.

A Waterford frame and fork alone costs as much as a completely
equipped dream bike, with pedigree, from Mercian or Bob Jackson,
fitted out with the best of everything. There is no contest.

You're off your gourd, Russell Seaton, and your pals aren't any more
sane. Waterford is a joke.


IS WATERFORD'S GODIVA A MIXTE?

There's another reason to give Waterford a big miss besides having no
breeding and being grotesquely overpriced. It is that their frames
appear to be bog-standard and dull.

The same Russell Eaton we've already met as an example of someone
crazed with roadie nationalism, also tells us that Waterford calling
the Godiva a "mixte" frame is his excuse for taunting me that my
Utopia Kranich unisex crossframe-mixte
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html
is a "girl's" bike. (I'm not even bothering to answer such crass
American stupidity.)

A mixte is a bicycle with two thinnish bars running from the head tube
to the rear dropouts (or frame-ends, to be technically correct). The
Godiva doesn't have these mixte bars and therefore isn't a mixte. The
Godiva is a simple traditional parallelogram ladies' frame, pretty
commonplace really.

What Waterford actually says about the Godiva is a typical piece of
advertising department weaselling: that it has "a classy mixte
profile". In other words, Waterford knows the Godiva is not a mixte
but is trying to claim for the Godiva the prestige or perhaps the
cross-gender sales of the (unisex) mixte.

Russell Seaton simply was too crazed with nationalist roadyism (or
should that be rowdyism?) to comprehend that Waterford were
intentionally misleading him. Poor Russell.

Copyright © 2009 Andre Jute. Free to reprint on not-for-profit
netsites. For any other use approach the author.
Ads
  #2  
Old April 25th 09, 01:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,653
Default WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

Andre Jute wrote:
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
by Andre Jute

Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
roots.

Now a bunch of American roadies, led by Russell Seaton, have been
hounding me for being different. Seaton cites the Waterford Godiva as
the sort of bike I should have bought. All right, since these pushy
roadies insist, let's look into a Waterford bike in more detail. The
pricelist, here,
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricel...dels&Model=655
reads like some kind of a sick joke. The bare frame with the cheapest
lowest common denominator lugs costs $1800, a fork is $350 and up,
getting the fork painted to match is another $125 (!). box
"pinstriping" is $250, Rohloff dropouts $150, upgrade to decent
Rohloff dropouts from Paragon another $150 (a total of $300 for
Rohloff dropouts!). The total for the frame and fork is $2825.

No, I'm not pulling your leg. I looked it up and wrote it all down,
and then added it up carefully, several times. A Waterford frame with
a fork and the cheapest lugs plus good Rohloff dropouts, with the
single luxury of box pinstriping, will cost $2825 or 2130 Euro.

Better lugs will drive the price up by a minimum of $225, and a
machined brake bridge is $125. Remember these sums, for which you can
buy a whole bike some places. The total of $350 for a lug upgrade and
a carved brake bridge at Waterford is more than halfway to the price
of a frame with superb lugs and paint from a distinguished bicycle
maker with breeding, as I shall shortly demonstrate.

So, $3175 or 2400 Euro for a rather commonplace Waterford frame and
fork with pinstriping.

GET A FRAME WITH BREEDING INSTEAD --
FOR A FRACTION OF THE WATERFORD PRICE!

Hmm. In Germany, one can buy a Patria or Utopia custom-lugged steel
frame, with fork in the same colour, and stainless Rohloff dropouts,
and no thought of charging $350 extra (!) for the good lugs and the
delightfully carved brake bridge, and box coachlining by a famous
bikebuilder, for 700-850 Euro or a maximum of $1125, that's $2050
cheaper than the Waterford frame. And that is not for a common or
garden frame, that is for a very special frame.

Or, if you actually want the narrow-tyre road frame rather than the
German frames for tourers with Big Apple balloons, you can go to
Mercian for a Miss Mercian ($920)
http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_miss_mercia.asp
or to Bob Jackson (prices from $653, including Rohloff dropouts)
http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/de...c9 b6796b2ac5
and get a beautifully painted, arrow-lugged, luglined, frame and fork
with a distinguished road pedigree.


WITH THE SAVINGS OF NOT BUYING WATERFORD,
GO UPMARKET

Who in his right mind would choose a Waterford Godiva frame instead at
over three times to five times the price of a Mercian or a Bob
Jackson? A cyclist could have a Mercian or a Bob Jackson couriered to
the street in front of Waterford Cycles, go ask them if they can match
the pedigree, and still be ahead over two thousand dollars,
essentially the price of outfitting a bike without ever asking the
price of Rohloff/SON/BUMM/Brooks/Nitto/Ortlieb/the best of everything.

A Waterford frame and fork alone costs as much as a completely
equipped dream bike, with pedigree, from Mercian or Bob Jackson,
fitted out with the best of everything. There is no contest.

You're off your gourd, Russell Seaton, and your pals aren't any more
sane. Waterford is a joke.


IS WATERFORD'S GODIVA A MIXTE?

There's another reason to give Waterford a big miss besides having no
breeding and being grotesquely overpriced. It is that their frames
appear to be bog-standard and dull.

The same Russell Eaton we've already met as an example of someone
crazed with roadie nationalism, also tells us that Waterford calling
the Godiva a "mixte" frame is his excuse for taunting me that my
Utopia Kranich unisex crossframe-mixte
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html
is a "girl's" bike. (I'm not even bothering to answer such crass
American stupidity.)

A mixte is a bicycle with two thinnish bars running from the head tube
to the rear dropouts (or frame-ends, to be technically correct). The
Godiva doesn't have these mixte bars and therefore isn't a mixte. The
Godiva is a simple traditional parallelogram ladies' frame, pretty
commonplace really.

What Waterford actually says about the Godiva is a typical piece of
advertising department weaselling: that it has "a classy mixte
profile". In other words, Waterford knows the Godiva is not a mixte
but is trying to claim for the Godiva the prestige or perhaps the
cross-gender sales of the (unisex) mixte.

Russell Seaton simply was too crazed with nationalist roadyism (or
should that be rowdyism?) to comprehend that Waterford were
intentionally misleading him. Poor Russell.

Copyright © 2009 Andre Jute. Free to reprint on not-for-profit
netsites. For any other use approach the author.


Godiva? Way too complex.
Nice clean Waterford open track frame:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html

Since you don't get it,you may as well not get it in a
seductively pretty format with polished stainless lugwork.

YMMV.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
  #3  
Old April 25th 09, 02:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,705
Default WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

On Apr 25, 1:40*am, AMuzi wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
by Andre Jute


Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
*http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
*I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
roots.


Now a bunch of American roadies, led by Russell Seaton, have been
hounding me for being different. Seaton cites the Waterford Godiva as
the sort of bike I should have bought. All right, since these pushy
roadies insist, let's look into a Waterford bike in more detail. The
pricelist, *here,
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricel...dels&Model=655
*reads like some kind of a sick joke. The bare frame with the cheapest
lowest common denominator lugs costs $1800, a fork is $350 and up,
getting the fork painted to match is another $125 (!). box
"pinstriping" is $250, Rohloff dropouts $150, upgrade to decent
Rohloff dropouts from Paragon another $150 (a total of $300 for
Rohloff dropouts!). The total for the frame and fork is $2825.


No, I'm not pulling your leg. I looked it up and wrote it all down,
and then added it up carefully, several times. A Waterford frame with
a fork and the cheapest lugs plus good Rohloff dropouts, with the
single luxury of box pinstriping, will cost $2825 or 2130 Euro.


Better lugs will drive the price up by a minimum of $225, and a
machined brake bridge is $125. Remember these sums, for which you can
buy a whole bike some places. The total of $350 for a lug upgrade and
a carved brake bridge at Waterford is more than halfway to the price
of a frame with superb lugs and paint from a distinguished bicycle
maker with breeding, as I shall shortly demonstrate.


So, $3175 or 2400 Euro for a rather commonplace Waterford frame and
fork with pinstriping.


GET A FRAME WITH BREEDING INSTEAD --
FOR A FRACTION OF THE WATERFORD PRICE!


Hmm. In Germany, one can buy a Patria or Utopia custom-lugged steel
frame, with fork in the same colour, and stainless Rohloff dropouts,
and no thought of charging $350 extra (!) for the good lugs and the
delightfully carved brake bridge, and box coachlining by a famous
bikebuilder, for 700-850 Euro or a maximum of $1125, that's $2050
cheaper than the Waterford frame. And that is not for a common or
garden frame, that is for a very special frame.


Or, if you actually want the narrow-tyre road frame rather than the
German frames for tourers with Big Apple balloons, you can go to
Mercian for a Miss Mercian ($920)
http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_miss_mercia.asp
*or to Bob Jackson (prices from $653, including Rohloff dropouts)
http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/de...osCsid=68fd3b5...
*and get a beautifully painted, arrow-lugged, luglined, frame and fork
with a distinguished road pedigree.


WITH THE SAVINGS OF NOT BUYING WATERFORD,
GO UPMARKET


Who in his right mind would choose a Waterford Godiva frame instead at
over three times to five times the price of a Mercian or a Bob
Jackson? A cyclist could have a Mercian or a Bob Jackson couriered to
the street in front of Waterford Cycles, go ask them if they can match
the pedigree, and still be ahead over two thousand dollars,
essentially the price of outfitting a bike without ever asking the
price of Rohloff/SON/BUMM/Brooks/Nitto/Ortlieb/the best of everything.


A Waterford frame and fork alone costs as much as a completely
equipped dream bike, with pedigree, from Mercian or Bob Jackson,
fitted out with the best of everything. There is no contest.


You're off your gourd, Russell Seaton, and your pals aren't any more
sane. Waterford is a joke.


IS WATERFORD'S GODIVA A MIXTE?


There's another reason to give Waterford a big miss besides having no
breeding and being grotesquely overpriced. It is that their frames
appear to be bog-standard and dull.


The same Russell Eaton we've already met as an example of someone
crazed with roadie nationalism, also tells us that Waterford calling
the Godiva a "mixte" frame is his excuse for taunting me that my
Utopia Kranich unisex crossframe-mixte
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html
*is a "girl's" bike. (I'm not even bothering to answer such crass
American stupidity.)


A mixte is a bicycle with two thinnish bars running from the head tube
to the rear dropouts (or frame-ends, to be technically correct). The
Godiva doesn't have these mixte bars and therefore isn't a mixte. The
Godiva is a simple traditional parallelogram ladies' frame, pretty
commonplace really.


What Waterford actually says about the Godiva is a typical piece of
advertising department weaselling: that it has "a classy mixte
profile". In other words, Waterford knows the Godiva is not a mixte
but is trying to claim for the Godiva the prestige or perhaps the
cross-gender sales of the (unisex) mixte.


Russell Seaton simply was too crazed with nationalist roadyism (or
should that be rowdyism?) to comprehend that Waterford were
intentionally misleading him. Poor Russell.


Copyright © 2009 Andre Jute. Free to reprint on not-for-profit
netsites. For any other use approach the author.


Godiva? Way too complex.


Let's forget the Godiva. There's nothing special about it to justify
even the base price, never mind tarting it up. Especially now that we
do have something special to look at:

Nice clean Waterford open track frame:http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen..html


Okay. Very nice. A colour I love too. And excellent photographs to
perve over.

What does "open" mean in your sentence above.

Since you don't get it,you may as well not get it in a
seductively pretty format with polished stainless lugwork.


Chuckle. I get it. But the article above is about getting it from a
solder-sniffer with prices anchored in reality. I'm not even asking,
because I can't. Though I imagine that's someone's well-used and well-
loved Waterford and very much not for sale.

YMMV.


I wish you'd explain in full to some of the younger hotheads what the
ramifications of that phrase are.

--
Andrew Muzi
* www.yellowjersey.org/
* Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I had a ride on an old Bob Jackson the other day, a guy I met on the
road who was about my size. He bought it on the net for his collection
and was just riding to find out what is wrong with it. Not my sort of
bike but there was a sense of occasion about riding even an abused
example. Wavy Hetchins (?spelling) chainstays. Whole thing still solid
and stiff, which surprised me somewhat as the tubes all seemed very
slender indeed.

Andre Jute
I'm not a know-all. I don't need to be. I know who to ask.
  #4  
Old April 25th 09, 02:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Sherman[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 425
Default WHY AN ANDRE JUTE POST IS A JOKE

Andrew Muzi wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
by Andre Jute

Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
roots.
[...]

Godiva? Way too complex.
Nice clean Waterford open track frame:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html

Since you don't get it,you may as well not get it in a seductively
pretty format with polished stainless lugwork.

YMMV.


What am I missing here? How is the Godiva more complex, other than cable
guide braze-ons?

For value, I think this is much better:
http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php. $1150 for a custom geometry
frame.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll
  #5  
Old April 25th 09, 02:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Carl Sundquist
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,810
Default WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 1:40 am, AMuzi wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
by Andre Jute
Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
roots.
Now a bunch of American roadies, led by Russell Seaton, have been
hounding me for being different. Seaton cites the Waterford Godiva as
the sort of bike I should have bought. All right, since these pushy
roadies insist, let's look into a Waterford bike in more detail. The
pricelist, here,
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricel...dels&Model=655
reads like some kind of a sick joke. The bare frame with the cheapest
lowest common denominator lugs costs $1800, a fork is $350 and up,
getting the fork painted to match is another $125 (!). box
"pinstriping" is $250, Rohloff dropouts $150, upgrade to decent
Rohloff dropouts from Paragon another $150 (a total of $300 for
Rohloff dropouts!). The total for the frame and fork is $2825.
No, I'm not pulling your leg. I looked it up and wrote it all down,
and then added it up carefully, several times. A Waterford frame with
a fork and the cheapest lugs plus good Rohloff dropouts, with the
single luxury of box pinstriping, will cost $2825 or 2130 Euro.
Better lugs will drive the price up by a minimum of $225, and a
machined brake bridge is $125. Remember these sums, for which you can
buy a whole bike some places. The total of $350 for a lug upgrade and
a carved brake bridge at Waterford is more than halfway to the price
of a frame with superb lugs and paint from a distinguished bicycle
maker with breeding, as I shall shortly demonstrate.
So, $3175 or 2400 Euro for a rather commonplace Waterford frame and
fork with pinstriping.
GET A FRAME WITH BREEDING INSTEAD --
FOR A FRACTION OF THE WATERFORD PRICE!
Hmm. In Germany, one can buy a Patria or Utopia custom-lugged steel
frame, with fork in the same colour, and stainless Rohloff dropouts,
and no thought of charging $350 extra (!) for the good lugs and the
delightfully carved brake bridge, and box coachlining by a famous
bikebuilder, for 700-850 Euro or a maximum of $1125, that's $2050
cheaper than the Waterford frame. And that is not for a common or
garden frame, that is for a very special frame.
Or, if you actually want the narrow-tyre road frame rather than the
German frames for tourers with Big Apple balloons, you can go to
Mercian for a Miss Mercian ($920)
http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_miss_mercia.asp
or to Bob Jackson (prices from $653, including Rohloff dropouts)
http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/de...osCsid=68fd3b5...
and get a beautifully painted, arrow-lugged, luglined, frame and fork
with a distinguished road pedigree.
WITH THE SAVINGS OF NOT BUYING WATERFORD,
GO UPMARKET
Who in his right mind would choose a Waterford Godiva frame instead at
over three times to five times the price of a Mercian or a Bob
Jackson? A cyclist could have a Mercian or a Bob Jackson couriered to
the street in front of Waterford Cycles, go ask them if they can match
the pedigree, and still be ahead over two thousand dollars,
essentially the price of outfitting a bike without ever asking the
price of Rohloff/SON/BUMM/Brooks/Nitto/Ortlieb/the best of everything.
A Waterford frame and fork alone costs as much as a completely
equipped dream bike, with pedigree, from Mercian or Bob Jackson,
fitted out with the best of everything. There is no contest.
You're off your gourd, Russell Seaton, and your pals aren't any more
sane. Waterford is a joke.
IS WATERFORD'S GODIVA A MIXTE?
There's another reason to give Waterford a big miss besides having no
breeding and being grotesquely overpriced. It is that their frames
appear to be bog-standard and dull.
The same Russell Eaton we've already met as an example of someone
crazed with roadie nationalism, also tells us that Waterford calling
the Godiva a "mixte" frame is his excuse for taunting me that my
Utopia Kranich unisex crossframe-mixte
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html
is a "girl's" bike. (I'm not even bothering to answer such crass
American stupidity.)
A mixte is a bicycle with two thinnish bars running from the head tube
to the rear dropouts (or frame-ends, to be technically correct). The
Godiva doesn't have these mixte bars and therefore isn't a mixte. The
Godiva is a simple traditional parallelogram ladies' frame, pretty
commonplace really.
What Waterford actually says about the Godiva is a typical piece of
advertising department weaselling: that it has "a classy mixte
profile". In other words, Waterford knows the Godiva is not a mixte
but is trying to claim for the Godiva the prestige or perhaps the
cross-gender sales of the (unisex) mixte.
Russell Seaton simply was too crazed with nationalist roadyism (or
should that be rowdyism?) to comprehend that Waterford were
intentionally misleading him. Poor Russell.
Copyright © 2009 Andre Jute. Free to reprint on not-for-profit
netsites. For any other use approach the author.

Godiva? Way too complex.


Let's forget the Godiva. There's nothing special about it to justify
even the base price, never mind tarting it up. Especially now that we
do have something special to look at:

Nice clean Waterford open track frame:http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html


Okay. Very nice. A colour I love too. And excellent photographs to
perve over.

What does "open" mean in your sentence above.


I don't know either. Maybe it has something to do with where the
handlebar tape stops.
  #6  
Old April 25th 09, 02:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,653
Default WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

Carl Sundquist wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 1:40 am, AMuzi wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
by Andre Jute
Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
roots.
Now a bunch of American roadies, led by Russell Seaton, have been
hounding me for being different. Seaton cites the Waterford Godiva as
the sort of bike I should have bought. All right, since these pushy
roadies insist, let's look into a Waterford bike in more detail. The
pricelist, here,
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricel...dels&Model=655
reads like some kind of a sick joke. The bare frame with the cheapest
lowest common denominator lugs costs $1800, a fork is $350 and up,
getting the fork painted to match is another $125 (!). box
"pinstriping" is $250, Rohloff dropouts $150, upgrade to decent
Rohloff dropouts from Paragon another $150 (a total of $300 for
Rohloff dropouts!). The total for the frame and fork is $2825.
No, I'm not pulling your leg. I looked it up and wrote it all down,
and then added it up carefully, several times. A Waterford frame with
a fork and the cheapest lugs plus good Rohloff dropouts, with the
single luxury of box pinstriping, will cost $2825 or 2130 Euro.
Better lugs will drive the price up by a minimum of $225, and a
machined brake bridge is $125. Remember these sums, for which you can
buy a whole bike some places. The total of $350 for a lug upgrade and
a carved brake bridge at Waterford is more than halfway to the price
of a frame with superb lugs and paint from a distinguished bicycle
maker with breeding, as I shall shortly demonstrate.
So, $3175 or 2400 Euro for a rather commonplace Waterford frame and
fork with pinstriping.
GET A FRAME WITH BREEDING INSTEAD --
FOR A FRACTION OF THE WATERFORD PRICE!
Hmm. In Germany, one can buy a Patria or Utopia custom-lugged steel
frame, with fork in the same colour, and stainless Rohloff dropouts,
and no thought of charging $350 extra (!) for the good lugs and the
delightfully carved brake bridge, and box coachlining by a famous
bikebuilder, for 700-850 Euro or a maximum of $1125, that's $2050
cheaper than the Waterford frame. And that is not for a common or
garden frame, that is for a very special frame.
Or, if you actually want the narrow-tyre road frame rather than the
German frames for tourers with Big Apple balloons, you can go to
Mercian for a Miss Mercian ($920)
http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_miss_mercia.asp
or to Bob Jackson (prices from $653, including Rohloff dropouts)
http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/de...osCsid=68fd3b5...

and get a beautifully painted, arrow-lugged, luglined, frame and fork
with a distinguished road pedigree.
WITH THE SAVINGS OF NOT BUYING WATERFORD,
GO UPMARKET
Who in his right mind would choose a Waterford Godiva frame instead at
over three times to five times the price of a Mercian or a Bob
Jackson? A cyclist could have a Mercian or a Bob Jackson couriered to
the street in front of Waterford Cycles, go ask them if they can match
the pedigree, and still be ahead over two thousand dollars,
essentially the price of outfitting a bike without ever asking the
price of Rohloff/SON/BUMM/Brooks/Nitto/Ortlieb/the best of everything.
A Waterford frame and fork alone costs as much as a completely
equipped dream bike, with pedigree, from Mercian or Bob Jackson,
fitted out with the best of everything. There is no contest.
You're off your gourd, Russell Seaton, and your pals aren't any more
sane. Waterford is a joke.
IS WATERFORD'S GODIVA A MIXTE?
There's another reason to give Waterford a big miss besides having no
breeding and being grotesquely overpriced. It is that their frames
appear to be bog-standard and dull.
The same Russell Eaton we've already met as an example of someone
crazed with roadie nationalism, also tells us that Waterford calling
the Godiva a "mixte" frame is his excuse for taunting me that my
Utopia Kranich unisex crossframe-mixte
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html
is a "girl's" bike. (I'm not even bothering to answer such crass
American stupidity.)
A mixte is a bicycle with two thinnish bars running from the head tube
to the rear dropouts (or frame-ends, to be technically correct). The
Godiva doesn't have these mixte bars and therefore isn't a mixte. The
Godiva is a simple traditional parallelogram ladies' frame, pretty
commonplace really.
What Waterford actually says about the Godiva is a typical piece of
advertising department weaselling: that it has "a classy mixte
profile". In other words, Waterford knows the Godiva is not a mixte
but is trying to claim for the Godiva the prestige or perhaps the
cross-gender sales of the (unisex) mixte.
Russell Seaton simply was too crazed with nationalist roadyism (or
should that be rowdyism?) to comprehend that Waterford were
intentionally misleading him. Poor Russell.
Copyright © 2009 Andre Jute. Free to reprint on not-for-profit
netsites. For any other use approach the author.
Godiva? Way too complex.


Let's forget the Godiva. There's nothing special about it to justify
even the base price, never mind tarting it up. Especially now that we
do have something special to look at:

Nice clean Waterford open track
frame:http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html


Okay. Very nice. A colour I love too. And excellent photographs to
perve over.

What does "open" mean in your sentence above.


I don't know either. Maybe it has something to do with where the
handlebar tape stops.


We say "open frame" rather than "girl bike".

(p.s to Carl: tape, double bumpers, saddle angle etc were
explicitly specified in great detail.)

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
  #7  
Old April 25th 09, 03:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jim beam[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default WHY AN ANDRE JUTE POST IS A JOKE

Tom Sherman wrote:
Andrew Muzi wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
by Andre Jute

Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
roots.
[...]

Godiva? Way too complex.
Nice clean Waterford open track frame:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html

Since you don't get it,you may as well not get it in a seductively
pretty format with polished stainless lugwork.

YMMV.


What am I missing here? How is the Godiva more complex, other than cable
guide braze-ons?

For value, I think this is much better:
http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php. $1150 for a custom geometry
frame.


what's with this ridiculous steel obsession? this group has been
grossly infected recently it seems.

typically, aluminum is:

cheaper
stiffer - and thus more sable for non-freds
lighter
more corrosion resistant.

is there some kind of myopia/ignorance-of-the-facts virus i've been
missing out on?

  #8  
Old April 25th 09, 03:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,705
Default WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

On Apr 25, 2:57*am, AMuzi wrote:
Carl Sundquist wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 1:40 am, AMuzi wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
An investigation consequent on being hounded by American roadies
by Andre Jute
Last year when I was shopping for a low stepover bike, Tom Sherman and
other Americans, touting for business for their own industry,
suggested I look at Waterford Cycles' Godiva model:
*http://waterfordbikes.com/now/models.php?Model=655
*I looked, shuddered but said thanks politely, and moved on,
eventually buying a German/Dutch crossframe mixte design with historic
roots.
Now a bunch of American roadies, led by Russell Seaton, have been
hounding me for being different. Seaton cites the Waterford Godiva as
the sort of bike I should have bought. All right, since these pushy
roadies insist, let's look into a Waterford bike in more detail. The
pricelist, *here,
http://waterfordbikes.com/now/pricel...dels&Model=655
*reads like some kind of a sick joke. The bare frame with the cheapest
lowest common denominator lugs costs $1800, a fork is $350 and up,
getting the fork painted to match is another $125 (!). box
"pinstriping" is $250, Rohloff dropouts $150, upgrade to decent
Rohloff dropouts from Paragon another $150 (a total of $300 for
Rohloff dropouts!). The total for the frame and fork is $2825.
No, I'm not pulling your leg. I looked it up and wrote it all down,
and then added it up carefully, several times. A Waterford frame with
a fork and the cheapest lugs plus good Rohloff dropouts, with the
single luxury of box pinstriping, will cost $2825 or 2130 Euro.
Better lugs will drive the price up by a minimum of $225, and a
machined brake bridge is $125. Remember these sums, for which you can
buy a whole bike some places. The total of $350 for a lug upgrade and
a carved brake bridge at Waterford is more than halfway to the price
of a frame with superb lugs and paint from a distinguished bicycle
maker with breeding, as I shall shortly demonstrate.
So, $3175 or 2400 Euro for a rather commonplace Waterford frame and
fork with pinstriping.
GET A FRAME WITH BREEDING INSTEAD --
FOR A FRACTION OF THE WATERFORD PRICE!
Hmm. In Germany, one can buy a Patria or Utopia custom-lugged steel
frame, with fork in the same colour, and stainless Rohloff dropouts,
and no thought of charging $350 extra (!) for the good lugs and the
delightfully carved brake bridge, and box coachlining by a famous
bikebuilder, for 700-850 Euro or a maximum of $1125, that's $2050
cheaper than the Waterford frame. And that is not for a common or
garden frame, that is for a very special frame.
Or, if you actually want the narrow-tyre road frame rather than the
German frames for tourers with Big Apple balloons, you can go to
Mercian for a Miss Mercian ($920)
http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/frame_miss_mercia.asp
*or to Bob Jackson (prices from $653, including Rohloff dropouts)
http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/de...osCsid=68fd3b5...


*and get a beautifully painted, arrow-lugged, luglined, frame and fork
with a distinguished road pedigree.
WITH THE SAVINGS OF NOT BUYING WATERFORD,
GO UPMARKET
Who in his right mind would choose a Waterford Godiva frame instead at
over three times to five times the price of a Mercian or a Bob
Jackson? A cyclist could have a Mercian or a Bob Jackson couriered to
the street in front of Waterford Cycles, go ask them if they can match
the pedigree, and still be ahead over two thousand dollars,
essentially the price of outfitting a bike without ever asking the
price of Rohloff/SON/BUMM/Brooks/Nitto/Ortlieb/the best of everything.
A Waterford frame and fork alone costs as much as a completely
equipped dream bike, with pedigree, from Mercian or Bob Jackson,
fitted out with the best of everything. There is no contest.
You're off your gourd, Russell Seaton, and your pals aren't any more
sane. Waterford is a joke.
IS WATERFORD'S GODIVA A MIXTE?
There's another reason to give Waterford a big miss besides having no
breeding and being grotesquely overpriced. It is that their frames
appear to be bog-standard and dull.
The same Russell Eaton we've already met as an example of someone
crazed with roadie nationalism, also tells us that Waterford calling
the Godiva a "mixte" frame is his excuse for taunting me that my
Utopia Kranich unisex crossframe-mixte
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html
*is a "girl's" bike. (I'm not even bothering to answer such crass
American stupidity.)
A mixte is a bicycle with two thinnish bars running from the head tube
to the rear dropouts (or frame-ends, to be technically correct). The
Godiva doesn't have these mixte bars and therefore isn't a mixte. The
Godiva is a simple traditional parallelogram ladies' frame, pretty
commonplace really.
What Waterford actually says about the Godiva is a typical piece of
advertising department weaselling: that it has "a classy mixte
profile". In other words, Waterford knows the Godiva is not a mixte
but is trying to claim for the Godiva the prestige or perhaps the
cross-gender sales of the (unisex) mixte.
Russell Seaton simply was too crazed with nationalist roadyism (or
should that be rowdyism?) to comprehend that Waterford were
intentionally misleading him. Poor Russell.
Copyright © 2009 Andre Jute. Free to reprint on not-for-profit
netsites. For any other use approach the author.
Godiva? Way too complex.


Let's forget the Godiva. There's nothing special about it to justify
even the base price, never mind tarting it up. Especially now that we
do have something special to look at:


Nice clean Waterford open track
frame:http://www.yellowjersey.org/wfdopen.html


Okay. Very nice. A colour I love too. And excellent photographs to
perve over.


What does "open" mean in your sentence above.


I don't know either. Maybe it has something to do with where the
handlebar tape stops.


We say "open frame" rather than "girl bike".


I certainly hope Seaton sees that. This thread is was created to
educate him.

(p.s to Carl: tape, double bumpers, saddle angle etc were
explicitly specified in great detail.)


Bumpers? (Sorry, sorry, sorry, I know, TGIF and you're trying to get
to the pub.) But Sheldon doesn't have bumpers in the glossary. -- AJ

--
Andrew Muzi
* www.yellowjersey.org/
* Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #9  
Old April 25th 09, 03:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,705
Default WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

On Apr 25, 3:35*am, jim beam wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:


For value, I think this is much better:
http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php. $1150 for a custom geometry
frame.


what's with this ridiculous steel obsession? *this group has been
grossly infected recently it seems.


That's why I called this thread
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

typically, aluminum is:

cheaper
stiffer - and thus more sable for non-freds
lighter
more corrosion resistant.

is there some kind of myopia/ignorance-of-the-facts virus i've been
missing out on?


I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly and on the other
one, supposed to be smooth, it is still not smooth enough.

Andre Jute
"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
Pelayo Ricart Medina

  #10  
Old April 25th 09, 04:05 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jim beam[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE

Andre Jute wrote:
On Apr 25, 3:35�am, jim beam wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:


For value, I think this is much better:
http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php. $1150 for a custom geometry
frame.

what's with this ridiculous steel obsession? �this group has been
grossly infected recently it seems.


That's why I called this thread
WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE
typically, aluminum is:

cheaper
stiffer - and thus more sable for non-freds
lighter
more corrosion resistant.

is there some kind of myopia/ignorance-of-the-facts virus i've been
missing out on?


I have two aliminium bikes which are both eminently satisfactory
except for one detail: the welding on one is ugly


that's an ignorant jobstian bull**** excuse. if the mechanicals are
good and the microstructure good, that's all that matters to your
ability to ride the damned thing. as a sex-object, susan boyle is
positively porcine. as a singer, she's not half bad.


and on the other
one, supposed to be smooth, it is still not smooth enough.

Andre Jute
"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument instrument which
must be protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-
Pelayo Ricart Medina


yeah, and the brains of non-engineers need boiling in brine and vinegar
sometimes.
 




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