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Carbon Fiber and You



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 28th 17, 10:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 3,345
Default Carbon Fiber and You

We might as well pick up this argument here again because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using a light material to manufacture the lightest possible bikes. They are competing with each other to make a lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as much reliability into these frames as possible for their weights.

To fall back for a moment - After recovering from my concussion I discovered that I had sold every bike I had. That all of my bicycle clothing was gone. Essentially that I had nothing left from 30+ years of cycling.

And I had no intentions of ever riding again. My best friend Mike Lynch talked me into riding again. Rather against my will I bought a Schwinn Voyager and set it up for going to the store. I had lost my driver's license because of wrecks due to seizures. But in one of them I had apparently been drinking. I would not normally drink to excess so my memory must have prevented me from keeping track of how much I was drinking.

In any case the Voyager was not a very good bike without a load on it. So I got a Paramount. That was a hell of a lot better bike but it too had excessive weight and rigidity. But I was now doing strong - a Masi, an Eddy Merckx Strata OS (damn I wish I had never sold that) then aluminum and finally carbon fiber.

This was all so fast and my memory was still so poor that I didn't notice the ride differences in these bikes but only their climbing ability.

So I thought it normal to have to stand over every bump or line on the road.. To have it be painful to ride a CF bike along the broken green areas for bike lanes.

After I swore off of carbon fiber after the jillionth crash involving CF failures, my pal Mike had his head tube on his C40 fall off, luckily at near zero speed as he got onto a bicycle path. We both decided to return to steel.

Well he ordered a couple of custom Tomassini's for him and his wife. I bought an Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra frame and fork and a Basso Loto frame and fork. I put pieces together and took the Eddy out for a ride.

Wow, you don't have to stand much at all. Most road problems you simply ride over. You can really tell the difference in climbing but hell, at my age all climbing is hard.

New high end bikes are almost exclusively CF now and the prices are so high that it is hurting sales. And the rumors of failures are also reducing sales even though the likelihood is far overstated.

There are new steels today that can make tubes withing small percentage the weight of carbon fiber and with six times the distortion before rupture. But this will never be seen in bicycles unless there is a market for it.

So it should be interesting in seeing what happens? Will ridership fall back to the 90's or will newer technology take hold and multiply ridership again?
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  #2  
Old August 28th 17, 10:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 PM UTC-4, wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using a light material to manufacture the lightest possible bikes. They are competing with each other to make a lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as much reliability into these frames as possible for their weights.

Snipped

Your first paragraph contradicts your third paragraph. LOL

Cheers
  #3  
Old August 29th 17, 02:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 PM UTC-4, wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using a light material to manufacture the lightest possible bikes. They are competing with each other to make a lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as much reliability into these frames as possible for their weights.

Snipped

Your first paragraph contradicts your third paragraph. LOL

Cheers


I think that the first paragraph referred to costs of raw carbon fiber
which is probably correct as facilities to make CF has tripled in the
past 10 years. Although it is also true that demand has risen during
the same period.

The last time I was down to my LBS - about two weeks ago - they had
one steel frame bike in stock, a TREK touring bike, bar end shifters
and all. The bulk of the bikes "on the floor" were aluminum and a few
"top of the line" CF bikes were on display.

One made me think of our indomitable MTB rider. All carbon, suspension
fore and aft, and large, the sales person mentioned "3.8", I assume
inches, tires. Price? A modest US$6,000 (note the devaluation of the
U.S. dollar here).

The shop also (usually) has a triathlon sitting in the window. In the
vicinity of US$10,000.

So, I'd guess that essentially, the top of the line bikes are CF, the
average guy is riding aluminum and the low enders (who think of
themselves as true believers) ride steel.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #4  
Old August 29th 17, 03:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On 8/28/2017 9:29 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 PM UTC-4, wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using a light material to manufacture the lightest possible bikes. They are competing with each other to make a lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as much reliability into these frames as possible for their weights.

Snipped

Your first paragraph contradicts your third paragraph. LOL

Cheers


I think that the first paragraph referred to costs of raw carbon fiber
which is probably correct as facilities to make CF has tripled in the
past 10 years. Although it is also true that demand has risen during
the same period.

The last time I was down to my LBS - about two weeks ago - they had
one steel frame bike in stock, a TREK touring bike, bar end shifters
and all. The bulk of the bikes "on the floor" were aluminum and a few
"top of the line" CF bikes were on display.

One made me think of our indomitable MTB rider. All carbon, suspension
fore and aft, and large, the sales person mentioned "3.8", I assume
inches, tires. Price? A modest US$6,000 (note the devaluation of the
U.S. dollar here).

The shop also (usually) has a triathlon sitting in the window. In the
vicinity of US$10,000.

So, I'd guess that essentially, the top of the line bikes are CF, the
average guy is riding aluminum and the low enders (who think of
themselves as true believers) ride steel.


I think the steel contingent also includes almost anyone who, for
whatever reason, wants a custom frame. There's a fair amount of
interesting custom stuff happening, and it seems to be almost all in steel.

Also, there are those people who are justifiably happy with the good
quality steel frames they bought decades ago. Not everyone belongs to
the component-of-the-month club.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #5  
Old August 29th 17, 04:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 22:15:33 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/28/2017 9:29 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 PM UTC-4, wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using a light material to manufacture the lightest possible bikes. They are competing with each other to make a lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as much reliability into these frames as possible for their weights.

Snipped

Your first paragraph contradicts your third paragraph. LOL

Cheers


I think that the first paragraph referred to costs of raw carbon fiber
which is probably correct as facilities to make CF has tripled in the
past 10 years. Although it is also true that demand has risen during
the same period.

The last time I was down to my LBS - about two weeks ago - they had
one steel frame bike in stock, a TREK touring bike, bar end shifters
and all. The bulk of the bikes "on the floor" were aluminum and a few
"top of the line" CF bikes were on display.

One made me think of our indomitable MTB rider. All carbon, suspension
fore and aft, and large, the sales person mentioned "3.8", I assume
inches, tires. Price? A modest US$6,000 (note the devaluation of the
U.S. dollar here).

The shop also (usually) has a triathlon sitting in the window. In the
vicinity of US$10,000.

So, I'd guess that essentially, the top of the line bikes are CF, the
average guy is riding aluminum and the low enders (who think of
themselves as true believers) ride steel.


I think the steel contingent also includes almost anyone who, for
whatever reason, wants a custom frame. There's a fair amount of
interesting custom stuff happening, and it seems to be almost all in steel.


It is certainly possible for a private fame maker to make an aluminum
frame but it is probably not practical unless he has access to some
one? place? that can properly heat treat the frame after welding which
will likely make the cost more then a steel bike.

Also, there are those people who are justifiably happy with the good
quality steel frames they bought decades ago. Not everyone belongs to
the component-of-the-month club.


At least from what I see on the roads in this country the "average"
cyclist would be just as well off with a steel frame. After all Edie
Merekx set a one hour record on a steel fame bike that lasted for 12
years and was finally broken by another steel frame bike :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #6  
Old August 29th 17, 04:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 10:22:25 PM UTC+1, wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using a light material to manufacture the lightest possible bikes. They are competing with each other to make a lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as much reliability into these frames as possible for their weights.


It was bound to happen with the increase in plastic manufacturing capacity. We've seen it with every new material that appeared. Sharfie will be here shortly to give you chapter and verse,, starting with the switchover from steel to ali.

It may just be that I don't watch the general bike market closely enough because I'm into steel custom bikes as a deliberate choice (as well as having steel besically enforced on me because that's what people at that end of the market build touring bikes in, though if you insist you can also get stainless steel or titanium) but I'm taking aboard a distinct impression taking carbon fibre is taking quite a bit longer to displace ali in the mainstream by comparison to the speed with which ali took over from steel for box-shifter bikes.

Andre Jute
Who strayed from the normative?
  #7  
Old August 29th 17, 05:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 10:40:21 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 PM UTC-4, wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using a light material to manufacture the lightest possible bikes. They are competing with each other to make a lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as much reliability into these frames as possible for their weights.

Snipped

Your first paragraph contradicts your third paragraph. LOL

Cheers


What's this mindless spite for, Rideablot? Besides making you look illiterate, because you haven't understood simple English.

Andre Jute
Who'd choose to associate with the banana-skin mentalities in cycling?
  #8  
Old August 29th 17, 01:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,900
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On 28/08/2017 9:29 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 PM UTC-4, wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using a light material to manufacture the lightest possible bikes. They are competing with each other to make a lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as much reliability into these frames as possible for their weights.

Snipped

Your first paragraph contradicts your third paragraph. LOL

Cheers


I think that the first paragraph referred to costs of raw carbon fiber
which is probably correct as facilities to make CF has tripled in the
past 10 years. Although it is also true that demand has risen during
the same period.

The last time I was down to my LBS - about two weeks ago - they had
one steel frame bike in stock, a TREK touring bike, bar end shifters
and all. The bulk of the bikes "on the floor" were aluminum and a few
"top of the line" CF bikes were on display.

One made me think of our indomitable MTB rider. All carbon, suspension
fore and aft, and large, the sales person mentioned "3.8", I assume
inches, tires. Price? A modest US$6,000 (note the devaluation of the
U.S. dollar here).

The shop also (usually) has a triathlon sitting in the window. In the
vicinity of US$10,000.

So, I'd guess that essentially, the top of the line bikes are CF, the
average guy is riding aluminum and the low enders (who think of
themselves as true believers) ride steel.
--
Cheers,


This depends largely on what type of bikes you're talking about and
which manufacturer. I can get a Specialized Tarmac Comp with 105 for
less than a steel bike with the same group. In fact, my first CF bike
was a Tarmac Elite that I bought because the steel Marinoni I wanted
with the same Ultegra group was nearly twice the price.

I don't think the frame material is necessarily the defining factor in
bike prices these days.

  #9  
Old August 29th 17, 02:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On 8/28/2017 9:15 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/28/2017 9:29 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again
because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a
log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or
less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with
the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with
engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a
carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a
lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using
a light material to manufacture the lightest possible
bikes. They are competing with each other to make a
lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as
much reliability into these frames as possible for their
weights.

Snipped

Your first paragraph contradicts your third paragraph. LOL

Cheers


I think that the first paragraph referred to costs of raw
carbon fiber
which is probably correct as facilities to make CF has
tripled in the
past 10 years. Although it is also true that demand has
risen during
the same period.

The last time I was down to my LBS - about two weeks ago -
they had
one steel frame bike in stock, a TREK touring bike, bar
end shifters
and all. The bulk of the bikes "on the floor" were
aluminum and a few
"top of the line" CF bikes were on display.

One made me think of our indomitable MTB rider. All
carbon, suspension
fore and aft, and large, the sales person mentioned "3.8",
I assume
inches, tires. Price? A modest US$6,000 (note the
devaluation of the
U.S. dollar here).

The shop also (usually) has a triathlon sitting in the
window. In the
vicinity of US$10,000.

So, I'd guess that essentially, the top of the line bikes
are CF, the
average guy is riding aluminum and the low enders (who
think of
themselves as true believers) ride steel.


I think the steel contingent also includes almost anyone
who, for whatever reason, wants a custom frame. There's a
fair amount of interesting custom stuff happening, and it
seems to be almost all in steel.

Also, there are those people who are justifiably happy with
the good quality steel frames they bought decades ago. Not
everyone belongs to the component-of-the-month club.


Craig Calfee seems to do OK with custom carbon. We've been
happy with every one. And he delivers on time too, a habit
many custom steel builders find inconvenient to their lifestyle.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #10  
Old August 29th 17, 03:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 6:02:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/28/2017 9:15 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/28/2017 9:29 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again
because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a
log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or
less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with
the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with
engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a
carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a
lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using
a light material to manufacture the lightest possible
bikes. They are competing with each other to make a
lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as
much reliability into these frames as possible for their
weights.

Snipped

Your first paragraph contradicts your third paragraph. LOL

Cheers

I think that the first paragraph referred to costs of raw
carbon fiber
which is probably correct as facilities to make CF has
tripled in the
past 10 years. Although it is also true that demand has
risen during
the same period.

The last time I was down to my LBS - about two weeks ago -
they had
one steel frame bike in stock, a TREK touring bike, bar
end shifters
and all. The bulk of the bikes "on the floor" were
aluminum and a few
"top of the line" CF bikes were on display.

One made me think of our indomitable MTB rider. All
carbon, suspension
fore and aft, and large, the sales person mentioned "3.8",
I assume
inches, tires. Price? A modest US$6,000 (note the
devaluation of the
U.S. dollar here).

The shop also (usually) has a triathlon sitting in the
window. In the
vicinity of US$10,000.

So, I'd guess that essentially, the top of the line bikes
are CF, the
average guy is riding aluminum and the low enders (who
think of
themselves as true believers) ride steel.


I think the steel contingent also includes almost anyone
who, for whatever reason, wants a custom frame. There's a
fair amount of interesting custom stuff happening, and it
seems to be almost all in steel.

Also, there are those people who are justifiably happy with
the good quality steel frames they bought decades ago. Not
everyone belongs to the component-of-the-month club.


Craig Calfee seems to do OK with custom carbon. We've been
happy with every one. And he delivers on time too, a habit
many custom steel builders find inconvenient to their lifestyle.


I think the waiting list for a Vanilla is five or six years, assuming Sacha is still taking orders. http://www.thevanillaworkshop.com/vanilla-about

They are gorgeous bikes, but I don't look at my bike much, so I'll stick with OTC until I retire and have time to wax and shine. If I just wanted the steel-is-real thing, I might go with something a bit more pedestrian. https://breadwinnercycles.com/product/b-road/#frame Expensive, but not laughable. Waah, it comes with a CF fork. Lots of custom steel comes with a CF fork. You have to go mid-fi (Soma, Surly) or super high-end to get a brazed steel fork of yore.

-- Jay Beattie.
 




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