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Carbon Fiber and You



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 29th 17, 03:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,900
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On 29/08/2017 10:05 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 6:02:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/28/2017 9:15 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/28/2017 9:29 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again
because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a
log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or
less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with
the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with
engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a
carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a
lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using
a light material to manufacture the lightest possible
bikes. They are competing with each other to make a
lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as
much reliability into these frames as possible for their
weights.

Snipped

Your first paragraph contradicts your third paragraph. LOL

Cheers

I think that the first paragraph referred to costs of raw
carbon fiber
which is probably correct as facilities to make CF has
tripled in the
past 10 years. Although it is also true that demand has
risen during
the same period.

The last time I was down to my LBS - about two weeks ago -
they had
one steel frame bike in stock, a TREK touring bike, bar
end shifters
and all. The bulk of the bikes "on the floor" were
aluminum and a few
"top of the line" CF bikes were on display.

One made me think of our indomitable MTB rider. All
carbon, suspension
fore and aft, and large, the sales person mentioned "3.8",
I assume
inches, tires. Price? A modest US$6,000 (note the
devaluation of the
U.S. dollar here).

The shop also (usually) has a triathlon sitting in the
window. In the
vicinity of US$10,000.

So, I'd guess that essentially, the top of the line bikes
are CF, the
average guy is riding aluminum and the low enders (who
think of
themselves as true believers) ride steel.

I think the steel contingent also includes almost anyone
who, for whatever reason, wants a custom frame. There's a
fair amount of interesting custom stuff happening, and it
seems to be almost all in steel.

Also, there are those people who are justifiably happy with
the good quality steel frames they bought decades ago. Not
everyone belongs to the component-of-the-month club.


Craig Calfee seems to do OK with custom carbon. We've been
happy with every one. And he delivers on time too, a habit
many custom steel builders find inconvenient to their lifestyle.


I think the waiting list for a Vanilla is five or six years, assuming Sacha is still taking orders. http://www.thevanillaworkshop.com/vanilla-about

They are gorgeous bikes, but I don't look at my bike much, so I'll stick with OTC until I retire and have time to wax and shine. If I just wanted the steel-is-real thing, I might go with something a bit more pedestrian. https://breadwinnercycles.com/product/b-road/#frame Expensive, but not laughable. Waah, it comes with a CF fork. Lots of custom steel comes with a CF fork. You have to go mid-fi (Soma, Surly) or super high-end to get a brazed steel fork of yore.


They're saying 4000 US for that one.

http://www.marinoni.qc.ca/html/piuma-ti_en.html
This is one similar to what I was looking for but it was 3200 CA or so
with a modest group set. Also now has CR fork though I see.

Ads
  #12  
Old August 29th 17, 03:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 3,345
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 2:40:21 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 PM UTC-4, wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using a light material to manufacture the lightest possible bikes. They are competing with each other to make a lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as much reliability into these frames as possible for their weights.

Snipped

Your first paragraph contradicts your third paragraph. LOL


You apparently do not have English as a first language.
  #13  
Old August 29th 17, 04:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 7:14:14 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
On 29/08/2017 10:05 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 6:02:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/28/2017 9:15 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/28/2017 9:29 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again
because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a
log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or
less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with
the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with
engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a
carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a
lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using
a light material to manufacture the lightest possible
bikes. They are competing with each other to make a
lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as
much reliability into these frames as possible for their
weights.

Snipped

Your first paragraph contradicts your third paragraph. LOL

Cheers

I think that the first paragraph referred to costs of raw
carbon fiber
which is probably correct as facilities to make CF has
tripled in the
past 10 years. Although it is also true that demand has
risen during
the same period.

The last time I was down to my LBS - about two weeks ago -
they had
one steel frame bike in stock, a TREK touring bike, bar
end shifters
and all. The bulk of the bikes "on the floor" were
aluminum and a few
"top of the line" CF bikes were on display.

One made me think of our indomitable MTB rider. All
carbon, suspension
fore and aft, and large, the sales person mentioned "3.8",
I assume
inches, tires. Price? A modest US$6,000 (note the
devaluation of the
U.S. dollar here).

The shop also (usually) has a triathlon sitting in the
window. In the
vicinity of US$10,000.

So, I'd guess that essentially, the top of the line bikes
are CF, the
average guy is riding aluminum and the low enders (who
think of
themselves as true believers) ride steel.

I think the steel contingent also includes almost anyone
who, for whatever reason, wants a custom frame. There's a
fair amount of interesting custom stuff happening, and it
seems to be almost all in steel.

Also, there are those people who are justifiably happy with
the good quality steel frames they bought decades ago. Not
everyone belongs to the component-of-the-month club.


Craig Calfee seems to do OK with custom carbon. We've been
happy with every one. And he delivers on time too, a habit
many custom steel builders find inconvenient to their lifestyle.


I think the waiting list for a Vanilla is five or six years, assuming Sacha is still taking orders. http://www.thevanillaworkshop.com/vanilla-about

They are gorgeous bikes, but I don't look at my bike much, so I'll stick with OTC until I retire and have time to wax and shine. If I just wanted the steel-is-real thing, I might go with something a bit more pedestrian. https://breadwinnercycles.com/product/b-road/#frame Expensive, but not laughable. Waah, it comes with a CF fork. Lots of custom steel comes with a CF fork. You have to go mid-fi (Soma, Surly) or super high-end to get a brazed steel fork of yore.


They're saying 4000 US for that one.

http://www.marinoni.qc.ca/html/piuma-ti_en.html
This is one similar to what I was looking for but it was 3200 CA or so
with a modest group set. Also now has CR fork though I see.


You can get steel bikes from a dozen American custom builders such as Mikkelson and the like. You can also buy custom steel frames from the top makes in Europe. I think that you can even buy a Pinarello in steel.

Yes, many of them come stock with carbon fiber forks but you can order steel forks.
  #14  
Old August 30th 17, 03:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 08:24:37 -0400, Duane
wrote:

On 28/08/2017 9:29 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 PM UTC-4, wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using a light material to manufacture the lightest possible bikes. They are competing with each other to make a lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as much reliability into these frames as possible for their weights.

Snipped

Your first paragraph contradicts your third paragraph. LOL

Cheers


I think that the first paragraph referred to costs of raw carbon fiber
which is probably correct as facilities to make CF has tripled in the
past 10 years. Although it is also true that demand has risen during
the same period.

The last time I was down to my LBS - about two weeks ago - they had
one steel frame bike in stock, a TREK touring bike, bar end shifters
and all. The bulk of the bikes "on the floor" were aluminum and a few
"top of the line" CF bikes were on display.

One made me think of our indomitable MTB rider. All carbon, suspension
fore and aft, and large, the sales person mentioned "3.8", I assume
inches, tires. Price? A modest US$6,000 (note the devaluation of the
U.S. dollar here).

The shop also (usually) has a triathlon sitting in the window. In the
vicinity of US$10,000.

So, I'd guess that essentially, the top of the line bikes are CF, the
average guy is riding aluminum and the low enders (who think of
themselves as true believers) ride steel.
--
Cheers,


This depends largely on what type of bikes you're talking about and
which manufacturer. I can get a Specialized Tarmac Comp with 105 for
less than a steel bike with the same group. In fact, my first CF bike
was a Tarmac Elite that I bought because the steel Marinoni I wanted
with the same Ultegra group was nearly twice the price.

I don't think the frame material is necessarily the defining factor in
bike prices these days.


My guess is that material cost isn't a major factor in what anything
costs these days. In fact I would guess that it is quite the opposite.
"How much can we sell it for".

The LBS day I mentioned above my trusty Sales Person showed me an
aluminum frame TREK with an 8 speed compact gear set, drop bars, STI
shifters, etc. for U.S. $441.00. Granted this was a clearance sale of
last year's models but I doubt that they were selling the bikes below
costs and a year ago they were more then $1,000.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #15  
Old August 30th 17, 06:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 7:49:45 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 08:24:37 -0400, Duane
wrote:

On 28/08/2017 9:29 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 PM UTC-4, wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using a light material to manufacture the lightest possible bikes. They are competing with each other to make a lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as much reliability into these frames as possible for their weights.

Snipped

Your first paragraph contradicts your third paragraph. LOL

Cheers

I think that the first paragraph referred to costs of raw carbon fiber
which is probably correct as facilities to make CF has tripled in the
past 10 years. Although it is also true that demand has risen during
the same period.

The last time I was down to my LBS - about two weeks ago - they had
one steel frame bike in stock, a TREK touring bike, bar end shifters
and all. The bulk of the bikes "on the floor" were aluminum and a few
"top of the line" CF bikes were on display.

One made me think of our indomitable MTB rider. All carbon, suspension
fore and aft, and large, the sales person mentioned "3.8", I assume
inches, tires. Price? A modest US$6,000 (note the devaluation of the
U.S. dollar here).

The shop also (usually) has a triathlon sitting in the window. In the
vicinity of US$10,000.

So, I'd guess that essentially, the top of the line bikes are CF, the
average guy is riding aluminum and the low enders (who think of
themselves as true believers) ride steel.
--
Cheers,


This depends largely on what type of bikes you're talking about and
which manufacturer. I can get a Specialized Tarmac Comp with 105 for
less than a steel bike with the same group. In fact, my first CF bike
was a Tarmac Elite that I bought because the steel Marinoni I wanted
with the same Ultegra group was nearly twice the price.

I don't think the frame material is necessarily the defining factor in
bike prices these days.


My guess is that material cost isn't a major factor in what anything
costs these days. In fact I would guess that it is quite the opposite.
"How much can we sell it for".

The LBS day I mentioned above my trusty Sales Person showed me an
aluminum frame TREK with an 8 speed compact gear set, drop bars, STI
shifters, etc. for U.S. $441.00. Granted this was a clearance sale of
last year's models but I doubt that they were selling the bikes below
costs and a year ago they were more then $1,000.


At what point in history do you suppose ANY person sold things for material and labor costs and a small profit?
  #16  
Old August 30th 17, 09:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,424
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 10:32:20 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 7:49:45 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 08:24:37 -0400, Duane
wrote:

On 28/08/2017 9:29 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 PM UTC-4, wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using a light material to manufacture the lightest possible bikes. They are competing with each other to make a lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as much reliability into these frames as possible for their weights.

Snipped

Your first paragraph contradicts your third paragraph. LOL

Cheers

I think that the first paragraph referred to costs of raw carbon fiber
which is probably correct as facilities to make CF has tripled in the
past 10 years. Although it is also true that demand has risen during
the same period.

The last time I was down to my LBS - about two weeks ago - they had
one steel frame bike in stock, a TREK touring bike, bar end shifters
and all. The bulk of the bikes "on the floor" were aluminum and a few
"top of the line" CF bikes were on display.

One made me think of our indomitable MTB rider. All carbon, suspension
fore and aft, and large, the sales person mentioned "3.8", I assume
inches, tires. Price? A modest US$6,000 (note the devaluation of the
U.S. dollar here).

The shop also (usually) has a triathlon sitting in the window. In the
vicinity of US$10,000.

So, I'd guess that essentially, the top of the line bikes are CF, the
average guy is riding aluminum and the low enders (who think of
themselves as true believers) ride steel.
--
Cheers,


This depends largely on what type of bikes you're talking about and
which manufacturer. I can get a Specialized Tarmac Comp with 105 for
less than a steel bike with the same group. In fact, my first CF bike
was a Tarmac Elite that I bought because the steel Marinoni I wanted
with the same Ultegra group was nearly twice the price.

I don't think the frame material is necessarily the defining factor in
bike prices these days.


My guess is that material cost isn't a major factor in what anything
costs these days. In fact I would guess that it is quite the opposite.
"How much can we sell it for".

The LBS day I mentioned above my trusty Sales Person showed me an
aluminum frame TREK with an 8 speed compact gear set, drop bars, STI
shifters, etc. for U.S. $441.00. Granted this was a clearance sale of
last year's models but I doubt that they were selling the bikes below
costs and a year ago they were more then $1,000.


At what point in history do you suppose ANY person sold things for material and labor costs and a small profit?


1964. Eggrolls.
http://blog.iwfs.org/2014/03/peace-t...k-worlds-fair/
  #17  
Old August 31st 17, 04:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 10:32:12 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, August 29, 2017 at 7:49:45 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 08:24:37 -0400, Duane
wrote:

On 28/08/2017 9:29 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 5:22:25 PM UTC-4, wrote:
We might as well pick up this argument here again because the cost of carbon fiber has been falling like a log. You can now buy carbon fiber bikes for the same or less than aluminum or steel of the same quality and with the same component sets on them.

I have been convinced in email conversations with engineers are large manufacturers that you can build a carbon fiber frame and fork with the ability to last a lifetime.

But that is not what they are designing. They are using a light material to manufacture the lightest possible bikes. They are competing with each other to make a lighter bike. The engineers are stuck trying to put as much reliability into these frames as possible for their weights.

Snipped

Your first paragraph contradicts your third paragraph. LOL

Cheers

I think that the first paragraph referred to costs of raw carbon fiber
which is probably correct as facilities to make CF has tripled in the
past 10 years. Although it is also true that demand has risen during
the same period.

The last time I was down to my LBS - about two weeks ago - they had
one steel frame bike in stock, a TREK touring bike, bar end shifters
and all. The bulk of the bikes "on the floor" were aluminum and a few
"top of the line" CF bikes were on display.

One made me think of our indomitable MTB rider. All carbon, suspension
fore and aft, and large, the sales person mentioned "3.8", I assume
inches, tires. Price? A modest US$6,000 (note the devaluation of the
U.S. dollar here).

The shop also (usually) has a triathlon sitting in the window. In the
vicinity of US$10,000.

So, I'd guess that essentially, the top of the line bikes are CF, the
average guy is riding aluminum and the low enders (who think of
themselves as true believers) ride steel.
--
Cheers,


This depends largely on what type of bikes you're talking about and
which manufacturer. I can get a Specialized Tarmac Comp with 105 for
less than a steel bike with the same group. In fact, my first CF bike
was a Tarmac Elite that I bought because the steel Marinoni I wanted
with the same Ultegra group was nearly twice the price.

I don't think the frame material is necessarily the defining factor in
bike prices these days.


My guess is that material cost isn't a major factor in what anything
costs these days. In fact I would guess that it is quite the opposite.
"How much can we sell it for".

The LBS day I mentioned above my trusty Sales Person showed me an
aluminum frame TREK with an 8 speed compact gear set, drop bars, STI
shifters, etc. for U.S. $441.00. Granted this was a clearance sale of
last year's models but I doubt that they were selling the bikes below
costs and a year ago they were more then $1,000.


At what point in history do you suppose ANY person sold things for material and labor costs and a small profit?


Probably only when the buyer knows exactly what the seller's costs
actually were, and doesn't vitally require the product :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #18  
Old August 31st 17, 04:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On 8/29/2017 5:24 AM, Duane wrote:

This depends largely on what type of bikes you're talking about and
which manufacturer.* I can get a Specialized Tarmac Comp with 105 for
less than a steel bike with the same group.* In fact, my first CF bike
was a Tarmac Elite that I bought because the steel Marinoni I wanted
with the same Ultegra group was nearly twice the price.

I don't think the frame material is necessarily the defining factor in
bike prices these days.


I met an importer of CF frames recently, this company
http://taishansports.us/bike/. They supply frames to several smaller
name brand bicycle manufacturers, and CF components to some of the large
name brand bicycle manufacturers.

He said they wholesale the frames for around $200. This is significantly
more than the cost of an aluminum frame, which is sub $10. Of course
companies like Trek and Specialized and Giant are paying way less than
$200 for a CF frame. He said that there will be complete bicycles with
his company's frames, for $1500 or $1600 (Shimano 105 groupset). This
isn't bad, but if you look at bikesdirect, that's about the right price
for full carbon with 105, for an off-brand with basic components,
hydraulic discs, and basic wheels
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/disc-brake-roadbikes/centurypro-discbrake-roadbike.htm.
But only a one year warranty on the frame (wholesale replacement for 100
years, but their definition of "wholesale" is really retail.

So it's not the deciding factor, especially in a multi-thousand dollar
bicycle, but it's a factor. For name brand CF you're paying a lot of
extra money for the longer warranty, and the confidence that the big
names aren't selling poorly built frames.

The expensive frames are titanium, since it's more difficult to
fabricate the frame and the raw material is expensive. Steel bikes also
tend to be more expensive since they are no longer a mass market product.

---
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https://www.avast.com/antivirus

  #19  
Old August 31st 17, 05:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On 8/29/2017 1:19 PM, Duane wrote:

Like I was just saying, that's why I bought a CF Tarmac.* The Tarmac
Elite I bought was last year's model (in 2012) and $1800 CDN.* The steel
Marinoni that I wanted was twice that.

It costs a lot to be cool. CF is mass market with all those factories in
China cranking out frames. Steel and titanium are the oddballs. More
costly to make than aluminum, and a limited market of those willing to
pay for it.

And long waits for custom steel and titanium frames, to go with the
higher prices.

Does Yellow Jersey still import custom ordered steel Panasonic frames?

---
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https://www.avast.com/antivirus

  #20  
Old August 31st 17, 05:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,345
Default Carbon Fiber and You

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 8:39:38 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 8/29/2017 5:24 AM, Duane wrote:

This depends largely on what type of bikes you're talking about and
which manufacturer.* I can get a Specialized Tarmac Comp with 105 for
less than a steel bike with the same group.* In fact, my first CF bike
was a Tarmac Elite that I bought because the steel Marinoni I wanted
with the same Ultegra group was nearly twice the price.

I don't think the frame material is necessarily the defining factor in
bike prices these days.


I met an importer of CF frames recently, this company
http://taishansports.us/bike/. They supply frames to several smaller
name brand bicycle manufacturers, and CF components to some of the large
name brand bicycle manufacturers.

He said they wholesale the frames for around $200. This is significantly
more than the cost of an aluminum frame, which is sub $10. Of course
companies like Trek and Specialized and Giant are paying way less than
$200 for a CF frame. He said that there will be complete bicycles with
his company's frames, for $1500 or $1600 (Shimano 105 groupset). This
isn't bad, but if you look at bikesdirect, that's about the right price
for full carbon with 105, for an off-brand with basic components,
hydraulic discs, and basic wheels
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/disc-brake-roadbikes/centurypro-discbrake-roadbike.htm.
But only a one year warranty on the frame (wholesale replacement for 100
years, but their definition of "wholesale" is really retail.

So it's not the deciding factor, especially in a multi-thousand dollar
bicycle, but it's a factor. For name brand CF you're paying a lot of
extra money for the longer warranty, and the confidence that the big
names aren't selling poorly built frames.

The expensive frames are titanium, since it's more difficult to
fabricate the frame and the raw material is expensive. Steel bikes also
tend to be more expensive since they are no longer a mass market product.


http://www.nashbar.com/webapp/wcs/st...99_-1___204687
 




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