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Scope for a clear thinker in cycling: a lesson from the FDA



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 14th 17, 09:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Default Scope for a clear thinker in cycling: a lesson from the FDA

480,000 Americans die before their time every year from smoking-related diseases -- and the stupidity of successive governments and anti-smoking campaigners and grandstanding, dim-witted legislators. Now comes Scott Gottlieb, who demonstrates that he's a clear thinker who hasn't been captured by the hysterics of control freak Left.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...garette-policy

Why doesn't cycling have a clear thinker like Scott Gottlieb to cut through the bull**** and define the problem?

Read the article before you make a knee-jerk reflex.

Andre Jute
Stands to reason that first you should define the problem correctly
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  #2  
Old August 15th 17, 04:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Default Scope for a clear thinker in cycling: a lesson from the FDA

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 13:58:27 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

480,000 Americans die before their time every year from
smoking-related diseases -- and the stupidity of successive
governments and anti-smoking campaigners and grandstanding,
dim-witted legislators. Now comes Scott Gottlieb, who
demonstrates that he's a clear thinker who hasn't been
captured by the hysterics of control freak Left.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...garette-policy

Why doesn't cycling have a clear thinker like Scott Gottlieb
to cut through the bull**** and define the problem?


What problem? Or rather, which cycling problem? If it were one
single problem, solutions would be obvious and possibly easily
implemented. But, because there are many problems, many of which
overlap into other problem areas, no single messiah is going to make
everyone happy.

Incidentally, one bicycling problem is very similar to the smoking
problem. State and local governments derive about 0.5 to 2.0% of
their revenue from tobacco taxes. I'm not sure of the percentage of
gasoline and automobile sales taxes that the states collect, but it
must be substantial. Were cycling to displace automobile use and
gasoline consumption, the state and local budgets would suffer
severely. Same with untaxed vaping cigarettes displacing taxed
tobacco products. Never mind the merits of the arguments. Just
follow the money and you'll see why little was being done about
tobacco and little is being done for solving bicycling problems.

Read the article before you make a knee-jerk reflex.


Good article. I guess the lobbyists and vested interested haven't
gotten to Dr Gottlieb yet.

Stands to reason that first you should define the problem correctly


The fundamental problem and major impediment to bicycling is
competition from automotive interests at all levels especially
financial. Make bicycling an economical alternative to automobiles
and cycling will magically become very popular (and probably taxed).

Do I get a prize for defining the problem?

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #3  
Old August 15th 17, 05:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 6,153
Default Scope for a clear thinker in cycling: a lesson from the FDA

On 15/08/17 06:58, Andre Jute wrote:
480,000 Americans die before their time every year from
smoking-related diseases -- and the stupidity of successive
governments and anti-smoking campaigners and grandstanding,
dim-witted legislators. Now comes Scott Gottlieb, who demonstrates
that he's a clear thinker who hasn't been captured by the hysterics
of control freak Left.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...garette-policy

Why doesn't cycling have a clear thinker like Scott Gottlieb to cut
through the bull**** and define the problem?

Read the article before you make a knee-jerk reflex.


I heard recently that e-cigarettes contain some possibly worse chemicals
than good old fashion cigarettes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety...nic_cigarettes

The Swedes have Snus instead. Best of both worlds.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/sweden-f...10-gwothf.html

My own theory is that many of these bad habits are the result of
boredom. In Iceland they may have found a cure.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...celand/513668/

--
JS
  #4  
Old August 15th 17, 06:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
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Posts: 6,945
Default Scope for a clear thinker in cycling: a lesson from the FDA

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 20:35:48 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

What problem? Or rather, which cycling problem?


There are two cycling problems, which may be defined by and from
specific perspectives. The first is that there are, relatively
speaking, far too few people riding bikes. The second is that there are
far too many people riding bikes.

Which problem did Andre want solved by a clear-headed thinker?

Incidentally, one bicycling problem is very similar to the smoking
problem. State and local governments derive about 0.5 to 2.0% of
their revenue from tobacco taxes. I'm not sure of the percentage of
gasoline and automobile sales taxes that the states collect, but it
must be substantial. Were cycling to displace automobile use and
gasoline consumption, the state and local budgets would suffer
severely. Same with untaxed vaping cigarettes displacing taxed
tobacco products. Never mind the merits of the arguments. Just
follow the money and you'll see why little was being done about
tobacco and little is being done for solving bicycling problems.


Gasoline taxes are handled very weirdly in most, if not all, states and
at the federal level. In practical terms, driving is considered as if
it is a constitutional right that shall not be infringed- by speed
limits, road construction, license revocation, people in Priuses or
drunk driving laws in particular.

In Minnesota, a $10 "wheelage tax" was added to new car registrations
and renewals to make up for the drop in revenue that resulted from (1)
improved gas mileage and (2) reduced average miles driven per year.
Many of the inveterate drivers are aging out of the active driving pool
and a lot of millenials don't own cars in urban areas- they ride bikes,
walk, use transit, Uber/Lyft it or do rentals by the hour or fraction
thereof. When gas hit $4.00+ pe gallon, I noted a local surge in people
riding their bikes to work and for errands and a marked increase in fuel
efficient vehicles. Those trends only partially reversed when the price
of gas dropped to practically historic lows.

Read the article before you make a knee-jerk reflex.


Good article. I guess the lobbyists and vested interested haven't
gotten to Dr Gottlieb yet.


Of course they have. Whether you think the lobbyists and vested
interests have gotten to any particular commentator depends on which
lobbyists and vested interests have gotten to *you*. We all accept or
reject ideas and information based on our prejudices and few of us are
open to changing our beliefs. The funny thing there is that holding to
our prejudices makes us feel strong, but in fact robs us of our power to
a great extent. The people who pick our government are the very small
segment of the population that goes back and forth from one election
cycle to the next.

Stands to reason that first you should define the problem correctly


True as far as it goes; what again was the "problem" of cycling, Andre?

The fundamental problem and major impediment to bicycling is
competition from automotive interests at all levels especially
financial. Make bicycling an economical alternative to automobiles
and cycling will magically become very popular (and probably taxed).


Bicycling is already an economical alternative to driving by at least an
order of magnitude when comparing a mid-range bike with a mid-range car.
Operating costs of a bike are a tiny fraction of the operating costs of
a car, even when factoring the stupidly high prices of consumables like
bike tires (why do bike tires cost about the same as car tires with 500
times more rubber in them?).

The car I just bought listed at about 1/3 of the price I paid for my
house in 1993. My house has appreciated (according to my property tax
statement, which rivals Tolkien in the fantasy genre) to be worth three
times what I paid for it; my car won't appreciate. I could buy about 6
of my very most expensive bike- which was a silly amount of money to
spend- for the cost of my car.

What's the average bike sold to consumers cost- about $500 or so (I've
been out of the normal new bike market for decades, so I really don't
know)? Versus the average car costing about $25,000? Economics are not
really the carrot one might hope for. People do not make choices in an
economically coherent fashion.
  #5  
Old August 15th 17, 08:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Scope for a clear thinker in cycling: a lesson from the FDA

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 14:28:04 +1000, James
wrote:

On 15/08/17 06:58, Andre Jute wrote:
480,000 Americans die before their time every year from
smoking-related diseases -- and the stupidity of successive
governments and anti-smoking campaigners and grandstanding,
dim-witted legislators. Now comes Scott Gottlieb, who demonstrates
that he's a clear thinker who hasn't been captured by the hysterics
of control freak Left.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...garette-policy

Why doesn't cycling have a clear thinker like Scott Gottlieb to cut
through the bull**** and define the problem?

Read the article before you make a knee-jerk reflex.


I heard recently that e-cigarettes contain some possibly worse chemicals
than good old fashion cigarettes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety...nic_cigarettes

The Swedes have Snus instead. Best of both worlds.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/sweden-f...10-gwothf.html

Actually "dipping snus" is probably roughly the same as chewing
tobacco as far as danger to the individual. I used to work with snus
users and they seem to be as dependent on it as cigarette smokers. We
had an old crane operator that threatened to leave if they forgot to
bring his Copenhagen on the next crew change.

My own theory is that many of these bad habits are the result of
boredom. In Iceland they may have found a cure.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...celand/513668/

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #6  
Old August 15th 17, 03:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 3,345
Default Scope for a clear thinker in cycling: a lesson from the FDA

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 1:58:30 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
480,000 Americans die before their time every year from smoking-related diseases -- and the stupidity of successive governments and anti-smoking campaigners and grandstanding, dim-witted legislators. Now comes Scott Gottlieb, who demonstrates that he's a clear thinker who hasn't been captured by the hysterics of control freak Left.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...garette-policy

Why doesn't cycling have a clear thinker like Scott Gottlieb to cut through the bull**** and define the problem?

Read the article before you make a knee-jerk reflex.

Andre Jute
Stands to reason that first you should define the problem correctly


Andre - nicotine causes cancer - the tars and other detritus from smoking cigarettes causes the half dozen or more other illnesses such as emphysema.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0612094027.htm

Furthermore, most people that "vape" for more than a couple of months are very likely to switch to cigarettes.

https://tobacco.ucsf.edu/new-ucsf-st...se-among-youth

So this isn't "clear headed thinking". It is merely the government not spending the money to battle the new threat. (And I don't believe it's any of their business to begin with.)

I was a smoker from an early age but when my father got emphysema he made me promise to quit. I did and I think I smoked one cigarette after a month and that was the end of it.

Why should any tax money be spent to prevent people from committing suicide?
  #7  
Old August 15th 17, 04:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doc O'Leary[_21_]
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Posts: 27
Default Scope for a clear thinker in cycling: a lesson from the FDA

For your reference, records indicate that
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

The fundamental problem and major impediment to bicycling is
competition from automotive interests at all levels especially
financial.


No, the real problem is that people (especially Americans) are now
mostly fat and lazy. The one’s that do workout probably *drive* to a
gym to do it! They don’t want to be cold or hot or wet when they
travel. They want to go long distances in a short amount of time.

Make bicycling an economical alternative to automobiles
and cycling will magically become very popular (and probably taxed).


I’d bet against that. Even if you gave free bikes to everyone who
wanted one, most people would still prefer to sit on their ass in
traffic and scream at other cars.

--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly


  #8  
Old August 15th 17, 05:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Scope for a clear thinker in cycling: a lesson from the FDA

On 8/15/2017 3:00 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 14:28:04 +1000, James
wrote:

On 15/08/17 06:58, Andre Jute wrote:
480,000 Americans die before their time every year from
smoking-related diseases -- and the stupidity of successive
governments and anti-smoking campaigners and grandstanding,
dim-witted legislators. Now comes Scott Gottlieb, who demonstrates
that he's a clear thinker who hasn't been captured by the hysterics
of control freak Left.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...garette-policy

Why doesn't cycling have a clear thinker like Scott Gottlieb to cut
through the bull**** and define the problem?

Read the article before you make a knee-jerk reflex.


I heard recently that e-cigarettes contain some possibly worse chemicals
than good old fashion cigarettes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety...nic_cigarettes

The Swedes have Snus instead. Best of both worlds.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/sweden-f...10-gwothf.html

Actually "dipping snus" is probably roughly the same as chewing
tobacco as far as danger to the individual. I used to work with snus
users and they seem to be as dependent on it as cigarette smokers. We
had an old crane operator that threatened to leave if they forgot to
bring his Copenhagen on the next crew change.


It sounds like they acknowledge that the tobacco in snus is still
addicting. It's just that ingesting it this way causes far less
physical harm.

I do wonder if it requires as much ugly spitting as chewing tobacco.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #9  
Old August 15th 17, 05:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Scope for a clear thinker in cycling: a lesson from the FDA

On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 9:02:07 AM UTC-7, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

The fundamental problem and major impediment to bicycling is
competition from automotive interests at all levels especially
financial.


No, the real problem is that people (especially Americans) are now
mostly fat and lazy. The one’s that do workout probably *drive* to a
gym to do it! They don’t want to be cold or hot or wet when they
travel. They want to go long distances in a short amount of time.

Make bicycling an economical alternative to automobiles
and cycling will magically become very popular (and probably taxed).


I’d bet against that. Even if you gave free bikes to everyone who
wanted one, most people would still prefer to sit on their ass in
traffic and scream at other cars.


Unless you put in bike paths everywhere. Then they would ride. Really. Even if they live 15 miles from their work on the other side of a mountain. https://www.ridersmate.com/wp-conten...-of-moher1.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.
  #10  
Old August 15th 17, 05:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Scope for a clear thinker in cycling: a lesson from the FDA

On 8/15/2017 1:20 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:

Bicycling is already an economical alternative to driving by at least an
order of magnitude when comparing a mid-range bike with a mid-range car.
Operating costs of a bike are a tiny fraction of the operating costs of
a car, even when factoring the stupidly high prices of consumables like
bike tires...

What's the average bike sold to consumers cost- about $500 or so (I've
been out of the normal new bike market for decades, so I really don't
know)? Versus the average car costing about $25,000? Economics are not
really the carrot one might hope for. People do not make choices in an
economically coherent fashion.


I think you're using too restrictive a definition of "economic." Yours
seems to be counting only dollars. But at least in some discussions
"economics" is used to describe human behavior in response to benefits
and detriments in general, not just when counting dollars. (The
_Freakonomics_ series of books goes into this idea in detail.)

While I'm staunchly in favor of bicycling, I think American society
practically mandates owning an automobile, at least for well over 90% of
households. I'll bicycle to the grocery store today, but I'll be making
a 120 mile round trip in a few days, then a much longer round trip a few
days after that. In each of those cases I know no practical alternative
to driving the car.

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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