BOB vs LongTail?

Chalo wrote:
DougC wrote:
For carrying nearly any other kind of cargo, a longtail would be much
less ideal than a front-bucket baksfiet-type bike, that has a big, open
cargo area in front. Which also allows you to keep an eye on the
(inanimate) cargo, in case any of it comes loose and falls out during
the ride. Of course one can carry people in them too, which works also.

The advantage of a longtail cargo bike is that it approaches bakfiets
total load capacity while performing and handling much more like a
normal bike. The significant extra weight, small front wheel, and the
long linkage steering of a bakfiets make it slow and ungainly compared
to an Xtracycle, Surly Big Dummy, Kona Ute, or Yuba Mundo. The
bakfiets has its advantages (just as you note) but a longtail makes a
much better "only bike".

If you only had to carry cargo occasionally (and you knew in advance
when you would be doing so) then a trailer would make the most sense to
me. It can offer the nearly-flat cargo space of the bakfiets, while also
allowing long stuff to hang off the back end without interfering with
the rider.

Compared to longtails, trailers bounce, jackknife, flip over, and are
more difficult to prop up on a sidestand or centerstand. They're more
difficult to lock up and mostly less capable of negotiating
constricted spaces. Consider this: Why are pickup trucks and vans so
much more popular than auto trailers, when trailers are much more
economical and can be drawn by a more efficient and comfortable car?
The same principles apply to cycle trailers.

Chalo

I think each approach has its strengths. Longbikes are really an
extension of the rack and pannier, basically for when you need a longer
rack & pannier, they share the strengths and weaknesses of that
technique. Pickups and vans are useful, they beat a wagon or hatchback
when the loads get too big, but trailers have their place, people don't
often put boats in the beds of pickups, at least not over a certain size.

When discussing trailers, you really have to distinguish between the
2-wheel and 1-wheel varieties. I've had lots of experience with both. I
rode for several years with my daughter on a trailer bike in pretty
difficult off-road terrain, later pulling a BOB over the same trails. I
have been impressed at how agile 1-wheel trailers are in those
conditions. 2-wheel trailers and/or longbikes just wouldn't have worked.
There's also the high vs. low hitch debate. I'm more of a high hitch fan
after (some) experience with both.

Jackknifing is a concern with trailers, but based on lots of experience
with substantial loads and challenging terrain, I'd say it's a
manageable issue. Trailers can be a nuisance to load & hitch, and
sometimes tricky to park and back up, but the 2-wheel ones are handy for
moving around stuff unhitched. Some of the "grocery getters" work that
way, allowing you to wheel them into & out of the store. That approach
also can work well for bulk materials (e.g. construction or garden
supplies) and (obviously) boats.

I think that if I were going car-free, I'd definitely want a longbike,
but I'd probably want a cargo trailer, too. Longbikes suffer a bit from
the tandem problem when it comes to storage and rack transport. When
hauling kids, I'd prefer that they help with the pedaling, so for
recreational rides (on & off road) I really like trailer bikes, but
they're only practical for (a fairly brief) age & weight range. I'd love
an adult-sized trailer bike, I've been working on a prototype.

Where longbikes really shine is for big errand running, like family
grocery shopping, where bucket panniers just wouldn't cut it. You could
do that kind of errand with a 2-wheel trailer, but the longbike would be
much more convenient.

I like the concept of power assist on longbikes. My experience with
pulling big loads is that it's really quite doable except for the
occasional hills, and being able to accelerate from full stops helps a
lot when riding with traffic. You don't need a lot of battery just to
get you through those situations. I like the idea of a powered cargo
trailer even more, since the motor, battery & controller can be
completely contained on the trailer. I've built one last year that was
very successful, and I plan on doing a second version once the weather
becomes a bit more accommodating. It's pretty slick to be able to move
the load with power assist when you're off the bike, either walking
beside it or even unhitched, too.

As a do-all people and cargo mover, I think it's pretty hard to beat the
longbike. I'm particularly impressed by the standardization now among
the various suppliers and the wide assortment of clever accessories and
the relative affordability of it. My experience with racks, trailers and
trailer bikes has been that after using them I don't know how I ever
lived without them, I'm sure I'd feel the same about a longbike.

Per Peter Cole:
I like the idea of a powered cargo
trailer even more, since the motor, battery & controller can be
completely contained on the trailer. I've built one last year that was
very successful, and I plan on doing a second version....

I've asked this question a couple of times in other places but
never gotten an answer: is there an issue with the powered
trailer tipping the rider over if power is applied when turning
(i.e. the trailer's force is not in line with the bike's travel)?
--
PeteCresswell

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Peter Cole:
I like the idea of a powered cargo
trailer even more, since the motor, battery & controller can be
completely contained on the trailer. I've built one last year that was
very successful, and I plan on doing a second version....

I've asked this question a couple of times in other places but
never gotten an answer: is there an issue with the powered
trailer tipping the rider over if power is applied when turning
(i.e. the trailer's force is not in line with the bike's travel)?

Good question. I haven't put on enough miles with my first one to really
know absolutely for sure, but my impression is that it's not too big a
deal. I have taken some pretty tight turns using power and it didn't
seem particularly squirrelly. I wouldn't turn the bars hard over & nail
the throttle, though. I didn't have a particularly hard time making a
U-turn in the street, even against a fair grade.

The same thing is true for braking. If you think about it, the force is
being applied at the same spot. The thing to do with big loads on a
trailer is to use the rear brake a lot more than you ordinarily do. I've
had lots of experience pulling my daughter off-road on single track and
fire roads (trailer bike). The tongue weight helps to keep the rear end
down. There can be a tendency to jackknife if you brake hard with the
front. With the force on the seatpost, it's ahead of the rear wheel
contact patch. As long as you keep that patch loaded you're OK (within
limits).

I did get into a jam pulling 250+ lbs when I wasn't careful about the
weight distribution. I stopped on a down grade and when I dismounted the
trailer jackknifed and started getting away from me. I had to sit on the
top tube and do a kind of Fred Flintstone to (barely) get it under
control. I learned my lesson and now am careful to keep a substantial
tongue load. That was never a problem with my 1-wheel trailers, given
the way they're designed.

I'm also going to modify my trailer beds. Right now I make them with
sharp corners. On my last trailer ride in December, I caught a corner on
a guard rail (narrow section of bike path) and took an instantaneous
trip over the bars. It was pretty spectacular. I cracked the trailer
tongue in two and landed on my chin.

Pulling a substantial trailer load with a seat post hitch isn't
particularly difficult, particularly with 2-wheel trailers since they
don't have the side-to-side flop tendency that 1-wheelers do. You do
have to be a little conservative, since handling and braking aren't
exactly what you're used to. Some of my friends used to worry that I
might have crashed with my daughter, but thankfully I never did.

On 2010-02-23, !Jones wrote:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 14:12:13 -0800 (PST), in rec.bicycles.tech Andre Jute wrote:

Also, I wondered how precisely one can
place a trailer behind one at speed.

I'm not a BOB *believer*; however, I do use one. In terms of dynamic
stability and tracking, I give them quite high marks. I say this
having used a few other products such as a Burley trailer and a
longtail. Tracking is the BOB's forte and it's a great package for
*that*.

Its problem is that you frequently need to roll the bicycle backwards
and, until you have a loaded BOB hooked up, you don't realize how
often that is... and it's a PITA!

BOBs are also prone to jackknife situations while you're trying to
load them. If it's even slightly off a straight line, the downward
force pulls it into a jackknife.

It is my opinion that, once you manage to get the damn thing loaded,
pointed in the right direction, and under weigh, the BOB is the best
unit. It's also my experience that this is only half of the picture
and that one should consider the whole thing before buying one.

This is very accurate advice. The only thing I'll add is that the
side forces grow quickly as the trailer load increases; with a BOB
the trailer can torque the bike sideways due to its attachment on
both ends of the rear axle.

I imagine the reason you're only supposed to haul 70lb in the trailer
is because the low-speed handling can get pretty squirrely as weight
increases. I once moved 210lb of ice (five six-packs of seven pound
bags) in my BOB. In order to load it I had to lean the bike and
trailer up against a sturdy wall. To get started I rode along the
wall and pulled away after I got a little speed. Riding with it
was really tough, as any motion off-center was magnified by the
overhanging weight on the trailer. I wouldn't repeat the experience
and was probably also lucky not to break the BOB quick-release.

--
Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?"
"You uudecode it."
http://zer0.org/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?"

Gregory Sutter wrote:
On 2010-02-23, !Jones wrote:
On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 14:12:13 -0800 (PST), in rec.bicycles.tech Andre Jute wrote:

Also, I wondered how precisely one can
place a trailer behind one at speed.
I'm not a BOB *believer*; however, I do use one. In terms of dynamic
stability and tracking, I give them quite high marks. I say this
having used a few other products such as a Burley trailer and a
longtail. Tracking is the BOB's forte and it's a great package for
*that*.

Its problem is that you frequently need to roll the bicycle backwards
and, until you have a loaded BOB hooked up, you don't realize how
often that is... and it's a PITA!

BOBs are also prone to jackknife situations while you're trying to
load them. If it's even slightly off a straight line, the downward
force pulls it into a jackknife.

It is my opinion that, once you manage to get the damn thing loaded,
pointed in the right direction, and under weigh, the BOB is the best
unit. It's also my experience that this is only half of the picture
and that one should consider the whole thing before buying one.

This is very accurate advice. The only thing I'll add is that the
side forces grow quickly as the trailer load increases; with a BOB
the trailer can torque the bike sideways due to its attachment on
both ends of the rear axle.

The BOB gets squirrelly with load because the place it attaches to (rear
wheel axle) doesn't provide torsional stiffness. What you get is
essentially 2 large masses connected together with a torsion spring, and
it will start oscillating. Single wheel trailers that attach to the seat
post are much more stable, even with larger loads.

The really disappointing thing about the BOB is its lack of ground
clearance due to its small wheel. Given that it's designed (purportedly)
to be used off-road, the dinky wheel makes no sense. I've used mine
extensively off road and the frame is quite battered from bottoming, it
has also tossed me over the bars a couple of times. A BOB with a full
sized wheel and an Xtracycle type frame over & behind the wheel would be
much more capable.

Andre Jute wrote:
On Feb 20, 1:37 pm, Peter Cole wrote:
(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Idle curiosity question:
What do longtails like Surly's Big Dummy or Yuba's Mundo offer
that a sophisticated trailer like one of BobGears does not?
More capacity, including passengers, the BOB has relatively modest
weight and volume capacity. The BOB also tends to thrash its cargo
badly. The BOB is particularly good at light loads & rough terrain,
which is mostly what I've used mine for (MTB picnics). It's OK for light
grocery shopping, but a bit of a PITA for general errand running, I
prefer a low-tech milk crate on rear rack (or bucket panniers). I might
consider it an alternative to panniers for loaded touring.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have much use for a long-tail. I've made
several 2-wheel trailers and use them to haul my boats around. I've gone
up to ~600 lb total weight (including me & the bike, trailer and cargo),
and that's with boats up to 16' long. No exotic parts or materials --
dimensional lumber, lag screws and cast-off MTB wheels. A long tail with
cargo bags might be good for heavy grocery shopping, but so would a
(2-wheel) trailer, and the trailer is much cheaper and easier to store.
The long-tail is a solution looking for a problem in my world.

A bit off the OP's interest, but what do you think of this small-wheel
trailer he http://www.utopia-fahrrad.de/Fahrrad...ailer_233.html
I thought about getting one just to try it on my groceries but decided
I would never haul 40kg of groceries and could manage with pannier
baskets. (And spent the money instead getting gold coachlining, Brooks
saddle and Brooks grips, and with the change bought a big leather
saddlebag.) Also, on a bike that already has a long wheelbase, a
trailer would probably be cumbersome in some of the narrow alleys I
shoot through between streets, or on the footbridge I routinely use to
come home and on the downhill side hit at at 40kph with about two
inches to spare on either side. Also, I wondered how precisely one can
place a trailer behind one at speed.

I like the design of this trailer, but like so many designs, it's
probably good for only a narrow range of tasks. As you point out, it may
be overkill for shopping, depending on what kind of shopping you do. It
might be nice to have a trailer that you can pull while walking, but I'm
not sure if that's frequent enough to justify the design, and if the
uses are separate, then perhaps dedicated devices of each type might be
better. For grocery shopping, the tall form factor means vertical
stacking and potential for squishing, small wheels make for a rough
ride, too. In theory, bringing the trailer into the store (or house)
seems handier than bringing the groceries out & (un)packing outdoors,
but I'm not convinced it would work out so smoothly in practice, I
suppose it would depend heavily on specific circumstances.

Tracking isn't usually a problem. That said, recently I got a little
careless with one of my boat trailers and caught an edge, leading to an
instantaneous trip over the handlebars. I pull boats up to 16', and
expected the length to be more of a problem than it's turned out to be.

Peter Cole wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Feb 20, 1:37 pm, Peter Cole wrote:
(PeteCresswell) wrote:
Idle curiosity question:
What do longtails like Surly's Big Dummy or Yuba's Mundo offer
that a sophisticated trailer like one of BobGears does not?
More capacity, including passengers, the BOB has relatively modest
weight and volume capacity. The BOB also tends to thrash its cargo
badly. The BOB is particularly good at light loads & rough terrain,
which is mostly what I've used mine for (MTB picnics). It's OK for light
grocery shopping, but a bit of a PITA for general errand running, I
prefer a low-tech milk crate on rear rack (or bucket panniers). I might
consider it an alternative to panniers for loaded touring.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have much use for a long-tail. I've made
several 2-wheel trailers and use them to haul my boats around. I've gone
up to ~600 lb total weight (including me & the bike, trailer and cargo),
and that's with boats up to 16' long. No exotic parts or materials --
dimensional lumber, lag screws and cast-off MTB wheels. A long tail with
cargo bags might be good for heavy grocery shopping, but so would a
(2-wheel) trailer, and the trailer is much cheaper and easier to store.
The long-tail is a solution looking for a problem in my world.

A bit off the OP's interest, but what do you think of this small-wheel
trailer he http://www.utopia-fahrrad.de/Fahrrad...ailer_233.html
I thought about getting one just to try it on my groceries but decided
I would never haul 40kg of groceries and could manage with pannier
baskets. (And spent the money instead getting gold coachlining, Brooks
saddle and Brooks grips, and with the change bought a big leather
saddlebag.) Also, on a bike that already has a long wheelbase, a
trailer would probably be cumbersome in some of the narrow alleys I
shoot through between streets, or on the footbridge I routinely use to
come home and on the downhill side hit at at 40kph with about two
inches to spare on either side. Also, I wondered how precisely one can
place a trailer behind one at speed.

I like the design of this trailer, but like so many designs, it's
probably good for only a narrow range of tasks. As you point out, it may
be overkill for shopping, depending on what kind of shopping you do. It
might be nice to have a trailer that you can pull while walking, but I'm
not sure if that's frequent enough to justify the design, and if the
uses are separate, then perhaps dedicated devices of each type might be
better. For grocery shopping, the tall form factor means vertical
stacking and potential for squishing, small wheels make for a rough
ride, too. In theory, bringing the trailer into the store (or house)
seems handier than bringing the groceries out & (un)packing outdoors,
but I'm not convinced it would work out so smoothly in practice, I
suppose it would depend heavily on specific circumstances.

Tracking isn't usually a problem. That said, recently I got a little
careless with one of my boat trailers and caught an edge, leading to an
instantaneous trip over the handlebars. I pull boats up to 16', and
expected the length to be more of a problem than it's turned out to be.

Thanks, gentlemen. I didn't buy one of those Utopia trailers because
of the way I often arrive at the shops: after a wild ride over the
hills of West Cork. I thought the small wheels would cause the thing
to bounce around too much. I considered the Bob type, which at least
at speed on (presently, suddenly, shockingly) bad road surfaces would
be good, but the almost universal mention of jack-knifing and the
impossibility of reversing persuaded me it was not a viable
alternative for me. There is absolutely no way I can arrange my
bicycling without reversing many times a day; after reading the
experiences in this thread I started counting how many times I
reversed the bike on a single day but by the time I lost track and
started making ticks on a piece of paper it was clearly already a
futile exercise. One doesn't notice these things, like reversing,
until your attention is drawn to it... Zero point in buying a zero
maintenance bike so that you can just jump on it and ride when the
mood takes you -- and then lumbering with a daily irritation.

Just to conclude my original line of thought. My Utopia is the first
bike on which I regularly do even modest shopping, though I do that
quite often now. But the measure of "six bottles of wine" that I
defined and declared here when I was shopping for luggage has proved
inspired, because that neatly defines the box size that is most
useful. Though I have a selection of luggage I can strap up (Ortlieb
Classic Rollers, Ortlieb hard pannier case, various hard and soft
briefcase types bought and of my own making, what has been on the bike
now for many months now is a leather saddlebag used as a bar bag
(strapped around the handlebars and the head tube), an old canvas and
leather doctor's bag as a racktop bag, and a single Basil Cardiff
pannier basket, plus a tiny leather purse as a toolbag. Out of this
lot the Basil Cardiff pannier basket is the absolute bargain at under
twenty euro. I could take the basket off the bike and carry it into
stores or the library but I can't be bothered -- I just carry stuff to
and from it in my hands. I don't remove the basket for fast work
either, though I've put a webbing strap around the bottom, to stop a
small banging noise (no point in buying an eerily silent bicycle and
then adding noise to it...) rather than to protect the paintwork; I
suspect that most owners of such baskets never in their lives rode a
bicycle like I ride mine, nor intend to.

By the way, though it is generally true that I live in a low-crime
area, I've never lost anything from my open basket, and I just leave
stuff in it all the time and walk away from the bike into the bank or
the library or the mall for an hour or so. In this regard, it is
interesting that in BUMM's Cyo instructions they explain that one of
the switch positions is to switch off the standlight so as not to
attract attention to your bike when it is parked. On the contrary, I
leave not only the standlights on, but also the flashing lights front
and rear which I run day and night. I don't think they act as an
attractor to thieves and vandals but as a warning that passersby will
see them do their anti-social thing and call the police or the owner.

Thanks to all who contributed to a most informative thread.

Andre Jute
I'm not a know-all. I don't need to be. I know who to ask.

Peter Cole wrote:
[...]
The really disappointing thing about the BOB is its lack of ground
clearance due to its small wheel. Given that it's designed (purportedly)
to be used off-road, the dinky wheel makes no sense. I've used mine
extensively off road and the frame is quite battered from bottoming, it
has also tossed me over the bars a couple of times. A BOB with a full
sized wheel and an Xtracycle type frame over & behind the wheel would be
much more capable.

You have yourself a welding project!

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007