THE LOGIC OF TRIKES an outsider's viewpoint by Andre Jute

On Jun 5, 1:31*am, someone wrote:
On 4 June, 23:30, Andre Jute wrote:

In the simplest version the angle of tilt is directly proportional to
steering angle; that's the point of equal length parallel arms. It's
limited by bump stops, generally to something around 35 to 40 degrees.

I feel we're thinking of different things, I'm not certain what you're
getting at. *What are you attempting to explain? *Perhaps a piccy will
help.

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/On Jun 5, 1:31 am, someone
wrote:
On 4 June, 23:30, Andre Jute wrote:

In the simplest version the angle of tilt is directly proportional to
steering angle; that's the point of equal length parallel arms. It's
limited by bump stops, generally to something around 35 to 40 degrees.

I feel we're thinking of different things, I'm not certain what you're
getting at. What are you attempting to explain? Perhaps a piccy will
help.

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/ELPwbroll.gif

And where does the energy come
frome to lift the rider back up?

You're looking at the ultra-neddy description of a complicated
mechanism. I clearly said, "if we abstract all the complications and
qualification and reduce a tilting suspension to the [w]ishbone of
necessity," then we get the explanation above. We can't have it both
ways, idiots complaining that they don't understand the full version
because it is too complicated and long because it needs to include so
many factors, the more knowledgeable complaining that the neddy
version is incomplete.

How about using roller skate steering? *The angular positioning of the
rider would be assisted in location by the 'steering bar', the
steering follows. *To exit a turn, one straightens up using the bars
and the steering straightens up. *The steering inducer is also the
suspension being a pivot in a rubber block. *Clamping force
compressing the block varies the steering response.

Then we also could do away with the pedals and the seat. The rider
could "walk" on planks attached to a crank near the rear wheel, and
lean over with the steering bar.

But it's a good question. The righting energy comes from the road
flattening after the turn, the self-centring geometry of the wheel
angles in three dimensions, the stored energy in the springs, and from
the rider's arm muscles.

This whole business of a perfected or at least well developed tilting
trike is starting to sound less restful and more and more strenuous.
We're back where we started, at the extreme, only standing up rather
than lying down with our arse scraping the road. I think I'm for the
simple tilter with a WWWWWIDDDDE track.

I have to get back to work!

Andre Jute
Visit Andre's books at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/THE%20WRITER'S%20HOUSE.html

On 5 June, 02:53, Andre Jute wrote:

I feel we're thinking of different things, I'm not certain what you're
getting at. *What are you attempting to explain? *Perhaps a piccy will
help.

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/ELPwbroll.gif

suspicion confirmed.
you're considering increasing negative camber with suspension
compression while I'm thinking of shifting the relative positions of c
of g to tyre contact point to a greater degree by rotation of the
whole front 'axle' wrt the rider, as in lowering the outer wheel and
lifting the inner wheel or alternatively thought of as leaning the
rider.


And where does the energy come
frome to lift the rider back up?


How about using roller skate steering? *The angular positioning of the
rider would be assisted in location by the 'steering bar', the
steering follows. *To exit a turn, one straightens up using the bars
and the steering straightens up. *The steering inducer is also the
suspension being a pivot in a rubber block. *Clamping force
compressing the block varies the steering response.

Then we also could do away with the pedals and the seat. The rider
could "walk" on planks attached to a crank near the rear wheel, and
lean over with the steering bar.

Ha Ha, the beast on (a) tricycle.

But it's a good question. The righting energy comes from the road
flattening after the turn, the self-centring geometry of the wheel
angles in three dimensions, the stored energy in the springs, and from
the rider's arm muscles.

This whole business of a perfected or at least well developed tilting
trike is starting to sound less restful and more and more strenuous.
We're back where we started, at the extreme, only standing up rather
than lying down with our arse scraping the road. I think I'm for the
simple tilter with a WWWWWIDDDDE track.

You were being serious?

It is not necessary to stand to effect the steering mechanism of a
roller skate type truck. It is conceivable the mechanism works with
the operator in a sitting position.

On Jun 5, 4:29*am, someone wrote:
On 5 June, 02:53, Andre Jute wrote:

I feel we're thinking of different things, I'm not certain what you're
getting at. *What are you attempting to explain? *Perhaps a piccy will
help.

*http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/ELPwbroll.gif

suspicion confirmed.
you're considering increasing negative camber with suspension
compression while I'm thinking of shifting the relative positions of c
of g to tyre contact point to a greater degree by rotation of the
whole front 'axle' wrt the rider, as in lowering the outer wheel and
lifting the inner wheel or alternatively thought of as leaning the
rider.

And where does the energy come
frome to lift the rider back up?

How about using roller skate steering? *The angular positioning of the
rider would be assisted in location by the 'steering bar', the
steering follows. *To exit a turn, one straightens up using the bars
and the steering straightens up. *The steering inducer is also the
suspension being a pivot in a rubber block. *Clamping force
compressing the block varies the steering response.

Then we also could do away with the pedals and the seat. The rider
could "walk" on planks attached to a crank near the rear wheel, and
lean over with the steering bar.

Ha Ha, the beast on (a) tricycle.

But it's a good question. The righting energy comes from the road
flattening after the turn, the self-centring geometry of the wheel
angles in three dimensions, the stored energy in the springs, and from
the rider's arm muscles.

This whole business of a perfected or at least well developed tilting
trike is starting to sound less restful and more and more strenuous.
We're back where we started, at the extreme, only standing up rather
than lying down with our arse scraping the road. I think I'm for the
simple tilter with a WWWWWIDDDDE track.

You were being serious?

Sure. I invested a day in considering the general principles of trikes
and dismissing deltas, another in window shopping for an existing
tadpole and finding only one (the Anthrotech) that wasn't wretched,
and then several days bringing a custom design to be built up to a
rough sketch design level. That's how I decided a wide track and
simple tilting would probably do the job. Though I gave up the idea of
a trike because my lanes are too narrow for cars to pass a wide trike,
I'm still interested in ideas that can make a slightly narrower trike
as fast. We've given some way-out ideas a good bash but I doubt I'll
build something anywhere near as extreme as some of the ideas we've
canvassed, if I ever do build it. For sure I don't want to build a
trike that has to be carried in a van to where I can ride it on a
closed road or other protected space. If the thing can't go on the
streets and in my lanes, it's no good to me. I like building useful
things and I don't like wasting money -- just like everyone else!

It is not necessary to stand to effect the steering mechanism of a
roller skate type truck. *It is conceivable the mechanism works with
the operator in a sitting position.

Slainte!

Andre Jute
Reformed petrol head
Car-free since 1992
Greener than thou!

Hi,

Andre Jute wrote:
(chain)
I did say so, but there were conditions. The chains on my bikes are
single chains in fully enclosing chaincases, driving enclosed hub
gear, no derailleurs, no idlers, no slack, no sideways movement. Show
me a tadpole trike with a similarly cosseted chain, or even one on
which it may be possible to fit such a thing, and we can reopen the
discussion.

You can fit a trike (or any recumbent) with a fully-enclosed chain,
provided you have a hub gear shift. Just apply the "Hebie Chainglider"
and use the chain tubes (which are present, anyway) in between. Will be
a bit of tweaking, but should be possible.

While you're at it, you can add a chain-lubing-mechanism, just use a
small oil reservoir (e.g. a syringe) and connect it to the chain case.
Make sure it puts the oil on the chain drop-wise over time ;-)

Actually it's the same on a "normal" bike, you have an area defined by
the contact patches of rear and front wheel, which the "gravity vector"
must stay inside. Otherwise you "flip". With a trike, that area is
simply shaped differently and is larger sideways.

True in strict theory. But in practice the front tyre contact patch on
....

Well, by leaning into corners, you keep the force centered within the
contact patch - that's why bicycle riders usually don't ride in exact
line...

Why would you want the rider's feet inside the wheelbase? What's the
reason?

Safety of rider and pedestrians and automobile bodywork. Psychology of
rider and pedestrians. Simply not looking naff.

Do you care about the bodywork of a car that is trying to hit you
(whether by accident or not)? Me, I don't - actually I wouldn't care if
a car that overtakes me too closely gets scratched, though I wouldn't
want any car to overtake me so close anyway...

For everything else, I don't see your argument, if you're concerned,
just put a protective beam in front - much like a "streamer".

Hang on a minute. I didn't write that, and what is more, I don't agree
...

Did I cite wrong? Sorry.

The links I described for creating a leaning trike are equal length
....

As I read this, you have a design complete and ready to build? Sounds good!

See above; leaves unless very stiff indeed would have to be
accompanied by a rigid link (the radius stay, if brought in to the
centre line and made not too long might do double duty). The Dutch

As I see it, using springy material instead of fixed beams and/or
suspension is an option, though I don't know about performance. On a
tadpole trike, the front wheels are attached to a front beam or a
suspension linkage. Why not build a springy front beam - which localizes
the wheels as well as a fixed beam would do, but provides a minuscle
amount of suspension. Actually I do not see much reason for front
suspension, at least not when using reasonably ballon-ish tires. I'd
rather suspend the seat (and/or the rear wheel) than spend money for
front suspension. That's what my test-ride suggests...

Tripod trike http://www.tripod-bikes.com/ has a front beam which may

Nice one ;-)

be either articulated in the middle (swing axle), or a solid axle
pivoting on a centre mount. I cannot quite see on the photographs and
....

Looks like the front beam is fixed and can only rotate to provide roll
for the trike. They don't seem to have front suspension, just leaning.

Because even basic, tilting suspension will corner faster than a rigid

At that point I'd like to differentiate between high-performance trikes
and utility trikes. The ones built primarily for performance usually put
the seat rather low, while the utility ones rather expect the rider to
go slower around corners. So, if you just want to go fast, get a
low-racer trike where your shoulders scrape the road - you won't need
suspension and tilting for that... If you, however, want a high seat,
you need to compromise in terms of cornering speed...

Sure you can blur the line, but further up, you state that "low
maintenance" is a requirement, so any complicated suspension is ruled
out - it needs maintenance, however little. That's actually why I would
try using a slightly springy frame - instead of bushings, springs, ...

trike. First of all, the correct tilting angle for any given speed is
an on-off switch only in the minds of engineers just out of college;
in real life there is always a range over which just the minuscule
slop in even a well-engineered suspension will adapt to circumstances.

Have you ever sat on a train that stopped on a corner of a
high-speed-line? That's annoying! Apart from that, cars don't tilt into
corners and they work well, so why shouldn't a bicycle? I'd only expect
a problem if the wheel is built too light ;-)

....
starting to wonder if one A arm and either your leaf spring or a
really bendy MacPherson strut might not have certain advantages...

;-)

I really should emphasize that even a tilting tricycle will likely
never be as fast as a bike around a corner on good roads, and even to

As I said, hi-performance vs. utility ;-)

.... reluctance
to accept vast expense and complication for minuscule speed advantage,
....

Me too. So just skip the whole tilting mechanic, go a bit slower and
enjoy the ride ;-)

I suspect that what makes the recumbent fanciers so rabidly angry at
my logical and rational dissemination of their obsession is their
....

There are actually many roads where you can ride well on a trike, just
think of the vast expanses of North America, or the middle-European
countryside. What actually produced such a vehement reaction to your
article is that it may be read as you wanting to condemn trikes. Which I
guess is not your intention?

I'm not against tadpole trikes on any engineering principle ....

Actually I think that human-powered trikes are still rather "new" in an
engieneering-kind of view. There is a lot of experience to gather, a lot
of experimentation and development still necessary. But this will need
time, time and time. It took 150 years to get bikes to be what they're
now...

Just as an example, many trikes come with a twist-shift on the
under-seat handlebars. In my oppinion, twist-shift on a bike just
doesn't work - you either have to have very strong little fingers or
change hand position. Racing-bike-style brifters might work fine, except
I doubt the cable-routing would be agreeable... Work to do ;-)

I would rather like to
have a tadpole, if a suitably comfortable and technically interesting
trike can be found. Nor do I force my opinion on anyone. I merely

I guess, self-building would be in order. As for your not forcing your
opinion, you do formulate it strongly - which is what people don't like
(as I see it) ;-)

Yes. I wrote to "someone" yesterday that my tilting design, having all
its forces resolved on the centreline, could be made into a tri or
quad cyclecar with a vertically disposed virtually two-dimensional
chassis weighing no more than a stiff diamond-frame. An entire car up
to one liter could be built to weigh in at 200kg. You won't get
leather seats and the air conditioning will be au naturel, but the
tilting will turn the narrow tyres (by car standards, fat by bike
standards, say Big Apple 60-622) necessary for weigh-control into a
huge roadholding advantage.

Sounds cool. Just build the prototype, test it (to work out the details)
and go into production. Since there is a huge run on cyclecars (with
wait times of a year or so), you'd sure sell a batch...

Or, if it doesn't offend you, write the manual and publish it - so
anyone can build it ;-)

But in real life, in rainy old Ireland and with the roads being
populated by people who are barely in control of their huge SUVs, if I
ever have to drive again, I'll probably try to find a low mileage

Check out Daihatsu, they have a nice range of cars. Don't expect
race-like performance, though ;-)

Ciao...

Hi,

Edward Dolan wrote:
Andre Jute is a crackpot. Can't you tell the type when you see it? He only
....

When I read his posts I see a lot of myself in them (at least myself
when I try to be self-critical). I do know that I've eaten wisdom by the
spoonful and that reality always warps to fit my view of it ;-) Oh,
actually, all people must bend to my opinion ;-) So what I write is
always well-thought-through and anybody who contradicts me is a
"crackpot" ;-)

It's just, it doesn't work that way - and I find that very hard to
accept. So I do try to allow for other people's opinion, even if it
contradicts mine. It's just very hard for me to put that in words, so I
may seem "militant" even if I don't mean to be.

If you get my meaning...

Andre Jute has all the coherency of the certifiably insane and he should be
in a lunatic asylum. His dumb ass is not even worth kicking.

Actually, I also see the same tendency in you, it's just you voice it
differently, so that it's much easier to accept your style than Andre's
- you just exaggerate while Andre doesn't. You often are funny, while
Andre stays earnest - and thus seems much more explicit than you do...

Again, if you get my meaning...

And most people here are old enough (and have a well-enough position in
life) to just express their opinion as it is, while I still have to
accept other people's ;-) In some years maybe I'll sound like one of
you? And get bashed by the other one ;-)

Live and let live ;-)

Ciao..

..

Bernhard Agthe wrote:
[...]
Just as an example, many trikes come with a twist-shift on the
under-seat handlebars. In my oppinion, twist-shift on a bike just
doesn't work - you either have to have very strong little fingers or
change hand position. Racing-bike-style brifters might work fine, except
I doubt the cable-routing would be agreeable... Work to do ;-)
[...]

I can operate both the brakes and the bar-end shifters on my trike
without changing hand position. Brifters on a trike - bah!

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Bernhard Agthe wrote:
Hi,

Edward Dolan wrote:
Andre Jute is a crackpot. Can't you tell the type when you see it? He
only
...

When I read his posts I see a lot of myself in them (at least myself
when I try to be self-critical). I do know that I've eaten wisdom by the
spoonful and that reality always warps to fit my view of it ;-) Oh,
actually, all people must bend to my opinion ;-) So what I write is
always well-thought-through and anybody who contradicts me is a
"crackpot" ;-)

It's just, it doesn't work that way - and I find that very hard to
accept. So I do try to allow for other people's opinion, even if it
contradicts mine. It's just very hard for me to put that in words, so I
may seem "militant" even if I don't mean to be.

If you get my meaning...

Andre Jute has all the coherency of the certifiably insane and he
should be in a lunatic asylum. His dumb ass is not even worth kicking.

Actually, I also see the same tendency in you, it's just you voice it
differently, so that it's much easier to accept your style than Andre's
- you just exaggerate while Andre doesn't. You often are funny, while
Andre stays earnest - and thus seems much more explicit than you do...

Again, if you get my meaning...

And most people here are old enough (and have a well-enough position in
life) to just express their opinion as it is, while I still have to
accept other people's ;-) In some years maybe I'll sound like one of
you? And get bashed by the other one ;-)

Mr. Jute makes up lies about people who disagree with him.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Hi,

Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
I can operate both the brakes and the bar-end shifters on my trike
without changing hand position. Brifters on a trike - bah!

Bar-end shifters are actually the only that work - as I see it. But then
you can't mount the mirror (at least not on the handlebars). Also, as
far as I know, there are no bar-end shifters for the DualDrive system,
at least not with the original SRAM derailleur.

Actually I can imagine Brifters to work (if the cable-routing is changed
accordingly) on a trike, but you still have to build them to fit the
dual-drive system and the different brake system...

You see, I've got the SRAM trigger shifters on my upright and they're
great (for me). But again, I cannot imagine mounting them on a trike
(apart from the impossible cable-routing). Brifters, especially the
nifty SRAM-racing ones, do seem to be a good idea...

That said, bar-end shifters are probably fine ;-)

Ciao...

..

Bernhard Agthe wrote:
Hi,

Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
I can operate both the brakes and the bar-end shifters on my trike
without changing hand position. Brifters on a trike - bah!

Bar-end shifters are actually the only that work - as I see it. But then
you can't mount the mirror (at least not on the handlebars).[...]

My trike has a mirror on the handlebars:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/1939609411/sizes/o/.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[[[whole lotta snips -- I think we understand the context between
us...]]]

Bernhard Agthe:
You can fit a trike (or any recumbent) with a fully-enclosed chain,
provided you have a hub gear shift. Just apply the "Hebie Chainglider"
and use the chain tubes (which are present, anyway) in between.

Andre Jute:
I don't know about the Hebie Chainglider, which is made with semi-
rigid connecting tubes rather firmly fitted, but the Utopia Country
chaincase on my Kranich is assembled in the manner you mention, held
together flexibly by four little lightweight bellows.
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/Andre%20Jute's%20Utopia%20Kranich.pdf
However, while a Chainglider is almost impossible to buy even in the
most popular sizes due to Hebie's marketing policies, and impossible
to buy in most of the catalogued sizes (and even then very limited as
to sprocket-bottom bracket distance), Utopia's Country chaincase
(available in an even more limited range of crank and sprocket sizes
but at least actually available to order and perfectly adaptable as to
length) is half the price of a cheap bike. The Utopia Country is also
built so much lighter, I expect the bellows to require replacement
every few years, but those are probably pretty cheap, as are the
straight tubes, all the cost being in the complicated crankwheel and
sprocket cases.

In any event, I just don't see a crank in front of the front axle
having a straight run to even hub gears at the back, so somewhere
there will be exposed idlers where the chain will pick up dirt Just
one open spot for dirt to get in negates the enclosure -- you may as
well not bother.

And
The links I described for creating a leaning trike are equal length

Bernard:
As I read this, you have a design complete and ready to build? Sounds good!

It's not. My first sketch design was 5ft/1520mm wide. I described in a
reply to Trevor how dangerous that would be on my favourite lanes --
too wide. I'd be in the ditch in the sowing, silage and harvest
seasons more often than I'd be on the road. Tilting is one way of
making a utility bike which is also narrow enough to be useful perform
acceptably. I'm thinking about this, but the truth is that unless the
lightbulb labelled Eureka flashes in my head with some novelty (see my
discussion with Trevor for some wild ideas), I won't be building a
trike that is betwixt and between, compromised so that it is neither
fast nor particularly usable on my roads. (At least not until I'm so
decrepit I need a narrow, pavement type tricycle, in which case the
need for speed might be a distant memory. Mind you, we have a guy
still running on our roads, so bent over his knuckles just about drag
the tarmac, with whom I had this exchange. Jute: "You will live to be
ninety, sir." Runner: "I'm over ninety already, sonny.")

See above; leaves unless very stiff indeed would have to be
accompanied by a rigid link (the radius stay, if brought in to the
centre line and made not too long might do double duty). The Dutch

Actually I do not see much reason for front
suspension, at least not when using reasonably ballon-ish tires. I'd
rather suspend the seat (and/or the rear wheel) than spend money for
front suspension. That's what my test-ride suggests...

Well now, that's a hard fact. I don't believe anyone has mentioned
that, though this thread has been going for about a week now. See, my
favourite independent suspension front and back is a three-dimensional
Watt linkage (three links, two longitudinal, one vertical, fixes
controls a rigid axle in three dimensions, much nicer and lighter than
a de Dion). So the tilting suspension is itself a compromise to make
up for not being able to use unlimited front track.

Tripod trikehttp://www.tripod-bikes.com/

Looks like the front beam is fixed and can only rotate to provide roll
for the trike. They don't seem to have front suspension, just leaning.

Very likely. But the black you can just see under that central fitting
may be a compressive or even a hydro-pneumatic (Moulton) springing
device giving the sort of small articulation that you're talking about
(as opposed to the massive lean I've been considering).

...cars don't tilt into
corners and they work well, so why shouldn't a bicycle? I'd only expect
a problem if the wheel is built too light ;-)

Cars have wide tyres. Cars have suspension links that try very hard to
keep the wheel upright (actually with very small angles in three
dimensions) under all circumstance, whereas the suspension on the
tilting bicycle is intended to do exactly the opposite, tilt a narrow,
round tyre to hell and gone.

****
I suspect that what makes the recumbent fanciers so rabidly angry at
my logical and rational dissemination of their obsession

What actually produced such a vehement reaction to your
article is that it may be read as you wanting to condemn trikes. Which I
guess is not your intention?

Nah, I'm just investigating. But even if, after going through the
logic, I want for some reason to condemn trikes, the reaction of these
clowns wouldn't delay me in the least. They're not on RBT for any
useful purpose; they're here for the sole purpose of being outraged.
I'm just an excuse; if I weren't here, they'd hound someone else;
check their history; they're bullying scum.

Just as an example, many trikes come with a twist-shift on the
under-seat handlebars. In my opinion, twist-shift on a bike just
doesn't work - you either have to have very strong little fingers or
change hand position.

Sock it to Rohloff and Shimano both! (I have no experience of the
others, but I bet they're as bad.)

Or, if it doesn't offend you, write the manual and publish it - so
anyone can build it ;-)

I do that all the time. See
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/
This thread is a multi-part manual working through the steps and
choices to a possible comfort tricycle. The result just doesn't fit on
my lanes... But it is always useful to design an ideal and then work
back from there so you can decide precisely how far you will
compromise for practicality.

Slante!

Andre Jute
Charisma is the art of infuriating the undeserving by merely
existing elegantly