"Riding roughshod -- Chainsaw-toting trail bike high-flyers cutting valley into mucky ribbons"

On Jun 1, 1:55 pm, "Wayne" wrote:

Ah hah! One of those parents!

You know what they say assumptions make, don't you? I'm not a parent
at all and don't know that I'll ever be one. If anything I'm one of
those kids, all grown up now.


So what's the difference?
1. The owner spent several thousand dollars every year getting the jumps
bulldozed down and the property levelled again.

I doubt this. Why would he spend money annually to keep a vacant lot
flat? Stands to reason they'd wait until they were ready to build,
and then the vacant lot would become a job site. A job site is not a
vacant lot, and things change.


2. There were at least two real estate sales that were cancelled in the
neighborhood because the gang was sighted when out of control

I'm calling bull again. Gang?!?! Kids on BMX bikes, building dirt
jumps hardly sounds like a gang. I'd go as far as to say riding BMX
all day is an alternative to gang-banging. I was on a BMX race team
growing up, we certainly were no gang. The guys sitting in a part of
the park with weapons and 40's claiming territory are gang-ish, and
I'd be willing to bet they and the BMX kids are not the same.


2. When they needed to take a ****, they didn't go home...they just ****ed
on the nearest fence.

Where do you live, Cape Cod? So what if a neighborhood kid ****es on
a fence?


3. If a kid had gotten hurt while on the property, the parents would have
certainly sued the owner.

Doubtful. Between myself and all the riders I hung with growing up,
we must have had 100 decent injuries between us. I'm good for quite a
few myself. None of us ever sued anyone. A simple "no trespassing"
sign is likely to take care of that liability anyway.


4. One of the neighbors had an elderly bedridden parent, whose bedroom
faced the noisiest part of the activities. The activites started daily
after school and continued until dark. On weekends, it started at about 7
AM and went to dark.

So the bedridden neighbor had to listen to the local kids play from
school's end to nightfall, or turn on a TV or radio? If I were
bedridden there's not much I'd rather be watching and hearing than
kids having fun. My team manager had a track in his back yard, and
his neighbors enjoyed watching us ride.


5. Several times they set the field on fire while smoking (legal and
illegal). And yes, this is fire country.

Several times, huh? Funny, all the riding & hanging out I've done
I've never seen a fire set. If they are setting fires that's an
entirely different issue, and not a result of kids riding bikes and
making dirt jumps.


6. I personally broke up a "fight club", and rendered first aid several
times. Once it required calling paramedics.

This is getting harder and harder to believe. Sure, kids fight, but
"fight club"? If it really were a "fight club" I'm sure they'd have
kept you from breaking it up.


7. The kids stole grocery carts, etc to use for jump supports, and left
trash all over the property. The trash blew all over the neighborhood.

What does this have to do with kids building dirt jumps and riding
BMX? Wouldn't kids on skateboards in the street have the same
potential for the same things? What do you suggest, keep all kids
penned up?


8. Misuse of the property by non-owners appears to give "permission by
example" to other non-owners. For example, your failure to set a good
example by joining them.

This part I agree with. So a few more kids see this and decide it
looks like more fun than drinking in the woods or smoking a joint and
playing video games all day and decide to join in. I see that as a
good thing.


Yes, it does matter. Just because you bought the toy, it doesn't give you
the right to use it on private property. And that's where the lawless
element comes from.

If they were building jumps on your lawn or riding through your garden
I'd understand. We're talking about a vacant lot!

Do me a favor, don't ever move to the country. People like you should
stay in the city, or better yet in your attended-gate country club
homes and neighborhoods. They're KIDS!!! for chr$@^% sake.

wrote:
On Jun 1, 12:56 pm, Devs wrote:
In message 6ZW7i.8$t84.2@trnddc04, Wayne
writes





I know how these guys get started. I live in the middle of a 100 year old
city, but had a vacant lot next door. One year, every day after school, a
hoard of shovel toting wheelie bikers would show up in the vacant lot and
build dirt jumps. When neighbors complained, they would tell us to f&%k
off. When the owner showed up, they would run. He finally called the cops,
but the way the lot was situated, there were escape routes to other streets,
and most were not caught. The ones caught were warned, the parents were
called, and the kids were back the next day. When I confronted one of them,
he asked why it mattered, because the property was vacant. He also said
that they didn't have any other choice, as there were so few vacant lots
available.
Most of these kids have now moved on to off road motorcycles in the desert.
In short, they were raised by parents who also had no respect for the
concept of private property, and view public property as open to anything.
Happily, the next door lot was graded smooth long enough for a house to be
built.
I agree. Kids should not be allowed to use redundant land to carry out
healthy pursuits. They should be made to sit in front of computers all
day, eat burgers until they are obese and do drugs out of boredom.
--
Devs
"Punchdown Pete the old Kroner"- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You forgot video games, candy, TV & cheap liquor.


You forgot contributing to teen pregnancy.

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jun 1, 1:55 pm, "Wayne" wrote:

Ah hah! One of those parents!

You know what they say assumptions make, don't you? I'm not a parent
at all and don't know that I'll ever be one. If anything I'm one of
those kids, all grown up now.


So what's the difference?
1. The owner spent several thousand dollars every year getting the jumps
bulldozed down and the property levelled again.

I doubt this. Why would he spend money annually to keep a vacant lot
flat? Stands to reason they'd wait until they were ready to build,
and then the vacant lot would become a job site. A job site is not a
vacant lot, and things change.


2. There were at least two real estate sales that were cancelled in the
neighborhood because the gang was sighted when out of control

I'm calling bull again. Gang?!?! Kids on BMX bikes, building dirt
jumps hardly sounds like a gang. I'd go as far as to say riding BMX
all day is an alternative to gang-banging. I was on a BMX race team
growing up, we certainly were no gang. The guys sitting in a part of
the park with weapons and 40's claiming territory are gang-ish, and
I'd be willing to bet they and the BMX kids are not the same.


2. When they needed to take a ****, they didn't go home...they just
****ed
on the nearest fence.

Where do you live, Cape Cod? So what if a neighborhood kid ****es on
a fence?


3. If a kid had gotten hurt while on the property, the parents would
have
certainly sued the owner.

Doubtful. Between myself and all the riders I hung with growing up,
we must have had 100 decent injuries between us. I'm good for quite a
few myself. None of us ever sued anyone. A simple "no trespassing"
sign is likely to take care of that liability anyway.


4. One of the neighbors had an elderly bedridden parent, whose bedroom
faced the noisiest part of the activities. The activites started daily
after school and continued until dark. On weekends, it started at about
7
AM and went to dark.

So the bedridden neighbor had to listen to the local kids play from
school's end to nightfall, or turn on a TV or radio? If I were
bedridden there's not much I'd rather be watching and hearing than
kids having fun. My team manager had a track in his back yard, and
his neighbors enjoyed watching us ride.


5. Several times they set the field on fire while smoking (legal and
illegal). And yes, this is fire country.

Several times, huh? Funny, all the riding & hanging out I've done
I've never seen a fire set. If they are setting fires that's an
entirely different issue, and not a result of kids riding bikes and
making dirt jumps.


6. I personally broke up a "fight club", and rendered first aid several
times. Once it required calling paramedics.

This is getting harder and harder to believe. Sure, kids fight, but
"fight club"? If it really were a "fight club" I'm sure they'd have
kept you from breaking it up.


7. The kids stole grocery carts, etc to use for jump supports, and left
trash all over the property. The trash blew all over the neighborhood.

What does this have to do with kids building dirt jumps and riding
BMX? Wouldn't kids on skateboards in the street have the same
potential for the same things? What do you suggest, keep all kids
penned up?


8. Misuse of the property by non-owners appears to give "permission by
example" to other non-owners. For example, your failure to set a good
example by joining them.

This part I agree with. So a few more kids see this and decide it
looks like more fun than drinking in the woods or smoking a joint and
playing video games all day and decide to join in. I see that as a
good thing.


Yes, it does matter. Just because you bought the toy, it doesn't give
you
the right to use it on private property. And that's where the lawless
element comes from.

If they were building jumps on your lawn or riding through your garden
I'd understand. We're talking about a vacant lot!

Do me a favor, don't ever move to the country. People like you should
stay in the city, or better yet in your attended-gate country club
homes and neighborhoods. They're KIDS!!! for chr$@^% sake.

Well, you have given me tooooo much to respond to, so I'll stick to a few
items.

The owner spent the bulldozing and cleanup money for two reasons. First,
his attorney advised him to not let the property become an "attractive
nuisance". Second, the city told him to clean it up. In return, he
eventually asked for police assistance, because he had a job and could not
monitor the property all day. Of course, that was a catch 22, because the
police were not going to monitor it either, and the kids took advantage of
that. He quit putting up no trespassing signs, because the kids tore them
down and used them for jump building material.

Rather than answering your comments one by one, let's cut to the chase.
Your statement, "If they were building jumps on your lawn or riding through
your garden
I'd understand. We're talking about a vacant lot!" gets right to the issue.

It doesn't matter if it was vacant or not. It belonged to a person who did
not want trespassers, and you don't seem to recognize his right. That is
the point of my original response: when adults disregard property rights,
kids follow their example.

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:31:14 GMT, "Wayne"
wrote:


"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
.. .
Sound familiar? It IS. These are typical mountain bikers in action....

Mike


http://www.nowtoronto.com/issues/200...ews_story.php:

"The city looks the other way while trail bike enthusiasts cut down
mature trees to construct daredevil jumps.
Photo By Darren Stehr"


Riding roughshod


Chainsaw-toting trail bike high-flyers cutting valley into mucky
ribbons

By KYLA DIXON-MUIR

At 52 hectares, about half the size of High Park, Crothers' Woods, a
small Carolinian Forest at the foot of the Leaside Bridge, is an
ecological rarity in these parts.

Signage erected at Beechwood Wetlands nearby warns walkers and birders
to tread softly. "Areas like the Lower Don Valley that have been
heavily disturbed by human activity are particularly susceptible to
the effects of invasive non-native species."

But despite being declared an ecologically sensitive area more than a
decade ago, Crothers is being sliced into mucky ribbons by trail bike
enthusiasts who think nothing of carting in chainsaws and cutting down
mature trees to build ramps for their daredevil jumps.

Illegally constructed stunts and jumps on the steep forest hillsides
of Crothers were torn down a few years ago, but the degradation,
including the excavation of huge ditches for jumps in the flats
between Crothers and Beechwood Wetlands, has continued at a breakneck
pace.

Large turnouts of 30-something male riders, a fixture at public
consultations in recent years, show little concern for preserving this
rare forest we're lucky to have this far north.

snip
I know how these guys get started. I live in the middle of a 100 year old
city, but had a vacant lot next door. One year, every day after school, a
hoard of shovel toting wheelie bikers would show up in the vacant lot and
build dirt jumps. When neighbors complained, they would tell us to f&%k
off. When the owner showed up, they would run. He finally called the cops,
but the way the lot was situated, there were escape routes to other streets,
and most were not caught. The ones caught were warned, the parents were
called, and the kids were back the next day. When I confronted one of them,
he asked why it mattered, because the property was vacant. He also said
that they didn't have any other choice, as there were so few vacant lots
available.

Most of these kids have now moved on to off road motorcycles in the desert.
In short, they were raised by parents who also had no respect for the
concept of private property, and view public property as open to anything.

Thanks for describing the typical mountain biker to a "T".
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 15:49:06 -0000, "
wrote:

On Jun 1, 11:31 am, "Wayne" wrote:
I know how these guys get started. I live in the middle of a 100 year old
city, but had a vacant lot next door. One year, every day after school, a
hoard of shovel toting wheelie bikers would show up in the vacant lot and
build dirt jumps. When neighbors complained, they would tell us to f&%k
off. When the owner showed up, they would run. He finally called the cops,
but the way the lot was situated, there were escape routes to other streets,
and most were not caught. The ones caught were warned, the parents were
called, and the kids were back the next day. When I confronted one of them,
he asked why it mattered, because the property was vacant. He also said
that they didn't have any other choice, as there were so few vacant lots
available.

Most of these kids have now moved on to off road motorcycles in the desert.
In short, they were raised by parents who also had no respect for the
concept of private property, and view public property as open to anything.
Happily, the next door lot was graded smooth long enough for a house to be
built.

What difference is it to you if the neighborhood kids are riding their
bike in an abandoned lot?

This is not "an abandoned lot", but wildlife habitat. I know, you
don't know the difference.

I'm an adult and if I were riding and saw
some jumps in an abandoned lot, I may take a couple hits depending
which bike I'm on. If I saw the kids building and jumping I'd stop
and watch. If some neighbor came over and "confronted" me, I'd likely
ask the same question they did - what does it matter to you? I can
empathize with their decesion to tell you to f@%! off.

If the kids in my neighborhood wanted to build a jump on a vacant lot,
I'd be willing to bet they'd want to borrow my shovels to do it. I'd
happily let them, and swing by the site on my BMX to take a couple
runs & watch them build & ride. I'd likely give them pointers on how
to build different styles of jumps.

Do you complain about the noise of a basketball bouncing when they
play ball also? Call the police if a baseball smashes your window
instead of talking with the kid and having them or their parents
replace the window?
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:55:23 GMT, "Wayne"
wrote:


wrote in message
roups.com...
On Jun 1, 11:31 am, "Wayne" wrote:
I know how these guys get started. I live in the middle of a 100 year
old
city, but had a vacant lot next door. One year, every day after school,
a
hoard of shovel toting wheelie bikers would show up in the vacant lot and
build dirt jumps. When neighbors complained, they would tell us to f&%k
off. When the owner showed up, they would run. He finally called the
cops,
but the way the lot was situated, there were escape routes to other
streets,
and most were not caught. The ones caught were warned, the parents were
called, and the kids were back the next day. When I confronted one of
them,
he asked why it mattered, because the property was vacant. He also said
that they didn't have any other choice, as there were so few vacant lots
available.

Most of these kids have now moved on to off road motorcycles in the
desert.
In short, they were raised by parents who also had no respect for the
concept of private property, and view public property as open to
anything.
Happily, the next door lot was graded smooth long enough for a house to
be
built.

What difference is it to you if the neighborhood kids are riding their
bike in an abandoned lot? I'm an adult and if I were riding and saw
some jumps in an abandoned lot, I may take a couple hits depending
which bike I'm on. If I saw the kids building and jumping I'd stop
and watch. If some neighbor came over and "confronted" me, I'd likely
ask the same question they did - what does it matter to you? I can
empathize with their decesion to tell you to f@%! off.

If the kids in my neighborhood wanted to build a jump on a vacant lot,
I'd be willing to bet they'd want to borrow my shovels to do it. I'd
happily let them, and swing by the site on my BMX to take a couple
runs & watch them build & ride. I'd likely give them pointers on how
to build different styles of jumps.

Do you complain about the noise of a basketball bouncing when they
play ball also? Call the police if a baseball smashes your window
instead of talking with the kid and having them or their parents
replace the window?

Ah hah! One of those parents! So what's the difference?
1. The owner spent several thousand dollars every year getting the jumps
bulldozed down and the property levelled again.
2. There were at least two real estate sales that were cancelled in the
neighborhood because the gang was sighted when out of control
2. When they needed to take a ****, they didn't go home...they just ****ed
on the nearest fence.
3. If a kid had gotten hurt while on the property, the parents would have
certainly sued the owner.
4. One of the neighbors had an elderly bedridden parent, whose bedroom
faced the noisiest part of the activities. The activites started daily
after school and continued until dark. On weekends, it started at about 7
AM and went to dark.
5. Several times they set the field on fire while smoking (legal and
illegal). And yes, this is fire country.
6. I personally broke up a "fight club", and rendered first aid several
times. Once it required calling paramedics.
7. The kids stole grocery carts, etc to use for jump supports, and left
trash all over the property. The trash blew all over the neighborhood.
8. Misuse of the property by non-owners appears to give "permission by
example" to other non-owners. For example, your failure to set a good
example by joining them.

Yes, it does matter. Just because you bought the toy, it doesn't give you
the right to use it on private property.

AMEN.

And that's where the lawless
element comes from.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 18:26:12 -0000, "
wrote:

On Jun 1, 1:55 pm, "Wayne" wrote:

Ah hah! One of those parents!

You know what they say assumptions make, don't you? I'm not a parent
at all and don't know that I'll ever be one. If anything I'm one of
those kids, all grown up now.


So what's the difference?
1. The owner spent several thousand dollars every year getting the jumps
bulldozed down and the property levelled again.

I doubt this. Why would he spend money annually to keep a vacant lot
flat? Stands to reason they'd wait until they were ready to build,
and then the vacant lot would become a job site. A job site is not a
vacant lot, and things change.


2. There were at least two real estate sales that were cancelled in the
neighborhood because the gang was sighted when out of control

I'm calling bull again. Gang?!?! Kids on BMX bikes, building dirt
jumps hardly sounds like a gang. I'd go as far as to say riding BMX
all day is an alternative to gang-banging. I was on a BMX race team
growing up, we certainly were no gang. The guys sitting in a part of
the park with weapons and 40's claiming territory are gang-ish, and
I'd be willing to bet they and the BMX kids are not the same.


2. When they needed to take a ****, they didn't go home...they just ****ed
on the nearest fence.

Where do you live, Cape Cod? So what if a neighborhood kid ****es on
a fence?


3. If a kid had gotten hurt while on the property, the parents would have
certainly sued the owner.

Doubtful. Between myself and all the riders I hung with growing up,
we must have had 100 decent injuries between us. I'm good for quite a
few myself. None of us ever sued anyone. A simple "no trespassing"
sign is likely to take care of that liability anyway.


4. One of the neighbors had an elderly bedridden parent, whose bedroom
faced the noisiest part of the activities. The activites started daily
after school and continued until dark. On weekends, it started at about 7
AM and went to dark.

So the bedridden neighbor had to listen to the local kids play from
school's end to nightfall, or turn on a TV or radio? If I were
bedridden there's not much I'd rather be watching and hearing than
kids having fun. My team manager had a track in his back yard, and
his neighbors enjoyed watching us ride.


5. Several times they set the field on fire while smoking (legal and
illegal). And yes, this is fire country.

Several times, huh? Funny, all the riding & hanging out I've done
I've never seen a fire set. If they are setting fires that's an
entirely different issue, and not a result of kids riding bikes and
making dirt jumps.


6. I personally broke up a "fight club", and rendered first aid several
times. Once it required calling paramedics.

This is getting harder and harder to believe. Sure, kids fight, but
"fight club"? If it really were a "fight club" I'm sure they'd have
kept you from breaking it up.


7. The kids stole grocery carts, etc to use for jump supports, and left
trash all over the property. The trash blew all over the neighborhood.

What does this have to do with kids building dirt jumps and riding
BMX? Wouldn't kids on skateboards in the street have the same
potential for the same things? What do you suggest, keep all kids
penned up?


8. Misuse of the property by non-owners appears to give "permission by
example" to other non-owners. For example, your failure to set a good
example by joining them.

This part I agree with. So a few more kids see this and decide it
looks like more fun than drinking in the woods or smoking a joint and
playing video games all day and decide to join in. I see that as a
good thing.


Yes, it does matter. Just because you bought the toy, it doesn't give you
the right to use it on private property. And that's where the lawless
element comes from.

If they were building jumps on your lawn or riding through your garden
I'd understand. We're talking about a vacant lot!

Typical mountain biker: you think that all land belongs to humans, and
that it doesn't matter what happens to it. It's wildlife habitat. It's
not "vacant".

Do me a favor, don't ever move to the country. People like you should
stay in the city, or better yet in your attended-gate country club
homes and neighborhoods. They're KIDS!!! for chr$@^% sake.


--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:56:01 +0100, Devs
wrote:

In message 6ZW7i.8$t84.2@trnddc04, Wayne
writes
I know how these guys get started. I live in the middle of a 100 year old
city, but had a vacant lot next door. One year, every day after school, a
hoard of shovel toting wheelie bikers would show up in the vacant lot and
build dirt jumps. When neighbors complained, they would tell us to f&%k
off. When the owner showed up, they would run. He finally called the cops,
but the way the lot was situated, there were escape routes to other streets,
and most were not caught. The ones caught were warned, the parents were
called, and the kids were back the next day. When I confronted one of them,
he asked why it mattered, because the property was vacant. He also said
that they didn't have any other choice, as there were so few vacant lots
available.

Most of these kids have now moved on to off road motorcycles in the desert.
In short, they were raised by parents who also had no respect for the
concept of private property, and view public property as open to anything.
Happily, the next door lot was graded smooth long enough for a house to be
built.

I agree. Kids should not be allowed to use redundant land to carry out
healthy pursuits. They should be made to sit in front of computers all
day, eat burgers until they are obese and do drugs out of boredom.

There are other choices, you know. DUH! Such as walking. Heard of it?
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
...
Sound familiar? It IS. These are typical mountain bikers in action....

Mike





First, the article is about motorcycle riders not bicycle riders.

Second, if the assertions made inthe article are accurate -- I have no idea
if they are accurate or not -- then there is a huge police problem here that
needs to be addressed.

Third, if there is a police problem that is not being addressed, then go to
the city council.


From where I sit, it appears that all of the policy pieces are in place to
control this sort of thing, but the policy is not being properly applied.
This assumes that the assertions made are accurate, and not another example
of reporting bias that reveals an agenda.