Red light cameras?

T0m Sherm4n wrote:

Of course, if one lives in a civilized place, traffic is never dense
enough to "block the box".

I think you mean a place that has not yet been civilized, or one that
once was civilized but has since become derelict and abandoned.

On 04/24/2011 12:25 PM, raamman wrote:
On Apr 24, 11:53 am, Dan wrote:
On Apr 24, 4:59 am, Nate wrote:





On 04/24/2011 04:43 AM, Jym Dyer wrote:

It's not legal to be *in* an intersection on red; only
to *enter* on red.

=v= Totally wrong.

no, I am in fact correct.

=v= A yellow light means stop, unless it is unsafe to do so.
This law is pretty much universally ignored.

that's not law, but it is a good practice. Yellow simply means "there's
a red light going to happen soon" and entering an intersection on red is
quite illegal everywhere.

It is illegal to enter the intersection on yellow unless you are too
close to stop, in which case you should absolutely clear before red.-

not illegal, merely inadvisable. (with one exception, as I said before
- I think it's Louisiana, but I haven't bothered to look it up yet.)


but that is precisely why we are having this debate- there appears to
be a remarkable number of locations where the yellow light does not
provide for adequate warning of the red light. Further, because a
posted maximum speed is such it does not mean traffic is going at that
speed, and there seems to be no allowance for that either.

exactly.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 04/24/2011 12:26 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Phil W Lee:
Amber - Stop if you safely can.

I think "Safely" could be a departure point for some reasonable
arguments.

If I see a yellow light, my reflex is to take my foot off the gas
and look in the rear view mirror.

If there's nothing there, I continue the sequence and apply the
brakes.

OTOH, if there's somebody there, I have to make the decision as
to whether they expect me to brake or not.

Dangerous situations arise when somebody feels constrained to
stand on the brakes as soon as they see a yellow light - and that
constraint would, IMHO, be introduced for a lot of drivers once
they know cameras are in place.... and especially once somebody
starts shortening the yellow light times.


Which is actually born out by the increase in rear-end incidents at
intersections where RLCs have been installed. At some level, it doesn't
even matter if there's a short yellow or not - if there's a sign that
says "red light camera enforced" or similar, savvy drivers will *expect*
the yellow interval to be unusually short.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Apr 24, 9:25 am, raamman wrote:
On Apr 24, 11:53 am, Dan O wrote:



On Apr 24, 4:59 am, Nate Nagel wrote:

On 04/24/2011 04:43 AM, Jym Dyer wrote:

It's not legal to be *in* an intersection on red; only
to *enter* on red.

=v= Totally wrong.

no, I am in fact correct.

=v= A yellow light means stop, unless it is unsafe to do so.
This law is pretty much universally ignored.

that's not law, but it is a good practice. Yellow simply means "there's
a red light going to happen soon" and entering an intersection on red is
quite illegal everywhere.

It is illegal to enter the intersection on yellow unless you are too
close to stop, in which case you should absolutely clear before red.-

but that is precisely why we are having this debate- there appears to
be a remarkable number of locations where the yellow light does not
provide for adequate warning of the red light. Further, because a
posted maximum speed is such it does not mean traffic is going at that
speed, and there seems to be no allowance for that either.

Yeah - short yellows are wrong, but at the same time long yellows
*plus* the attitude that yellow means step on it only adds to the
problem of cars blowing stops.

Also, I have to admit to what may seem a screwy perspective on the
whole business of traffic controls (Dan gets ready to be blasted for
what he's about to say... )

On my bike the colored lights only serve as cues to tell me what other
traffic in the area is apt to do. What *I* do is more a matter of
ground conditions and what other traffic actually *is* doing.

But I'd think things like red light cameras would tend to have an
overall cautioning effect on drivers.

On 4/24/2011 12:04 PM, Çhâlõ Çólîñã wrote:
T0m Sherm4n wrote:

Of course, if one lives in a civilized place, traffic is never dense
enough to "block the box".

I think you mean a place that has not yet been civilized, or one that
once was civilized but has since become derelict and abandoned.

Overcrowding leads to a decline in civility, as can be seen by visiting
any large city.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 4/24/2011 12:09 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 04/24/2011 12:26 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Phil W Lee:
Amber - Stop if you safely can.

I think "Safely" could be a departure point for some reasonable
arguments.

If I see a yellow light, my reflex is to take my foot off the gas
and look in the rear view mirror.

If there's nothing there, I continue the sequence and apply the
brakes.

OTOH, if there's somebody there, I have to make the decision as
to whether they expect me to brake or not.

Dangerous situations arise when somebody feels constrained to
stand on the brakes as soon as they see a yellow light - and that
constraint would, IMHO, be introduced for a lot of drivers once
they know cameras are in place.... and especially once somebody
starts shortening the yellow light times.


Which is actually born out by the increase in rear-end incidents at
intersections where RLCs have been installed. At some level, it doesn't
even matter if there's a short yellow or not - if there's a sign that
says "red light camera enforced" or similar, savvy drivers will *expect*
the yellow interval to be unusually short.

Who cares about safety, when profits are at stake?

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Per raamman:
Further, because a
posted maximum speed is such it does not mean traffic is going at that
speed, and there seems to be no allowance for that either.

Always seemed to me like the ones exceeding the limit get cut a
little slack when the light changes.

Assuming the lite changes to yellow at some point just as they
are approaching the intersection, but too late to stop
gracefully, the faster they're going, the less chance they will
get caught by the red before they clear the intersection.

Am I missing something there?
--
PeteCresswell

On Apr 24, 12:26*pm, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:
Per Phil W Lee:

Amber - Stop if you safely can.

I think "Safely" could be a departure point for some reasonable
arguments.

If I see a yellow light, my reflex is to take my foot off the gas
and look in the rear view mirror.

If there's nothing there, I continue the sequence and apply the
brakes.

OTOH, if there's somebody there, I have to make the decision as
to whether they expect me to brake or not.

Dangerous situations arise when somebody feels constrained to
stand on the brakes as soon as they see a yellow light - and that
constraint would, IMHO, be introduced for a lot of drivers once
they know cameras are in place.... and especially once somebody
starts shortening the yellow light times.

Seems to me that danger in that situation is caused by the guy in
back. One should maintain a two second gap, which should give plenty
of stopping distance unless the guy in back is on his cell phone etc.
I have absolutely no sympathy for tailgaters or distracted drivers.

- Frank Krygowski

On Apr 24, 12:01*pm, Chalo wrote:
Jym Dyer wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:

It's not legal to be *in* an intersection on red; only
to *enter* on red.

=v= Totally wrong.

It's not only legal to enter an intersection on a yellow light, it's
one of a cyclist's best tools for coping with short yellow lights,
wide multilane streets to cross, traffic congestion. or lights that
are timed for higher speeds. *At least here in Texas, you are in the
clear if you're all the way into the intersection when the red light
comes on.

Then even if you're pulling a trailer full of groceries uphill and
there are two parking lanes, six travel lanes, and a wide turn lane
you have to get across, all you have to do is get into the
intersection in time.

Chalo

how far down the street to work a legal crossing from the 9 lane
intersection ? there's a law for this otherwise chaos would ensue. or
is that otherwise ensue would be chaos ?

Frank Krygowski writes:

On Apr 24, 12:26Â*pm, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:
Dangerous situations arise when somebody feels constrained to
stand on the brakes as soon as they see a yellow light - and that
constraint would, IMHO, be introduced for a lot of drivers once
they know cameras are in place.... and especially once somebody
starts shortening the yellow light times.

Seems to me that danger in that situation is caused by the guy in
back. One should maintain a two second gap, which should give plenty
of stopping distance unless the guy in back is on his cell phone etc.
I have absolutely no sympathy for tailgaters or distracted drivers.

It's not just the tailgater or the distracted driver who suffers
in such a situation, though.
--
Ben Pfaff
http://benpfaff.org