Radial Spoking Pattern?

Building up a just for fun funny bike with a carbon fibre covered rear wheel and a semi-aero rim radial spoked front wheel.

Is there much difference in strength of a radially laced wheel if the spke heads are on the inside of the hub flange as opposed to being on the outside of the hub flange? I figure that the inside the flange spke heads give a bit more bracing angle to the spokes and thus a wheel with the spoke heads on the inside of the hub flange would be a bit stronger? Is this a correct assumption? Is there any advantage to lacing a radial wheel with the spoke heads on the outside of the hub flange - such as possibly more aerodynamic?

Thanks and cheers

On Oct 15, 7:03*pm, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Building up a just for fun funny bike with a carbon fibre covered rear wheel and a semi-aero rim radial spoked front wheel.

Is there much difference in strength of a radially laced wheel if the spke heads are on the inside of the hub flange as opposed to being on the outside of the hub flange? I figure that the inside the flange spke heads give a bit more bracing angle to the spokes and thus a wheel with the spoke heads on the inside of the hub flange would be a bit stronger? Is this a correct assumption? Is there any advantage to lacing a radial wheel with the spoke heads on the outside of the hub flange - such as possibly more aerodynamic?

Thanks and cheers

It's obviously better. ;-)


ahem ahem

On 16/10/12 05:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Building up a just for fun funny bike with a carbon fibre covered
rear wheel and a semi-aero rim radial spoked front wheel.

Is there much difference in strength of a radially laced wheel if the
spke heads are on the inside of the hub flange as opposed to being on
the outside of the hub flange? I figure that the inside the flange
spke heads give a bit more bracing angle to the spokes and thus a
wheel with the spoke heads on the inside of the hub flange would be a
bit stronger? Is this a correct assumption? Is there any advantage to
lacing a radial wheel with the spoke heads on the outside of the hub
flange - such as possibly more aerodynamic?

Thanks and cheers


http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

"10. Are radial wheels stiffer elbows in or out? How much?

Because the bracing angle is increased, radial wheels are about 13%
stiffer elbows out, all else equal."

More aero? Well, maybe, just slightly, a fraction.

Less spokes is more aero. Provided the rim is adequately strong, 16
spokes in the front wheel seem to hold me up on sealed roads around
here. I haven't tried on rough roads, and as always, YMMV.

--
JS

On Oct 15, 4:42*pm, James wrote:
On 16/10/12 05:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Building up a just for fun funny bike with a carbon fibre covered
rear wheel and a semi-aero rim radial spoked front wheel.

Is there much difference in strength of a radially laced wheel if the
spke heads are on the inside of the hub flange as opposed to being on
the outside of the hub flange? I figure that the inside the flange
spke heads give a bit more bracing angle to the spokes and thus a
wheel with the spoke heads on the inside of the hub flange would be a
bit stronger? Is this a correct assumption? Is there any advantage to
lacing a radial wheel with the spoke heads on the outside of the hub
flange - such as possibly more aerodynamic?

Thanks and cheers

http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

"10. Are radial wheels stiffer elbows in or out? How much?

Because the bracing angle is increased, radial wheels are about 13%
stiffer elbows out, all else equal."

But the question was about strength, not stiffness. From that site:
"This test measures lateral stiffness alone. It does not include the
radial load all wheels see in use. It does not measure radial
stiffness, nor strength of any kind."

Still, I'd expect a little increase in strength, again because of that
difference in bracing angle. I'd also expect it wouldn't be critical
- but then, I've never broken a front spoke except on a tandem,
maneuvering at super-low speed in a parking lot.

More aero? *Well, maybe, just slightly, a fraction.

Sounds reasonable. I wonder if it would be detectable.

- Frank Krygowski

On 16/10/12 11:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Oct 15, 4:42 pm, James wrote:
On 16/10/12 05:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Building up a just for fun funny bike with a carbon fibre covered
rear wheel and a semi-aero rim radial spoked front wheel.

Is there much difference in strength of a radially laced wheel if the
spke heads are on the inside of the hub flange as opposed to being on
the outside of the hub flange? I figure that the inside the flange
spke heads give a bit more bracing angle to the spokes and thus a
wheel with the spoke heads on the inside of the hub flange would be a
bit stronger? Is this a correct assumption? Is there any advantage to
lacing a radial wheel with the spoke heads on the outside of the hub
flange - such as possibly more aerodynamic?

Thanks and cheers

http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

"10. Are radial wheels stiffer elbows in or out? How much?

Because the bracing angle is increased, radial wheels are about 13%
stiffer elbows out, all else equal."

But the question was about strength, not stiffness. From that site:
"This test measures lateral stiffness alone. It does not include the
radial load all wheels see in use. It does not measure radial
stiffness, nor strength of any kind."

Oops - my bad. Though when people talk bracing angle (and this type of
question), it usually is in reference to lateral stiffness rather than
strength.

Also the direction of the assumed increase in strength is not
identified. Are we talking lateral strength? If so, would you prefer a
nipple to pull through the rim or the spoke to break?

It might be better to put elbows in and reduce the bracing angle so that
the rim deflects and spreads the load over more spokes. Held to rigid
and the structure may actually be weaker.

So many variables, so little time to analyse.

--
JS.

On Oct 15, 5:52*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Oct 15, 4:42*pm, James wrote:









On 16/10/12 05:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Building up a just for fun funny bike with a carbon fibre covered
rear wheel and a semi-aero rim radial spoked front wheel.

Is there much difference in strength of a radially laced wheel if the
spke heads are on the inside of the hub flange as opposed to being on
the outside of the hub flange? I figure that the inside the flange
spke heads give a bit more bracing angle to the spokes and thus a
wheel with the spoke heads on the inside of the hub flange would be a
bit stronger? Is this a correct assumption? Is there any advantage to
lacing a radial wheel with the spoke heads on the outside of the hub
flange - such as possibly more aerodynamic?

Thanks and cheers

http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

"10. Are radial wheels stiffer elbows in or out? How much?

Because the bracing angle is increased, radial wheels are about 13%
stiffer elbows out, all else equal."

But the question was about strength, not stiffness. *From that site:
"This test measures lateral stiffness alone. It does not include the
radial load all wheels see in use. It does not measure radial
stiffness, nor strength of any kind."

Still, I'd expect a little increase in strength, again because of that
difference in bracing angle. *I'd also expect it wouldn't be critical
- but then, I've never broken a front spoke except on a tandem,
maneuvering at super-low speed in a parking lot.

More aero? *Well, maybe, just slightly, a fraction.

Sounds reasonable. *I wonder if it would be detectable.

I've broken front spokes -- a whole bunch in one wheel that I bought
pre-built from a reputable seller. It must have been a bad batch, and
might have been when DT changed its bend. I've broken a few others in
my own wheels, even after magical spoke squeezing per Jobst -- some in
a disk brake wheel. I am trying to make more of an effort to correct
spoke line these days since many modern rims have practically no
offset, and you get a pretty hard angle going in to the rim.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 16/10/12 12:27, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Oct 15, 5:52 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Oct 15, 4:42 pm, James wrote:









On 16/10/12 05:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Building up a just for fun funny bike with a carbon fibre covered
rear wheel and a semi-aero rim radial spoked front wheel.

Is there much difference in strength of a radially laced wheel if the
spke heads are on the inside of the hub flange as opposed to being on
the outside of the hub flange? I figure that the inside the flange
spke heads give a bit more bracing angle to the spokes and thus a
wheel with the spoke heads on the inside of the hub flange would be a
bit stronger? Is this a correct assumption? Is there any advantage to
lacing a radial wheel with the spoke heads on the outside of the hub
flange - such as possibly more aerodynamic?

Thanks and cheers

http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

"10. Are radial wheels stiffer elbows in or out? How much?

Because the bracing angle is increased, radial wheels are about 13%
stiffer elbows out, all else equal."

But the question was about strength, not stiffness. From that site:
"This test measures lateral stiffness alone. It does not include the
radial load all wheels see in use. It does not measure radial
stiffness, nor strength of any kind."

Still, I'd expect a little increase in strength, again because of that
difference in bracing angle. I'd also expect it wouldn't be critical
- but then, I've never broken a front spoke except on a tandem,
maneuvering at super-low speed in a parking lot.

More aero? Well, maybe, just slightly, a fraction.

Sounds reasonable. I wonder if it would be detectable.

I've broken front spokes -- a whole bunch in one wheel that I bought
pre-built from a reputable seller. It must have been a bad batch, and
might have been when DT changed its bend. I've broken a few others in
my own wheels, even after magical spoke squeezing per Jobst -- some in
a disk brake wheel. I am trying to make more of an effort to correct
spoke line these days since many modern rims have practically no
offset, and you get a pretty hard angle going in to the rim.


This is a problem. I've had a spoke break at the threaded end not so
long ago, I suspect because the nipple is held too straight and not
allowed to point toward the spoke. The spoke broke about 3-4 turns from
where the threads start.

I wondered about shoving a dremel tool in the spoke hole and making it
aim more in the right direction.

--
JS.

On Oct 15, 7:27*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Oct 15, 5:52*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:









On Oct 15, 4:42*pm, James wrote:

On 16/10/12 05:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Building up a just for fun funny bike with a carbon fibre covered
rear wheel and a semi-aero rim radial spoked front wheel.

Is there much difference in strength of a radially laced wheel if the
spke heads are on the inside of the hub flange as opposed to being on
the outside of the hub flange? I figure that the inside the flange
spke heads give a bit more bracing angle to the spokes and thus a
wheel with the spoke heads on the inside of the hub flange would be a
bit stronger? Is this a correct assumption? Is there any advantage to
lacing a radial wheel with the spoke heads on the outside of the hub
flange - such as possibly more aerodynamic?

Thanks and cheers

http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

"10. Are radial wheels stiffer elbows in or out? How much?

Because the bracing angle is increased, radial wheels are about 13%
stiffer elbows out, all else equal."

But the question was about strength, not stiffness. *From that site:
"This test measures lateral stiffness alone. It does not include the
radial load all wheels see in use. It does not measure radial
stiffness, nor strength of any kind."

Still, I'd expect a little increase in strength, again because of that
difference in bracing angle. *I'd also expect it wouldn't be critical
- but then, I've never broken a front spoke except on a tandem,
maneuvering at super-low speed in a parking lot.

More aero? *Well, maybe, just slightly, a fraction.

Sounds reasonable. *I wonder if it would be detectable.

I've broken front spokes -- a whole bunch in one wheel that I bought
pre-built from a reputable seller. *It must have been a bad batch, and
might have been when DT changed its bend. *I've broken a few others in
my own wheels, even after magical spoke squeezing per Jobst -- some in
a disk brake wheel. I am trying to make more of an effort to correct
spoke line these days since many modern rims have practically no
offset, *and you get a pretty hard angle going in to the rim.

-- Jay Beattie.

And going back to the OP's question, a potential disadvantage of
"heads in" is that the spoke usually has to bend some at the hub end
to "wrap around" the hub flange to aim straight toward the rim.
Although some hubs have flanges with an outer wall which tapers in
thickness toward the flange edge to allow a much straighter and
unstressed path. And that may also cause unnecessary bending stress on
the hub flange, although I am not suggesting that the flange is thus
in danger of immediate collapse.

And, in contrast, "heads out" spokes aim very naturally toward the rim
even before being tensioned.
DR

On Oct 15, 7:59*pm, James wrote:
On 16/10/12 12:27, Jay Beattie wrote:









On Oct 15, 5:52 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Oct 15, 4:42 pm, James wrote:

On 16/10/12 05:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Building up a just for fun funny bike with a carbon fibre covered
rear wheel and a semi-aero rim radial spoked front wheel.

Is there much difference in strength of a radially laced wheel if the
spke heads are on the inside of the hub flange as opposed to being on
the outside of the hub flange? I figure that the inside the flange
spke heads give a bit more bracing angle to the spokes and thus a
wheel with the spoke heads on the inside of the hub flange would be a
bit stronger? Is this a correct assumption? Is there any advantage to
lacing a radial wheel with the spoke heads on the outside of the hub
flange - such as possibly more aerodynamic?

Thanks and cheers

http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

"10. Are radial wheels stiffer elbows in or out? How much?

Because the bracing angle is increased, radial wheels are about 13%
stiffer elbows out, all else equal."

But the question was about strength, not stiffness. *From that site:
"This test measures lateral stiffness alone. It does not include the
radial load all wheels see in use. It does not measure radial
stiffness, nor strength of any kind."

Still, I'd expect a little increase in strength, again because of that
difference in bracing angle. *I'd also expect it wouldn't be critical
- but then, I've never broken a front spoke except on a tandem,
maneuvering at super-low speed in a parking lot.

More aero? *Well, maybe, just slightly, a fraction.

Sounds reasonable. *I wonder if it would be detectable.

I've broken front spokes -- a whole bunch in one wheel that I bought
pre-built from a reputable seller. *It must have been a bad batch, and
might have been when DT changed its bend. *I've broken a few others in
my own wheels, even after magical spoke squeezing per Jobst -- some in
a disk brake wheel. I am trying to make more of an effort to correct
spoke line these days since many modern rims have practically no
offset, *and you get a pretty hard angle going in to the rim.

This is a problem. *I've had a spoke break at the threaded end not so
long ago, I suspect because the nipple is held too straight and not
allowed to point toward the spoke. *The spoke broke about 3-4 turns from
where the threads start.

I wondered about shoving a dremel tool in the spoke hole and making it
aim more in the right direction.

That is a problem that appears in regard to some carbon rims that have
a very thick spoke bed and spoke holes that are very straight and
narrow.
I wonder if, in an aluminum rim, a partial solution would be to use
nipples having a head with a hemispherical rather than a conical
surface. "Polyax" is one brand name used by Sapim. http://www.sapim.be/nipples/brass/polyax
I have never used them but the concept makes a lot of sense.
DR

On Oct 16, 1:52*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Oct 15, 4:42*pm, James wrote:









On 16/10/12 05:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Building up a just for fun funny bike with a carbon fibre covered
rear wheel and a semi-aero rim radial spoked front wheel.

Is there much difference in strength of a radially laced wheel if the
spke heads are on the inside of the hub flange as opposed to being on
the outside of the hub flange? I figure that the inside the flange
spke heads give a bit more bracing angle to the spokes and thus a
wheel with the spoke heads on the inside of the hub flange would be a
bit stronger? Is this a correct assumption? Is there any advantage to
lacing a radial wheel with the spoke heads on the outside of the hub
flange - such as possibly more aerodynamic?

Thanks and cheers

http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

"10. Are radial wheels stiffer elbows in or out? How much?

Because the bracing angle is increased, radial wheels are about 13%
stiffer elbows out, all else equal."

But the question was about strength, not stiffness. *From that site:
"This test measures lateral stiffness alone. It does not include the
radial load all wheels see in use. It does not measure radial
stiffness, nor strength of any kind."

The question may be about strength, but it is generally irrelevant,
toughness and stability being the primary requirements. If it was
anything other than a piece of art (poorly executed) I'd suggest that
a radial-spoked wheel is inappropriate, particularly if one might need
to use the front brake.


Still, I'd expect a little increase in strength, again because of that
difference in bracing angle. *I'd also expect it wouldn't be critical
- but then, I've never broken a front spoke except on a tandem,
maneuvering at super-low speed in a parking lot.

Had you tested the spokes were all intact before riding in the parking
lot?


More aero? *Well, maybe, just slightly, a fraction.

Sounds reasonable. *I wonder if it would be detectable.

- Frank Krygowski