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Making America into Amsterdam



 
 
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  #101  
Old July 4th 18, 09:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 2018-07-04 12:29, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/4/2018 10:10 AM, Joerg wrote:
When cyclists pick a pub or restaurant in this area they generally
prefer those near bike paths. Most cyclists have sufficient disposable
income so they don't just order a Budweiser and chips.


There are times when proximity to a bike path can improve things for a
business. That's also true of proximity to any other kind of park - and
again, most bike paths are really just linear parks.

But don't over-generalize. That doesn't mean that a bike path will
generate economic prosperity along most of its length. We have two main
rail-trail bike paths in my area, one about 10 miles long, the other
about 75 miles long. The short one has not had any detectable economic
effect. There's one bar and one convenience shop along its route, both
within a little village. I've seen no evidence that cyclists comprise
even a tiny percentage of their patrons.


Then check out Folsom and Rancho Cordova in California. Heckle Ale House
in Folsom even gives cyclists a 10% discount.

http://visitfolsom.com/attraction/he...se-and-eatery/

Yesterday as I was sipping a Pilsener at Fort Rock Brewing I got to chat
with the guy next to me. Sure enough he was there on his MTB.


The longer path passes through nine municipalities worthy of the name.
One has a bike shop that might not be there without the path. Another
has a coffee shop. It used to have a bike shop next door, but that bike
shop moved to a busier commercial location and is doing much better. The
two largest cities that the path passes through show absolutely zero
commercial benefit.

Cyclist mode share will always be a drop in the bucket in America. The
question is whether that drop is worthwhile and from me that gets an
enthusiastic yes.


Yes, we know that _you_ believe this. But your personal beliefs don't
justify spending millions of dollars, especially on projects with
questionable design - which applies to most of the bike facilities
currently being touted.


Folsom sure has smart leaders who understand the benefits of bike paths.
The result is a bustling business scene and home values that reflect the
desire of people wanting to move there. I personally met several people
who bought a house in Folsom because of the Willow Creek bike path
system which connects to the larger systems in the area.

By now it doesn't even matter much where in Folsom you buy an house.
They have a rule that every new development must have bike facilities.
If large enough it must be class I for the main thoroughfares. In any
case it must connect to the system. The developer is responsible for
making that happen or they won't get permits.

--
Gruesse, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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  #102  
Old July 4th 18, 09:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 7/4/2018 9:13 AM, jbeattie wrote:

The issue was whether separated bicycle facilities have any effect on the economy, which is probably "no." Building better roads and highways has a far greater impact on the economy because bikes are not used to move significant cargo including all the Chinese brake pads you buy from FleaBay and that are delivered by UPS or USPS.


The idea that the economy is dependent on moving cargo around might have
been valid 50 years ago. It's now more of a service economy. Cyclists
eat more restaurant food. Cyclists drink more alcohol.
  #103  
Old July 4th 18, 10:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 275
Default Making America into Amsterdam

I've cycled from Amsterdam to Paris and back several times, and the biggest problem I had with Dutch bike paths was that the signs would say the path went through to a certain town, but it did not, and you came to a dead end about 5 miles out and had to turn around. That is because it is cheaper for the government to promise the bike paths in its master plan than it is to actually build them.

Of course most of the bike paths in Holland are just fine, and go where they claim to go, so I learned which ones they were and used them.

So I say, when in Amsterdam don't necessarily let the government force you onto a bike path, and consider riding on the road instead (unless you're sure the bike path is actually complete).
  #104  
Old July 4th 18, 10:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 7/4/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:

P.S.: My wife and I are good examples. We'd go out a lot more often for
lunch/dinner if it was possible to walk there safely. I just will not
have a couple of beers and get behind the wheel because that's not safe.
It is also not safe to walk a dark road on the fog line at night.
Therefore, we generally invite people to our house instead and barbecue.
While living in Europe we went out much more because we could walk to
all the places.

Considering that restaurants these days aren't exactly rolling in dough
that would be important for the economy.


True. When I had a significant other in San Francisco we rarely cooked.
Lots of good cheap ethnic food within walking distance. When we go on
rides now, we stop at restaurants that are convenient to the bicycle routes.
  #105  
Old July 4th 18, 10:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 1:06:03 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-04 12:29, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/4/2018 10:10 AM, Joerg wrote:
When cyclists pick a pub or restaurant in this area they generally
prefer those near bike paths. Most cyclists have sufficient disposable
income so they don't just order a Budweiser and chips.


There are times when proximity to a bike path can improve things for a
business. That's also true of proximity to any other kind of park - and
again, most bike paths are really just linear parks.

But don't over-generalize. That doesn't mean that a bike path will
generate economic prosperity along most of its length. We have two main
rail-trail bike paths in my area, one about 10 miles long, the other
about 75 miles long. The short one has not had any detectable economic
effect. There's one bar and one convenience shop along its route, both
within a little village. I've seen no evidence that cyclists comprise
even a tiny percentage of their patrons.


Then check out Folsom and Rancho Cordova in California. Heckle Ale House
in Folsom even gives cyclists a 10% discount.

http://visitfolsom.com/attraction/he...se-and-eatery/

Yesterday as I was sipping a Pilsener at Fort Rock Brewing I got to chat
with the guy next to me. Sure enough he was there on his MTB.


The longer path passes through nine municipalities worthy of the name.
One has a bike shop that might not be there without the path. Another
has a coffee shop. It used to have a bike shop next door, but that bike
shop moved to a busier commercial location and is doing much better. The
two largest cities that the path passes through show absolutely zero
commercial benefit.

Cyclist mode share will always be a drop in the bucket in America. The
question is whether that drop is worthwhile and from me that gets an
enthusiastic yes.


Yes, we know that _you_ believe this. But your personal beliefs don't
justify spending millions of dollars, especially on projects with
questionable design - which applies to most of the bike facilities
currently being touted.


Folsom sure has smart leaders who understand the benefits of bike paths.
The result is a bustling business scene and home values that reflect the
desire of people wanting to move there. I personally met several people
who bought a house in Folsom because of the Willow Creek bike path
system which connects to the larger systems in the area.

By now it doesn't even matter much where in Folsom you buy an house.
They have a rule that every new development must have bike facilities.
If large enough it must be class I for the main thoroughfares. In any
case it must connect to the system. The developer is responsible for
making that happen or they won't get permits.


Damned zoning and development rules! Fascist Folsom government. No wonder it's a prison community. It's funny how the wild-west libertarian loves zoning if it involves dedicating land for bike paths.

We have about a zillion pubs -- some attract cyclists. Here's a random pick: https://momentummag.com/bikes-beer-w...-portland-bar/ Current beer menu: https://apexbar.com/menu That's on a narrow, busy street.. https://tinyurl.com/ycwk4492

This place gets a few bikes: https://brewpublic.com/wp-content/up...TOBEERFEST.jpg That's on SE Powell. You, Joerg, would never set foot on SE Powell -- far too scary. The inside is fun: https://c2..staticflickr.com/6/5034/...ff275846_b.jpg

Plenty of cyclists getting beer with no separated bike paths. In fact, I don't know a single place that is on a separated bicycle path except Cartlandia on the Springwater. http://www.cartlandia.com/ I don't think it does that big of a bike business, but who knows.

Not saying that separated facilities aren't fun (sometimes) or nice to get away from the cars, but they are not necessary for bicycle-related economic activity.

-- Jay Beattie.








  #106  
Old July 4th 18, 10:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 1:40:07 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 7/4/2018 9:13 AM, jbeattie wrote:

The issue was whether separated bicycle facilities have any effect on the economy, which is probably "no." Building better roads and highways has a far greater impact on the economy because bikes are not used to move significant cargo including all the Chinese brake pads you buy from FleaBay and that are delivered by UPS or USPS.


The idea that the economy is dependent on moving cargo around might have
been valid 50 years ago. It's now more of a service economy. Cyclists
eat more restaurant food. Cyclists drink more alcohol.


It's more dependent on transportation than ever with the internet economy. Amazon is ripping off the USPS. Bad deal! Loser. I'm going to get Jeff Bezos! There are far, far too many trucks on the highway. I-5 through Portland is a parking lot of trucks -- from everywhere, Canada to Mexico and all places in between.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #107  
Old July 4th 18, 11:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,546
Default Making America into Amsterdam

sms wrote:
On 7/4/2018 9:13 AM, jbeattie wrote:

The issue was whether separated bicycle facilities have any effect on
the economy, which is probably "no." Building better roads and highways
has a far greater impact on the economy because bikes are not used to
move significant cargo including all the Chinese brake pads you buy from
FleaBay and that are delivered by UPS or USPS.


The idea that the economy is dependent on moving cargo around might have
been valid 50 years ago. It's now more of a service economy. Cyclists
eat more restaurant food. Cyclists drink more alcohol.


So what are all those trucks and trains doing? Check the highways into
Chicago sometime. Right lane is solid trucks nearly to Aurora. I don’t
see many bikes hauling produce to those restaurant supply houses...

--
duane
  #108  
Old July 5th 18, 12:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,511
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 4:40:07 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 7/4/2018 9:13 AM, jbeattie wrote:

The issue was whether separated bicycle facilities have any effect on the economy, which is probably "no." Building better roads and highways has a far greater impact on the economy because bikes are not used to move significant cargo including all the Chinese brake pads you buy from FleaBay and that are delivered by UPS or USPS.


The idea that the economy is dependent on moving cargo around might have
been valid 50 years ago. It's now more of a service economy.


Are you pretending all the stuff in grocery stores, hardware stores, department
stores, pharmacies, sprawl-marts, bike shops, etc. arrives by fiber optic cable?

Cyclists eat more restaurant food. Cyclists drink more alcohol.


First, I doubt those claims are true. The people I see consuming the most
restaurant food and beer look nothing like cyclists.
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/me...ining-room.jpg

Second, even if it were true it would make a negligible difference in the
economy. The differences between cyclists and others can't be that great, since
basal metabolism is such a huge portion of calories expended. And there are
too few dedicated cyclists, as opposed to people who just occasionally go for
a ride.

- Frank Krygowski

  #109  
Old July 5th 18, 03:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 2018-07-04 14:53, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 1:06:03 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-07-04 12:29, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/4/2018 10:10 AM, Joerg wrote:
When cyclists pick a pub or restaurant in this area they
generally prefer those near bike paths. Most cyclists have
sufficient disposable income so they don't just order a
Budweiser and chips.

There are times when proximity to a bike path can improve things
for a business. That's also true of proximity to any other kind
of park - and again, most bike paths are really just linear
parks.

But don't over-generalize. That doesn't mean that a bike path
will generate economic prosperity along most of its length. We
have two main rail-trail bike paths in my area, one about 10
miles long, the other about 75 miles long. The short one has not
had any detectable economic effect. There's one bar and one
convenience shop along its route, both within a little village.
I've seen no evidence that cyclists comprise even a tiny
percentage of their patrons.


Then check out Folsom and Rancho Cordova in California. Heckle Ale
House in Folsom even gives cyclists a 10% discount.

http://visitfolsom.com/attraction/he...se-and-eatery/

Yesterday as I was sipping a Pilsener at Fort Rock Brewing I got to
chat with the guy next to me. Sure enough he was there on his MTB.


The longer path passes through nine municipalities worthy of the
name. One has a bike shop that might not be there without the
path. Another has a coffee shop. It used to have a bike shop next
door, but that bike shop moved to a busier commercial location
and is doing much better. The two largest cities that the path
passes through show absolutely zero commercial benefit.

Cyclist mode share will always be a drop in the bucket in
America. The question is whether that drop is worthwhile and
from me that gets an enthusiastic yes.

Yes, we know that _you_ believe this. But your personal beliefs
don't justify spending millions of dollars, especially on
projects with questionable design - which applies to most of the
bike facilities currently being touted.


Folsom sure has smart leaders who understand the benefits of bike
paths. The result is a bustling business scene and home values that
reflect the desire of people wanting to move there. I personally
met several people who bought a house in Folsom because of the
Willow Creek bike path system which connects to the larger systems
in the area.

By now it doesn't even matter much where in Folsom you buy an
house. They have a rule that every new development must have bike
facilities. If large enough it must be class I for the main
thoroughfares. In any case it must connect to the system. The
developer is responsible for making that happen or they won't get
permits.


Damned zoning and development rules! Fascist Folsom government. No
wonder it's a prison community. It's funny how the wild-west
libertarian loves zoning if it involves dedicating land for bike
paths.


That is not zoning, it is the usual road infrastructure built by
developers through a new neighborhood. After all, you can't sell many
homes if people don't have garages and can't drive up to their house,
and the moving truck can't either. So, logically, Folsom's leaders are
of the opinion that cyclists are equally valuable and also provide
infrastructure for them. Which is rewarded by increased interest in
these development, which increases home price, which increases tax
revenue, which gives Folsom money for even more such cycling
infrastructure. And that shows.


We have about a zillion pubs -- some attract cyclists. Here's a
random pick:
https://momentummag.com/bikes-beer-w...-portland-bar/
Current beer menu: https://apexbar.com/menu That's on a narrow, busy
street. https://tinyurl.com/ycwk4492

This place gets a few bikes:
https://brewpublic.com/wp-content/up...TOBEERFEST.jpg
That's on SE Powell. You, Joerg, would never set foot on SE Powell
-- far too scary. The inside is fun:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5034/5...ff275846_b.jpg


Thursday I rode up to this place, via a nice bike/pedestrian bridge
across Highway 50:

https://s3-media2.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...UejFUSww/o.jpg

If I would have to ride the nasty southern end of Hazel Avenue I
wouldn't have gone there but to the Fair Oaks Brew Pub instead which
also kind of has its own bridge to the

https://s3-media3.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...SJMs97RQ/o.jpg

The roosters in the background are real, they run around in the town.
Went visiting during on a ride the week before and that bridge is like a
chunk out of a jungle movie:

http://mavensphotoblog.com/wp-conten...an-2016-13.jpg

Riders get there totally relaxed without having to ride in noisy stinky
car traffic. You can see the Sunrise Boulevard bridge with car traffic
in the background which is the "official way" into Fair Oaks. Not for me.

And no, that cliff has no railing so you have to know what your are
doing when going up there.

I usually have a Pilsener in such pubs because making that at home is
very time consuming and energy-intense.


Plenty of cyclists getting beer with no separated bike paths. In
fact, I don't know a single place that is on a separated bicycle path
except Cartlandia on the Springwater. http://www.cartlandia.com/ I
don't think it does that big of a bike business, but who knows.

Not saying that separated facilities aren't fun (sometimes) or nice
to get away from the cars, but they are not necessary for
bicycle-related economic activity.


They do foster it at least where I live. And in Manhattan. And ...

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #110  
Old July 5th 18, 03:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Making America into Amsterdam

On 2018-07-04 14:15, sms wrote:
On 7/4/2018 10:36 AM, Joerg wrote:

P.S.: My wife and I are good examples. We'd go out a lot more often
for lunch/dinner if it was possible to walk there safely. I just will
not have a couple of beers and get behind the wheel because that's not
safe. It is also not safe to walk a dark road on the fog line at
night. Therefore, we generally invite people to our house instead and
barbecue. While living in Europe we went out much more because we
could walk to all the places.

Considering that restaurants these days aren't exactly rolling in
dough that would be important for the economy.


True. When I had a significant other in San Francisco we rarely cooked.
Lots of good cheap ethnic food within walking distance. When we go on
rides now, we stop at restaurants that are convenient to the bicycle
routes.



If you'd go back and tally up the totals from old credit card bill
information you'd probably discover that you and you girlfriend left a
big chunk of money at those places. That's how it is with me, pubs and
other places receive 100% of my money spent while riding while
businesses in areas not very reachable via bike infrastructure get next
to nothing. Same goes for taxes associated with all those tabs. Folsom,
El Dorado Hills, Rancho Cordova and Placerville regularly get those from
me while my own home town doesn't during bike rides.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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