#61
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Gels vs Gatorade
Terry Morse wrote:
Peter Cole wrote: "Terry Morse" wrote Granted, this is coming from a company that's trying to sell its own line of sports nutrition products. Please explain why you think their reasoning is all wrong. I think you answered your own question. Not good enough. Arguments still must be refuted or validated, regardless of who makes them. Indeed, but there isn't an argument in what you posted, merely an assertion. -- David Damerell Kill the tomato! |
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#62
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Gels vs Gatorade
"Terry Morse" wrote in message
... Peter Cole wrote: "Terry Morse" wrote Granted, this is coming from a company that's trying to sell its own line of sports nutrition products. Please explain why you think their reasoning is all wrong. I think you answered your own question. Not good enough. Arguments still must be refuted or validated, regardless of who makes them. Too many arguments these days are shrugged off with the "bias" label, "you're biased so any claims you make are nonsense". Nonsense. From the Gatorade online literature, describing a 1993: "Following the ACSM roundtable the scientists in attendance issued a consensus statement which is reprinted below. Prolonged exercise performance can be impaired by depletion of the body's energy stores and by disturbances of water and electrolyte balance. The aim of an oral rehydration solution for use in exercise and sports should be to optimize the provision of carbohydrate, water, and electrolytes. Water uptake in the intestine is maximized by hypotonic solutions containing glucose and sodium, but such solutions may not provide sufficient carbohydrate to optimize prolonged and intense exercise performance. Alternatively, relatively high concentrations of carbohydrate will reduce the rate of water absorption and maximize the supply of carbohydrate. The addition of different energy sources, including various forms of carbohydrate and perhaps other substrates, may offer some advantage to human performance by further stimulating water uptake. Sodium plays an important role in the stimulation of carbohydrate and water absorption in the intestine, but less is known about the optimal amount needed for oral-rehydration solutions. The absorptive capacity of the intestine is generally adequate to cope with even the most extreme demands. Intestinal blood flow is reduced in strenuous exercise, and sustained reductions in blood flow are known to impair absorptive capacity. At the intensities of exercise that can be sustained for more than 30 minutes, there appears to be little effect of exercise on intestinal function. " ****************************************** Pretty much says that if you're dehydrated, you want to stick to hypotonic solutions at the expense of getting behind on carbs. If not, you can have more carbs. Doesn't sound very difficult. If you're dehydrated, drinking a Coke will still give you a boost from carbs, but may make you thirstier, an indication that you'll have a short-term net plasma drop, but you'll eventually absorb the water in it. It's common to lose your appetite when dehydrated, and to lose your thirst with salt depletion, it's just your body's way of communicating priorities. If you're dehydrated, you'll have a more difficult time with digestion, if not, you really don't have to eat any special carbs. Drinking plain water may not re-hydrate quite as quickly (although the drink manufacturers don't like to be pinned down with numbers), but it still works fine, if you're drinking it steadily, you won't dehydrate in the first place. IOW, you don't need sports drinks or gels at all. It's much easier to keep your fluids (water) and carbs separate -- less messy, too. |
#63
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Gels vs Gatorade
"Terry Morse" wrote in message
... Peter Cole wrote: "Terry Morse" wrote Granted, this is coming from a company that's trying to sell its own line of sports nutrition products. Please explain why you think their reasoning is all wrong. I think you answered your own question. Not good enough. Arguments still must be refuted or validated, regardless of who makes them. Too many arguments these days are shrugged off with the "bias" label, "you're biased so any claims you make are nonsense". Nonsense. From the Gatorade online literature, describing a 1993: "Following the ACSM roundtable the scientists in attendance issued a consensus statement which is reprinted below. Prolonged exercise performance can be impaired by depletion of the body's energy stores and by disturbances of water and electrolyte balance. The aim of an oral rehydration solution for use in exercise and sports should be to optimize the provision of carbohydrate, water, and electrolytes. Water uptake in the intestine is maximized by hypotonic solutions containing glucose and sodium, but such solutions may not provide sufficient carbohydrate to optimize prolonged and intense exercise performance. Alternatively, relatively high concentrations of carbohydrate will reduce the rate of water absorption and maximize the supply of carbohydrate. The addition of different energy sources, including various forms of carbohydrate and perhaps other substrates, may offer some advantage to human performance by further stimulating water uptake. Sodium plays an important role in the stimulation of carbohydrate and water absorption in the intestine, but less is known about the optimal amount needed for oral-rehydration solutions. The absorptive capacity of the intestine is generally adequate to cope with even the most extreme demands. Intestinal blood flow is reduced in strenuous exercise, and sustained reductions in blood flow are known to impair absorptive capacity. At the intensities of exercise that can be sustained for more than 30 minutes, there appears to be little effect of exercise on intestinal function. " ****************************************** Pretty much says that if you're dehydrated, you want to stick to hypotonic solutions at the expense of getting behind on carbs. If not, you can have more carbs. Doesn't sound very difficult. If you're dehydrated, drinking a Coke will still give you a boost from carbs, but may make you thirstier, an indication that you'll have a short-term net plasma drop, but you'll eventually absorb the water in it. It's common to lose your appetite when dehydrated, and to lose your thirst with salt depletion, it's just your body's way of communicating priorities. If you're dehydrated, you'll have a more difficult time with digestion, if not, you really don't have to eat any special carbs. Drinking plain water may not re-hydrate quite as quickly (although the drink manufacturers don't like to be pinned down with numbers), but it still works fine, if you're drinking it steadily, you won't dehydrate in the first place. IOW, you don't need sports drinks or gels at all. It's much easier to keep your fluids (water) and carbs separate -- less messy, too. |
#64
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Gels vs Gatorade
"Terry Morse" wrote in message
... Andy Coggan wrote: Seriously, sucrose (common table sugar) is as good, if not better than, any other source of carbohydrate when used in a sports drink. The only possible advantage to maltodextrin is that, for a given concentration, it isn't as sweet, which some people may find more palatable. Andy Coggan (who cut his eye-teeth studying this stuff) Andy, Thanks for chiming in, your expert opinion is always refreshing. I'm sure it would come as no surprise to you that some disagree with your statement about the benefits of sugar in sports drinks. A sample: "Fructose, sucrose, glucose and other simple sugars...absorb poorly, cause wild energy fluctuations, and require excess water consumption...Complex carbohydrates...are the wisest choice for endurance athletes, as they allow your digestive system to rapidly and efficienlty process a greater volume of calories, providing steady energy." - S. Born, "The Endurance Athlete's Guide to Suceess", an E-Caps/Hammer Nutrition publication Granted, this is coming from a company that's trying to sell its own line of sports nutrition products. Please explain why you think their reasoning is all wrong. It's simple: their statement is unsupported by the scientific literature. For example, see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=6390613 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=1936083 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=1406206 Andy Coggan |
#65
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Gels vs Gatorade
"Terry Morse" wrote in message
... Andy Coggan wrote: Seriously, sucrose (common table sugar) is as good, if not better than, any other source of carbohydrate when used in a sports drink. The only possible advantage to maltodextrin is that, for a given concentration, it isn't as sweet, which some people may find more palatable. Andy Coggan (who cut his eye-teeth studying this stuff) Andy, Thanks for chiming in, your expert opinion is always refreshing. I'm sure it would come as no surprise to you that some disagree with your statement about the benefits of sugar in sports drinks. A sample: "Fructose, sucrose, glucose and other simple sugars...absorb poorly, cause wild energy fluctuations, and require excess water consumption...Complex carbohydrates...are the wisest choice for endurance athletes, as they allow your digestive system to rapidly and efficienlty process a greater volume of calories, providing steady energy." - S. Born, "The Endurance Athlete's Guide to Suceess", an E-Caps/Hammer Nutrition publication Granted, this is coming from a company that's trying to sell its own line of sports nutrition products. Please explain why you think their reasoning is all wrong. It's simple: their statement is unsupported by the scientific literature. For example, see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=6390613 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=1936083 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=1406206 Andy Coggan |
#66
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Gels vs Gatorade
"Terry Morse" wrote in message
... In article , Peter wrote: Terry Morse wrote: "Fructose, sucrose, glucose and other simple sugars...absorb poorly, cause wild energy fluctuations, and require excess water consumption...Complex carbohydrates...are the wisest choice for endurance athletes, as they allow your digestive system to rapidly and efficienlty process a greater volume of calories, providing steady energy." - S. Born, "The Endurance Athlete's Guide to Suceess", an E-Caps/Hammer Nutrition publication Granted, this is coming from a company that's trying to sell its own line of sports nutrition products. Do they give any justification for those statements? Yes. From the same document: "Just as important, though, is the fact that simple sugars, unlike complex carbohydrates, take longer and require more fluid to empty from the stomach and GI tract. This is due to a physiological feature known as osmolality...If the osmolality of your sports drink deviates from body fluid levels, it will not absorb. A simple sugar drink will only match regular body fluid osmolality at a very weak 6-8% concentration; otherwise, it will remain in the stomach until sufficiently diluted...With a simple sugar drink, you're left with three bad choices. You can drink a 6-8% solution, but you'll get too few calories. You can drink a lot of a 6-8% solution to get adequate calories, but you'll overfill on fluid, or you can make a concentrated drink to get enough calories, but then you'll get poor absorption. In any case, you're done in. Simple sugar drinks just don't cut it for the endurance athlete." Half-truths and innuendos... While it is true that limiting the concentration of a carbohydrate beverage to 6-8% requires that you ingest more of it than, say, a 15% solution, this is generally not a problem, and in fact is often advantageous. This is because 1) you can meet the ~1 g/min need for exogenous carbohydrate even when ingesting a 6-8% solution, and 2) limiting the concentration to this moderate level means that you maximize fluid (water) delivery, which is just as, if not more, important. The other lie in the above statement is the implication that maltodextrins empty more rapidly than simple sugars, due to their lower osmolality. This was originally (circa 1975) thought to be the case, but has not been borne out in subsequent research. The explanation is probably that factors other than osmolality - such as gastric volume, caloric density, temperature - as more important in determining the rate of gastric emptying (which in turn determines the rate of carbohydrate absorption). Andy Coggan |
#67
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Gels vs Gatorade
"Terry Morse" wrote in message
... In article , Peter wrote: Terry Morse wrote: "Fructose, sucrose, glucose and other simple sugars...absorb poorly, cause wild energy fluctuations, and require excess water consumption...Complex carbohydrates...are the wisest choice for endurance athletes, as they allow your digestive system to rapidly and efficienlty process a greater volume of calories, providing steady energy." - S. Born, "The Endurance Athlete's Guide to Suceess", an E-Caps/Hammer Nutrition publication Granted, this is coming from a company that's trying to sell its own line of sports nutrition products. Do they give any justification for those statements? Yes. From the same document: "Just as important, though, is the fact that simple sugars, unlike complex carbohydrates, take longer and require more fluid to empty from the stomach and GI tract. This is due to a physiological feature known as osmolality...If the osmolality of your sports drink deviates from body fluid levels, it will not absorb. A simple sugar drink will only match regular body fluid osmolality at a very weak 6-8% concentration; otherwise, it will remain in the stomach until sufficiently diluted...With a simple sugar drink, you're left with three bad choices. You can drink a 6-8% solution, but you'll get too few calories. You can drink a lot of a 6-8% solution to get adequate calories, but you'll overfill on fluid, or you can make a concentrated drink to get enough calories, but then you'll get poor absorption. In any case, you're done in. Simple sugar drinks just don't cut it for the endurance athlete." Half-truths and innuendos... While it is true that limiting the concentration of a carbohydrate beverage to 6-8% requires that you ingest more of it than, say, a 15% solution, this is generally not a problem, and in fact is often advantageous. This is because 1) you can meet the ~1 g/min need for exogenous carbohydrate even when ingesting a 6-8% solution, and 2) limiting the concentration to this moderate level means that you maximize fluid (water) delivery, which is just as, if not more, important. The other lie in the above statement is the implication that maltodextrins empty more rapidly than simple sugars, due to their lower osmolality. This was originally (circa 1975) thought to be the case, but has not been borne out in subsequent research. The explanation is probably that factors other than osmolality - such as gastric volume, caloric density, temperature - as more important in determining the rate of gastric emptying (which in turn determines the rate of carbohydrate absorption). Andy Coggan |
#68
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Gels vs Gatorade
On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:28:23 -0700, Terry Morse
wrote: Arguments produce understanding. Actually, the referenced article was written by Steve Born, who is a technical advisor to E-CAPS. He references the work of Bill Misner, PhD (nutrition). Maybe you would like to refute some of the claims? And if you research Bill Misner, you'll find his connection to Hammer Nutrition. Steve, as advisor, can say whatever he likes and it bears no legal recourse to the firm. |
#69
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Gels vs Gatorade
On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:28:23 -0700, Terry Morse
wrote: Arguments produce understanding. Actually, the referenced article was written by Steve Born, who is a technical advisor to E-CAPS. He references the work of Bill Misner, PhD (nutrition). Maybe you would like to refute some of the claims? And if you research Bill Misner, you'll find his connection to Hammer Nutrition. Steve, as advisor, can say whatever he likes and it bears no legal recourse to the firm. |
#70
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Gels vs Gatorade
Peter Cole wrote:
From the Gatorade online literature, describing a 1993: "Following the ACSM roundtable the scientists in attendance issued a consensus statement which is reprinted below. Prolonged exercise performance can be impaired by depletion of the body's energy stores and by disturbances of water and electrolyte balance. The aim of an oral rehydration solution for use in exercise and sports should be to optimize the provision of carbohydrate, water, and electrolytes. Water uptake in the intestine is maximized by hypotonic solutions containing glucose and sodium, but such solutions may not provide sufficient carbohydrate to optimize prolonged and intense exercise performance. Alternatively, relatively high concentrations of carbohydrate will reduce the rate of water absorption and maximize the supply of carbohydrate. The addition of different energy sources, including various forms of carbohydrate and perhaps other substrates, may offer some advantage to human performance by further stimulating water uptake. Sodium plays an important role in the stimulation of carbohydrate and water absorption in the intestine, but less is known about the optimal amount needed for oral-rehydration solutions. The absorptive capacity of the intestine is generally adequate to cope with even the most extreme demands. Intestinal blood flow is reduced in strenuous exercise, and sustained reductions in blood flow are known to impair absorptive capacity. At the intensities of exercise that can be sustained for more than 30 minutes, there appears to be little effect of exercise on intestinal function. " ****************************************** That seems to be a reasonable synopsis, although I don't think it contradicts the statements about the use of sugars in "The Endurance Athlete's Guide to Success". If anything, it seems to agree with it (low concentration solution promotes absorbtion, high concentration reduces absorbtion). -- terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/ |
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