Tubus Cosmo Rack = Expensive Crap for Posers

SMS wrote:
:There are all sorts of workarounds available that would not interfere
:with the chain should the threads become damaged. Of course the best
:thing would be to avoid frames with this issue in the first place but
:that's not going to happen since it's a race to the bottom in frame
:materials.

That's pretty rich from someone who regularly recommends buying from a
source that sells stuff that failed quality control inspections!


--
sig 116

On Jun 6, 7:44*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 06/06/2011 07:21 PM, Michael Press wrote:



In article
,
* *wrote:

On Jun 6, 3:30 pm, Michael *wrote:


Using a bolt to carry that transverse load is a bad design.
Everything afterwards are bandaids. Go back and design it
properly instead of complaining about the bandaid.

Bolt shouldn't carry any load in shear, what should happen is that the
bolt is loaded in tension and the friction between the rack and the
dropout holds the rack in place. *similar to a wheel bolt on an
automobile, which you'd *think* would be loaded in shear, but in
practice actually is not.

Lug nuts work loose, unless the transverse load is put on a cone.
That cone surface on a lug nut remains a bandaid.

Eh, old school "Mag Style" lug nuts with the flat washers, while less
than ideal in several ways, didn't have a significantly higher rate of
failure/loosening than traditional tapered or spherical seat lug
nuts/bolts as far as I know...

And speaking of failure rates, who has ever broken an M5 rack mounting
screw? I certainly haven't, and it's not for lack of carrying heavy
loads long distances.

Threaded fasteners shouldn't be used to carry shear loads, except in
applications where threaded fasteners have carried shear loads for 100
years, and they've always worked well.

- Frank Krygowski

On Jun 6, 9:27*pm, SMS wrote:


The M5 is not a problem due to breakage of the bolt, it can be a problem
because a tapped aluminum dropouts are, as you stated, "pretty iffy."
Definitely not designed for many removal/insertion cycles. That's why
when you install the rack you should not over-tighten the bolts, and you
should use some thread lock.

There are all sorts of workarounds available that would not interfere
with the chain should the threads become damaged. Of course the best
thing would be to avoid frames with this issue in the first place but
that's not going to happen since it's a race to the bottom in frame
materials.

FWIW, our Cannondale touring bikes' aluminum frames came from the
factory with threaded steel inserts for all rack and fender attachment
points.

- Frank Krygowski

Tºm Shermªn °_° wrote:
On 6/6/2011 6:41 PM, James wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Jun 6, 10:12 am, T�m Sherm�n �_� ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:

Here are some of the prototype batch cruising Melbourne:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/5139555796_f5f5d2450a.jpg.

Average Australian motorists in their 400bhp V8 utes will have ball
hunting those down.

Like

http://www.bnsute.com.au/bs-ute/b-and-s-ute/

or more specifically,

http://www.beaututes.com/gallery/data/517/DSC_0080.JPG

and

http://www.beaututes.com/gallery/dat...um/495ras1.jpg


In the US, only rednecks would be seen in vehicles such as those.


What about this then,

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2...ILUX2Small.jpg

or

http://noosacarshop.com/assets/image...ct-bullbar.jpg

Here, your 4x4 isn't really a 4x4 until it's got a bullbar, winch, a set
of spotties, snorkel, oversize mud tyres, 2+ inch suspension lift, high
lift jack, oversize noisy exhaust, side steps and bars, air compressor
and aerials for talking to the RFDS [1].

Taking it offroad is optional, indeed undesirable if you live near Toorak.

If you don't have a bullbar, this is what happens...

http://aphs.worldnomads.com/travel-tips/17484/roo.jpg

[1] http://www.flyingdoctor.org.au/

--
JS.

john B. wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 10:46:58 -0700 (PDT), Zarniwoop
wrote:

On Jun 5, 2:26 am, Coolmaine wrote:
On Jun 4, 9:00 pm, DougC wrote:

On a semi-related note, I have never, ever understood why frame
companies use tiny lower bolts for racks. They're using 3mm bolts when
they should be using 6mm or more.
Yea I know there's custom frames with integral racks, but that's
expensive and not necessary for all bikes. All that would be needed
would be to double the lower-end bolt diameters, and make sure they're
placed properly to have enough room for a nylon locking nut and 3-4mm of
extra bolt length on the inside.
Tubus used proper-sized bolts, Doug. They aren't actually incompetent.
Just careless.

I like the idea of nyloc nuts much better than threadlock, which will
probably get on my hands. I don't mind buying longer bolts if
necessary. Bolts are easily available where I live in stainless in a
variety of lengths and finishes, no problemo, and I can also get nyloc
nuts in a selection of sizes, or just buy a whole box of each size
from RS, my electronics pusher; they're cheap enough. Thanks, man.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information for the tube audio
constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site containing vital gems of
wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review
5 x.8 mm is a common bolt on bikes, if you worry, or just want
extra strength
an 8.8 bolt is made from heat treated steel ,
but most people want shiny, so bike industry use chromed steel or
stainless steel.

That's not really correct, you know. There is no guarantee that just
because a bolt is a certain size that it is made of any specific
material.
By the way, 8.8 mm is not a standard metric size.

see http://www.spaenaur.com/pdf/sectionB/B277.pdf


8.8 refers to the grade, as others have said. More specifically it
defines the ultimate tensile strength of the bolt and the pressure at
which permanent elongation will occur, UTS @ 800 MPa and permanent
elongation @ 80% of 800MPa.

http://www.qldcorvetteclub.com.au/te...talk/bolts.htm

"There are three grades of bolt in common use in Australia. Most bolts
which you will come across will only deviate slightly from these three
grades. The lowest grade is 4.6, commonly known as commercial grade.
Next comes grade 8.8, known as structural grade, and finally, the
highest grade is 12.9, known as high tensile bolts. The first number
represents the ultimate tensile strength of the bolt, 400 Mpa, 800 Mpa
or 1200 Mpa respectively. The second number represents the point at
which the bolt will permanently stretch. (Officially, the 0.2% proof
load stress). A 4.6 bolt permanently stretches at 60% of its ultimate,
an 8.8 at 80% and a 12.9 at 90 %."

--
JS.

On 6/6/2011 9:26 PM, James wrote:
Tºm Shermªn °_° wrote:
On 6/6/2011 6:41 PM, James wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Jun 6, 10:12 am, T�m Sherm�n �_� ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:

Here are some of the prototype batch cruising Melbourne:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/5139555796_f5f5d2450a.jpg.

Average Australian motorists in their 400bhp V8 utes will have ball
hunting those down.

Like

http://www.bnsute.com.au/bs-ute/b-and-s-ute/

or more specifically,

http://www.beaututes.com/gallery/data/517/DSC_0080.JPG

and

http://www.beaututes.com/gallery/dat...um/495ras1.jpg


In the US, only rednecks would be seen in vehicles such as those.


What about this then,

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2...ILUX2Small.jpg

or

http://noosacarshop.com/assets/image...ct-bullbar.jpg

Here, your 4x4 isn't really a 4x4 until it's got a bullbar, winch, a set
of spotties, snorkel, oversize mud tyres, 2+ inch suspension lift, high
lift jack, oversize noisy exhaust, side steps and bars, air compressor
and aerials for talking to the RFDS [1].

None of which makes up for the owners not knowing how to drive properly
off-road.

Taking it offroad is optional, indeed undesirable if you live near Toorak.

Nothing worse than people who buy SUVs for image only.

If you don't have a bullbar, this is what happens...

http://aphs.worldnomads.com/travel-tips/17484/roo.jpg

Whatever happened to the idea of collision avoidance?

[1] http://www.flyingdoctor.org.au/

Metal bull-bars should be outlawed, due to the significantly greater
danger they pose to cyclists and pedestrians.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Tºm Shermªn °_° wrote:
On 6/6/2011 9:26 PM, James wrote:
Tºm Shermªn °_° wrote:
On 6/6/2011 6:41 PM, James wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Jun 6, 10:12 am, T�m Sherm�n �_� ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:

Here are some of the prototype batch cruising Melbourne:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/5139555796_f5f5d2450a.jpg.

Average Australian motorists in their 400bhp V8 utes will have ball
hunting those down.

Like

http://www.bnsute.com.au/bs-ute/b-and-s-ute/

or more specifically,

http://www.beaututes.com/gallery/data/517/DSC_0080.JPG

and

http://www.beaututes.com/gallery/dat...um/495ras1.jpg


In the US, only rednecks would be seen in vehicles such as those.


What about this then,

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2...ILUX2Small.jpg

or

http://noosacarshop.com/assets/image...ct-bullbar.jpg

Here, your 4x4 isn't really a 4x4 until it's got a bullbar, winch, a set
of spotties, snorkel, oversize mud tyres, 2+ inch suspension lift, high
lift jack, oversize noisy exhaust, side steps and bars, air compressor
and aerials for talking to the RFDS [1].

None of which makes up for the owners not knowing how to drive properly
off-road.

Why would they want to? That would make the vehicle dirty and likely
reduce the resale value.

Taking it offroad is optional, indeed undesirable if you live near
Toorak.

Nothing worse than people who buy SUVs for image only.

If you don't have a bullbar, this is what happens...

http://aphs.worldnomads.com/travel-tips/17484/roo.jpg

Whatever happened to the idea of collision avoidance?

Kangaroo DNA does not include collision avoidance sequences.

[1] http://www.flyingdoctor.org.au/

Metal bull-bars should be outlawed, due to the significantly greater
danger they pose to cyclists and pedestrians.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck_Wonderland

--
JS

On 6/6/2011 11:10 PM, James wrote:
[...]
Here, your 4x4 isn't really a 4x4 until it's got a bullbar, winch, a set
of spotties, snorkel, oversize mud tyres, 2+ inch suspension lift, high
lift jack, oversize noisy exhaust, side steps and bars, air compressor
and aerials for talking to the RFDS [1].

None of which makes up for the owners not knowing how to drive
properly off-road.

Why would they want to? That would make the vehicle dirty and likely
reduce the resale value.[...]

Yeah, I guess these people do not know what real work is either.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Tºm Shermªn °_° wrote:
On 6/6/2011 11:10 PM, James wrote:
[...]
Here, your 4x4 isn't really a 4x4 until it's got a bullbar, winch, a
set
of spotties, snorkel, oversize mud tyres, 2+ inch suspension lift, high
lift jack, oversize noisy exhaust, side steps and bars, air compressor
and aerials for talking to the RFDS [1].

None of which makes up for the owners not knowing how to drive
properly off-road.

Why would they want to? That would make the vehicle dirty and likely
reduce the resale value.[...]

Yeah, I guess these people do not know what real work is either.


Define "real" work.

Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/mphg/mphg.htm#Scene%203

quote
DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship.
A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again.
/quote

--
JS

On Jun 7, 1:59*am, Tºm Shermªn °_° ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 6/6/2011 6:29 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Jun 6, 10:12 am, T m Sherm n _ ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" *wrote:

Here are some of the prototype batch cruising Melbourne:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/5139555796_f5f5d2450a.jpg.

Average Australian motorists in their 400bhp V8 utes will have ball
hunting those down.

DD * * * * * * A * * * * NN * * *N * * * GGGG * * EEEEEE * RRRRR * !!
D *DD * * * * A A * * * *N N * * N * * *G * *G * *E * * * *R * R * !!
D * *D * * * A * A * * * N *N * *N * * G * * * * *E * * * *R * R * !!
D * * D * * A * * A * * *N * N * N * *G * * GGG * EEEE * * RRRRR * !!
D * *D * * AAAAAAAAA * * N * *N *N * * G * G *G * E * * * *R R * * !!
D *DD * * A * * * * A * *N * * N N * * *G * *G * *E * * * *R *R
DD * * * A * * * * * A * N * * *NN * * * GGGG * * EEEEEE * R * R * !!

DD * * * * * * A * * * * NN * * *N * * * GGGG * * EEEEEE * RRRRR * !!
D *DD * * * * A A * * * *N N * * N * * *G * *G * *E * * * *R * R * !!
D * *D * * * A * A * * * N *N * *N * * G * * * * *E * * * *R * R * !!
D * * D * * A * * A * * *N * N * N * *G * * GGG * EEEE * * RRRRR * !!
D * *D * * AAAAAAAAA * * N * *N *N * * G * G *G * E * * * *R R * * !!
D *DD * * A * * * * A * *N * * N N * * *G * *G * *E * * * *R *R
DD * * * A * * * * * A * N * * *NN * * * GGGG * * EEEEEE * R * R * !!


Now you're getting the hang of it, Liddell Tommi. Except that those
guys will run over your velomobile on principle. They'll probably
think you're gay, and therefore reverse over you as well. -- AJ