Tubus Cosmo Rack = Expensive Crap for Posers

john B. wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 10:46:58 -0700 (PDT), Zarniwoop
wrote:

On Jun 5, 2:26 am, Coolmaine wrote:
On Jun 4, 9:00 pm, DougC wrote:

On a semi-related note, I have never, ever understood why frame
companies use tiny lower bolts for racks. They're using 3mm bolts when
they should be using 6mm or more.
Yea I know there's custom frames with integral racks, but that's
expensive and not necessary for all bikes. All that would be needed
would be to double the lower-end bolt diameters, and make sure they're
placed properly to have enough room for a nylon locking nut and 3-4mm of
extra bolt length on the inside.
Tubus used proper-sized bolts, Doug. They aren't actually incompetent.
Just careless.

I like the idea of nyloc nuts much better than threadlock, which will
probably get on my hands. I don't mind buying longer bolts if
necessary. Bolts are easily available where I live in stainless in a
variety of lengths and finishes, no problemo, and I can also get nyloc
nuts in a selection of sizes, or just buy a whole box of each size
from RS, my electronics pusher; they're cheap enough. Thanks, man.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information for the tube audio
constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site containing vital gems of
wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review
5 x.8 mm is a common bolt on bikes, if you worry, or just want
extra strength
an 8.8 bolt is made from heat treated steel ,
but most people want shiny, so bike industry use chromed steel or
stainless steel.

That's not really correct, you know. There is no guarantee that just
because a bolt is a certain size that it is made of any specific
material.
By the way, 8.8 mm is not a standard metric size.

see http://www.spaenaur.com/pdf/sectionB/B277.pdf


It's a fastener grade, not a size.
http://www.americanfastener.com/tech...ings_steel.asp

penultimate entry in first section chart

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 06/06/2011 08:26 PM, john B. wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 10:46:58 -0700 (PDT), Zarniwoop
wrote:

On Jun 5, 2:26 am, wrote:
On Jun 4, 9:00 pm, wrote:

On a semi-related note, I have never, ever understood why frame
companies use tiny lower bolts for racks. They're using 3mm bolts when
they should be using 6mm or more.

Yea I know there's custom frames with integral racks, but that's
expensive and not necessary for all bikes. All that would be needed
would be to double the lower-end bolt diameters, and make sure they're
placed properly to have enough room for a nylon locking nut and 3-4mm of
extra bolt length on the inside.

Tubus used proper-sized bolts, Doug. They aren't actually incompetent.
Just careless.

I like the idea of nyloc nuts much better than threadlock, which will
probably get on my hands. I don't mind buying longer bolts if
necessary. Bolts are easily available where I live in stainless in a
variety of lengths and finishes, no problemo, and I can also get nyloc
nuts in a selection of sizes, or just buy a whole box of each size
from RS, my electronics pusher; they're cheap enough. Thanks, man.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information for the tube audio
constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD& GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site containing vital gems of
wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News& Record Review

5 x.8 mm is a common bolt on bikes, if you worry, or just want
extra strength
an 8.8 bolt is made from heat treated steel ,
but most people want shiny, so bike industry use chromed steel or
stainless steel.

That's not really correct, you know. There is no guarantee that just
because a bolt is a certain size that it is made of any specific
material.
By the way, 8.8 mm is not a standard metric size.

see http://www.spaenaur.com/pdf/sectionB/B277.pdf


no, 8.8 refers to the strength of the material - roughly equivalent to
Grade 5. The other common property class likely to be found in your
local hardware store is 10.9, roughly equivalent to Grade 8.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw#M...lassifications
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASTM_F568M

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

john B. wrote:
:On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 10:46:58 -0700 (PDT), Zarniwoop
wrote:

:On Jun 5, 2:26 am, Coolmaine wrote:
: On Jun 4, 9:00 pm, DougC wrote:
:
: On a semi-related note, I have never, ever understood why frame
: companies use tiny lower bolts for racks. They're using 3mm bolts when
: they should be using 6mm or more.
:
: Yea I know there's custom frames with integral racks, but that's
: expensive and not necessary for all bikes. All that would be needed
: would be to double the lower-end bolt diameters, and make sure they're
: placed properly to have enough room for a nylon locking nut and 3-4mm of
: extra bolt length on the inside.
:
: Tubus used proper-sized bolts, Doug. They aren't actually incompetent.
: Just careless.
:
: I like the idea of nyloc nuts much better than threadlock, which will
: probably get on my hands. I don't mind buying longer bolts if
: necessary. Bolts are easily available where I live in stainless in a
: variety of lengths and finishes, no problemo, and I can also get nyloc
: nuts in a selection of sizes, or just buy a whole box of each size
: from RS, my electronics pusher; they're cheap enough. Thanks, man.
:
: Andre Jute
: Visit Jute on Amps at
: http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/
: "wonderfully well written and reasoned information for the tube audio
: constructor"
: John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
: "an unbelievably comprehensive web site containing vital gems of
: wisdom"
: Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review
:
: 5 x.8 mm is a common bolt on bikes, if you worry, or just want
:extra strength
: an 8.8 bolt is made from heat treated steel ,
: but most people want shiny, so bike industry use chromed steel or
:stainless steel.

:That's not really correct, you know. There is no guarantee that just
:because a bolt is a certain size that it is made of any specific
:material.
:By the way, 8.8 mm is not a standard metric size.

8.8 is a specification, which includes both mechanical specifications,
and specifications on composition and heat treating. 8.8 bolts are
steel, and are heat treated. 8.8 bolts are available in a bunch of
sizes.

:see http://www.spaenaur.com/pdf/sectionB/B277.pdf

that's a page of 12.9 bolts. What's that got to do with 8.8 ones?

--
sig 92

On 6/6/2011 6:29 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Jun 6, 10:12�am, T�m Sherm�n �_�""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 6/6/2011 12:22 AM, Tosspot wrote:





On 06/06/2011 02:39 AM, T�m Sherm�n� �_� �wrote:
On 6/5/2011 6:41 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Jun 5, 7:43 pm, T m Sherm n _""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" � wrote:

The perfect solution is tossing all your stuff behind the seat of your
velomobile.

The perfect solution to looking a right jerkoff on any road anywhere
in the world: a "velomobile", furthermore painted in a silly
exhibitionist's fluorescent pastel color. Yech.

Point of technical correction - the body on my Trisled Rotovelo [1] is
*not* painted. �Rather, pigment is added to the HDPE resin prior to
rotational molding. �This provides a shell that is much less susceptible
to cosmetic damage than painted fiber-reinforced epoxy shells. �The
shell is also semi-translucent, so an internal light can be added for
glow-in-the-dark effects.

[1]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/5792235188/sizes/l/in/photo....

My Eyes! �My EYES!!

You actually taken that tart out onto the road yet? �Cos I'm expecting a
stream of crashed from blinded drivers...

Here are some of the prototype batch cruising Melbourne:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/5139555796_f5f5d2450a.jpg.

Average Australian motorists in their 400bhp V8 utes will have ball
hunting those down.

DD A NN N GGGG EEEEEE RRRRR !!
D DD A A N N N G G E R R !!
D D A A N N N G E R R !!
D D A A N N N G GGG EEEE RRRRR !!
D D AAAAAAAAA N N N G G G E R R !!
D DD A A N N N G G E R R
DD A A N NN GGGG EEEEEE R R !!



DD A NN N GGGG EEEEEE RRRRR !!
D DD A A N N N G G E R R !!
D D A A N N N G E R R !!
D D A A N N N G GGG EEEE RRRRR !!
D D AAAAAAAAA N N N G G G E R R !!
D DD A A N N N G G E R R
DD A A N NN GGGG EEEEEE R R !!

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 6/6/2011 6:41 PM, James wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Jun 6, 10:12 am, T�m Sherm�n �_� ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:

Here are some of the prototype batch cruising Melbourne:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/5139555796_f5f5d2450a.jpg.

Average Australian motorists in their 400bhp V8 utes will have ball
hunting those down.

Like

http://www.bnsute.com.au/bs-ute/b-and-s-ute/

or more specifically,

http://www.beaututes.com/gallery/data/517/DSC_0080.JPG

and

http://www.beaututes.com/gallery/dat...um/495ras1.jpg


In the US, only rednecks would be seen in vehicles such as those.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 6/6/2011 7:45 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Jun 7, 12:41�am, wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Jun 6, 10:12 am, T�m Sherm�n �_�""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
Here are some of the prototype batch cruising Melbourne:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/5139555796_f5f5d2450a.jpg.

Average Australian motorists in their 400bhp V8 utes will have ball
hunting those down.

Like

http://www.bnsute.com.au/bs-ute/b-and-s-ute/

or more specifically,

http://www.beaututes.com/gallery/data/517/DSC_0080.JPG

and

http://www.beaututes.com/gallery/dat...um/495ras1.jpg

--
JS.

That beautiful stainless work on the 'roo catcher will feature in
Liddell Tommi's nightmares! I like the authentic expression of the
Australian motorist's attitude on a sign, carefully designed to slice
some unfortunate in two, that says, "Pedestrian Hazard". -- AJ

If only we could all be like Jute, and go around destroying motor
vehicles at traffic lights.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On Mon, 06 Jun 2011 16:21:37 -0700, Michael Press
wrote:

In article
,
N8N wrote:

On Jun 6, 3:30*pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article ,





*DougC wrote:
On 6/4/2011 4:29 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 4-6-2011 22:00, DougC schreef:
On 6/3/2011 5:13 PM, Coolmaine wrote:
The good quality ali rack which came on my Utopia Kranich sacrificed
itself to protect my bike when it was twice attacked by a carelessly
driven Range Rover. Once I managed to straighten it but the second
time it was crippled forever.

.....

On a semi-related note, I have never, ever understood why frame
companies use tiny lower bolts for racks. They're using 3mm bolts when
they should be using 6mm or more.

M3? Look again. Tubus use M5 bolts. Well my racks do.

Lou

I don't know what the exact size is--other than if they're the same size
as the fender bolts, the rack bolts are too ****ing small. And they
should be using bolts 2X as thick.

Using a bolt to carry that transverse load is a bad design.
Everything afterwards are bandaids. Go back and design it
properly instead of complaining about the bandaid.

Bolt shouldn't carry any load in shear, what should happen is that the
bolt is loaded in tension and the friction between the rack and the
dropout holds the rack in place. similar to a wheel bolt on an
automobile, which you'd *think* would be loaded in shear, but in
practice actually is not.

Lug nuts work loose, unless the transverse load is put on a cone.
That cone surface on a lug nut remains a bandaid.


Err... Many mag wheels use lug nuts without a cone. See
http://www.excaliburwheel.com/magnut.html or
http://www.customwheelaccessories.com/MagLugNuts.html
for examples.

While it might be anecdotical I have never had a mag wheel fall off.

On 6/6/2011 7:29 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
[...] What you fail to grasp,
Springer, is that I used to be in the business of putting dreams in
the heads of big spenders like you (your fridge, your garage and your
wardrobe is full of overpriced crap I made you want)[...]

Refrigerator: Primarily unadvertised brands (mostly house brands).

Wardrobe: Designer labels - a couple of items that were picked up from
the give-away table (free) and thrift stores (because they were dirt cheap).

Garage/Driveway: Banged up and unwashed Honda Civic urban rat runner,
and scratched, dented, and unwashed Nissan Frontier work truck. Some
'bents from a specialty builder who only had a couple of small
advertisements in low-circulation specialty publications and a
velomobile - the latter something that 99.9% of the population has no
clue to what it is.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 6/6/2011 5:26 PM, john B. wrote:

By the way, 8.8 mm is not a standard metric size.

8.8 is not the size, it's the grade.

On 6/6/2011 1:03 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:

Maybe done before, but it seems that a mounting arrangement where the
end of the rack stay goes on top of and over the eyelet with the M5
bolt as more or less a through bolt would be workable. Probably utter
unnecessary since I've never broken a rack bolt even with months on
the road under a heavy load (loosened plenty, though). M5 seems
adequate although I used M6 on some aluminum drop-outs that I drilled
and tapped just because ho-made aluminum threads are pretty iffy. --
Jay Beattie.

The M5 is not a problem due to breakage of the bolt, it can be a problem
because a tapped aluminum dropouts are, as you stated, "pretty iffy."
Definitely not designed for many removal/insertion cycles. That's why
when you install the rack you should not over-tighten the bolts, and you
should use some thread lock.

There are all sorts of workarounds available that would not interfere
with the chain should the threads become damaged. Of course the best
thing would be to avoid frames with this issue in the first place but
that's not going to happen since it's a race to the bottom in frame
materials.