tubeless or tubes

On 4/6/21 1:29 AM, sms wrote:
On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes.Â* If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over.Â* However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted.Â* You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless.Â* That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.

The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.

Lol! Never a truer word...

On Mon, 05 Apr 2021 23:49:10 -0700, Sir Ridesalot scribed:


Aren't a lot of roofing nails an aluminium alloy and therefore not
magnetic?

IME here. Old style were galvanised iron and a twisted nail.
Modern ones are aluminium screws.
YMMV.

On 4/6/21 12:10 AM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 11:28:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/4/2021 8:59 PM, Mark cleary wrote:
I wonder what most regular cyclist are riding these days. I see so much on tubeless sets up and I have never given it a thought. I don't flat much so I just do not see the benefit at all and really so much easier just putting a tube in. I am I in the minority these days?

I'm not aware of any of my riding friends using tubeless.

The bike industry, including bike magazines, always have to hype
_something_ new. Don't confuse hype with actual benefits or actual
practice.


But, but! It's NEW! It's gotta be better!

It's exactly like the wife. The old one is cranky, out of date, prone
to failures, the new one is shiny, polished, expensive and hard to maintain.

On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 23:49:10 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 8:49:46 p.m. UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:29:26 -0700, sms
wrote:
On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.

The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.
You must be a member of the CCC (Cynical Cycling Club).

Marginally related tube drivel:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air.
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.

2. Last years CZU fire and subsequent wind storm(s) gave a big boost
to the home repair business. One of the side effects is the various
amateur and professional contractors tend to leave nails all over the
road. This year, I picked up a nail in the tread, which I
successfully plugged on my 3rd try. I expect to find more nails in my
tires until after the construction is done. Yes, we sweep the road
with a magnetic pickup tool, but the nails are good at hiding. Looking
at the damage, I'm fairly sure that I would not have had a problem if
my tire had an inner tube.

3. I'm on my last Nashbar leaky bicycle inner tube. I started with 6
cheap tubes, all of which have leaked to varying degrees. I'll soon
need to make a decision as to whether to buy some more cheap tubes,
some expensive better tubes, Slime Sealant, or go tubeless with
sealant. Since I'm cheap, it will probably more cheap leaky tubes.
--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Aren't a lot of roofing nails an aluminium alloy and therefore not magnetic?

Cheers

All my roofs are tile but Amazon seems to have a lot of galvanized
roofing nails wired in a roll I assume for some sort of nail gun.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 4/6/2021 12:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I borrowed a hand truck that had something in the tires besides air. I
have 50 stairs going up to the house. Going down those stairs, with a
fully loaded 33 gallon trash can required a little care.

Have you thought about a winch system, or something like a dumbwaiter?

A few years back I designed and built a treehouse for some kids in the
family. It spans between two trees. Entrance is via ladder up through a
trapdoor.

I was quite pleased with it, until we tried to carry some folding chairs
up the ladder. It was clumsy and seemed dangerous. So I built a simple
hand-crank winch hanging out over the back side of the treehouse rail.
The kids can put stuff into an old huge wire bike basket then crank
things up, or unhook the basket to lift larger loads.

I admit, when I built the winch I didn't anticipate that if they let go
of the crank, the weight would spin it around at several hundred rpm. So
I quickly rigged up a sort of capstan brake made of rope wrapping the
shaft. It gives one way action similar to pawls in a freewheel. A weight
hangs from the rope, and lifting the weight a bit allows cranking loads
down.

Another winch application: I grew jealous of the space my homemade
utility trailer was consuming in my garage, so I began tipping it up
onto its tail and storing it against the wall. That was when I was much
younger. A few years ago I decided raising and lowering it by hand was
getting risky, so a Harbor Freight hand crank winch and a couple pulleys
now helps a lot with that job.

Of course, for your trash cans you could have a motor drive winch if you
chose.

--
- Frank Krygowski

bob prohaska wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

Lighter? A Michelin road tube is 65 grams. Four ounces of
latex (minimum dose)is nearly twice that, plus a heavier
valve assembly and on some rims a heavier rim liner as well.


But, why latex and rim liners? If the tire fits the rim accurately,
and the rim is airtight, neither is required. Are those two things
infeasible with present manufacturing techniques?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska



Currently rims have between 20 - 36 holes to feed the spike heads through,
requiring the use of a rim liner. Cars avoided that by moving to pressed
steel and cast aluminum wheels, neither of which I see taking over. Also,
many wheels are pinned together instead of welded at the seam, which is
another potential air leakage site.

On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 5:53:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/5/2021 2:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 12:14:21 PM UTC-7, bob prohaska wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

I'm not aware of any of my riding friends using tubeless.

Nonetheless, tubeless tires have taken over most applications.
The exceptions are usually cases where rims can't be airtight.

What's the impediment for bicycles? Is it the extreme aspect
ratio of bike tires? Manufacturing tolerances? Rim construction?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska
Bob, Tubeless tires are a real bear to get on and off these days. And they are messy and you have to change the sealant at the very least once a year. And they STILL get serious flats if not minor ones So you have to carry a regular repair kit with a tube etc. There is an advantage to Time Trialists since the tires are lighter and have less rolling resistance. But other than that I see no real advantage that isn't offset by a real disadvantage.

Lighter? A Michelin road tube is 65 grams. Four ounces of
latex (minimum dose)is nearly twice that, plus a heavier
valve assembly and on some rims a heavier rim liner as well.

Tubeless tires are nevertheless lighter and have lower rolling resistance. That is why pro time trialists use them. And if a pro uses them most people take that as proof that they are superior. My testing of them is that they are quite inferior.

On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 6:06:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/5/2021 7:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:29:26 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.

The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.

You must be a member of the CCC (Cynical Cycling Club).

Marginally related tube drivel:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air.
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.

2. Last years CZU fire and subsequent wind storm(s) gave a big boost
to the home repair business. One of the side effects is the various
amateur and professional contractors tend to leave nails all over the
road. This year, I picked up a nail in the tread, which I
successfully plugged on my 3rd try. I expect to find more nails in my
tires until after the construction is done. Yes, we sweep the road
with a magnetic pickup tool, but the nails are good at hiding. Looking
at the damage, I'm fairly sure that I would not have had a problem if
my tire had an inner tube.

3. I'm on my last Nashbar leaky bicycle inner tube. I started with 6
cheap tubes, all of which have leaked to varying degrees. I'll soon
need to make a decision as to whether to buy some more cheap tubes,
some expensive better tubes, Slime Sealant, or go tubeless with
sealant. Since I'm cheap, it will probably more cheap leaky tubes.



On that style tire, wet the bead set with soapy water or
spray wax, cinch your belt or similar around the tire and
inflate quickly. It will snap onto the seats.

Uh, Andrew? You have a belt long enough to go around a 700c? Exactly how much do you weigh? Or are you speaking of John?

On 4/5/2021 8:33 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 05 Apr 2021 20:19:29 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

I can post photos if anyone wants to see the problem.

This is almost the exact same hand truck (dolly) that I have:
"How to change flat tire on a moving dolly / Dolly repair/ Dolly Fix"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSDCVgkF3JU (1:36)
However, the tire is a different tread pattern and design. It also
seems far more flexible than mine.

Also, I forgot to mention another advantage of tubeless tires. If you
can't get the bead to set after changing the tire, just fill it with
any kind of explosive gas (butane, propane, natural gas, etc) and
ignite it. The expanding gases will seat the tire on the rim quite
nicely. That doesn't work with an inner tube.

Yes, every rider that uses tubeless tires should carry a butane
cartridge and a lighter in their tool bag. The butane cartridges are not
as small as CO2 cartridges though.

These are the smallest I could find
https://www.bnbtobacco.com/products/bugatti-butane-refill-pods. I
think that someone should contact the company with your advice because
it could greatly expand the market for their product. They could relabel
the cartridges and sell them through bicycle shops at a much higher
price. That's what lubricant manufacturers do.

On 4/5/2021 9:48 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 06 Apr 2021 10:39:35 +0700, John B.
wrote:

I don't see the logic for tubeless tires on a garbage cart.

Tubeless is cheaper because there's no inner tubes. I paid $10/ea for
the 4.10 x 3.50 inner tubes. My guess(tm) is that two inner tubes
would have added $2 to the price of a $60 dolly.

snip

Did you check Harbor Freight for tubes? They seem to have the best
prices on small wheels, tires, and inner tubes
https://www.harborfreight.com/material-handling/tires-casters/pneumatic-tires-inner-tubes.html.
When I was a band parent we used a lot of tires and wheels for equipment
used in shows and we were always running to Harbor Freight for something.

You should also buy their mini tire changer, specifically designed for
wheels with 4" to 12" rims
https://www.harborfreight.com/material-handling/tires-casters/pneumatic-tires-inner-tubes/mini-tire-changer-61179.html.
You could start a small business changing small tires and replacing tubes.