Damned Central Heating!

On 3/28/2019 1:31 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-27 18:17, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 4:44:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2019-03-27 10:25, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 7:14:41 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2019-03-24 15:28, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 08:23:11 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 16:20, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 16:06:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 15:56, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:34:21 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-20 11:09, sms wrote:

[...]


There's a big move now to all-electric since the
electricity can be generated without the use of
fossil fuels.


Electric? With PG&E as the supplier? I won't touch
that with a 10ft pole for anything where electric
power isn't absolutely needed.Yve cooling. No tax
incentives there either because politicians are
generally not smart enough to understand the
benefits of that.

You bought a house in a gated community, and you own
two cars, and can't afford electricity?


Please pay closer attention to what was written and,
even more so, what was not written. Premature
conclusions are also not wise.

a. We do not live in a gated community. Never did.

Strange that as it has been said more than once that
you
do live in a gated community and you have never before
refuted it?


I have. You should read more carefully.

Well perhaps I missed your reply to one or more of J's
messages mentioning your establishment.


Old rule: If you don't know, ask before making bold
statements.



b. Our cars are both well over 20 years old and we
drive less than 1200mi/year with each of them.

I see, there are no additional costs for using a car if
you don't drive it? Like insurance, etc? Just don't
drive
them and they are free?


Insurance is cheap and it is also necessary for cycling,
which is covered with the car insurance. The cost
pales in
comparison to other items.


I see. You have insurance for your bicycle? What sort?
collision insurance to pay for all the cars you smash
up with
your bicycle?


What would happen if you accidentally miss a stop sign and
cause a major pile up with injuries or death?

What would happen if you get hit by a driver who elects to
vanish from the scene and then you need years of skilled
nursing care? And no, health insurance only covers the
initial
medical part, not longterm care.

As I wrote, my car insurance is for cars _and_ bicycles.

Yes, and here's an interesting twist -- no PIP or UIM
coverage
under your own policy if you get hit by another bike.


Really? IIRC my insurance guy explained that to me as
covering any
kind of crash.


... Around here, that risk is probably as great or
greater than
getting hit by a car, although the consequences are usually
less.


The closest call in that respect was with a buck. No
kidding. He
didn't even look back, just kept running.

For UIM or PIP, you have to be hit by a motor vehicle, at
least in
California. That doesn't mean you can't sue the other
cyclist who
would probably have coverage under his HO policy.

If you get hit by a car on your bike or as a pedestrian,
then you can
get UIM and PIP.

I was riding with my son last weekend, coming back from
Canby after
crossing on the ferry and encountered some cows. I
stopped just to
see if I could have a magical experience with them, like
you do.
Nothing. They just stood there, looking disinterested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhcRKkwMFtY The ferry is
at 1:40,
but damn it, no cows! Here's one at the TMK Creamery in
Canby:
https://www.facebook.com/TMKfarms/ph...type=3&theater

I don't think that cow was among the ones I saw, though.
No other
magical or impressive animals that I can recall. Maybe
some horses. I
scared some Roosevelt Elk out on the coast a while back --
they can
be nasty or behave unpredictably like cow-sized squirrels,
so its
best not to ride around them.
https://www.hcn.org/articles/wildlif...ns-north-coast



I found our cattle to react to music from my MP3 player.
That was the only option I had when I got them startled with
my MTB. If I had attempted to sing like cowboys would, with
my voice, they'd have stampeded.


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...ese-180971721/

You ought to apply for a research grant.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, March 28, 2019 at 11:32:48 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-28 01:20, wrote:
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 22:22:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/27/2019 7:44 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-27 10:25, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 7:14:41 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

As I wrote, my car insurance is for cars _and_ bicycles.

Yes, and here's an interesting twist -- no PIP or UIM coverage under
your own policy if you get hit by another bike.


Really? IIRC my insurance guy explained that to me as covering any kind
of crash.

Insurance guys have been known to give rather misleading explanations.

But they give you a written contract, don't they? I know nothing about
U.S. insurance policies but the ones we got when I was working, for
our equipment for example, were pretty complete and if there was a
question we would (actually have our Lawyer) write a letter to the
insurance company clarification of that point.

Won't U.S. companies formally clarify points in their contracts?


A witnesses statement from a licensed insurance writer who works for the
underwriting company, or an email, is a pretty powerful thing in the
case of a dispute.

Not if the statement was made by an agent after the issuance of the policy or even before the policy was issued, depending on the binder statute in your state -- and depending on whether the agent is an actual agent of the insurer or just a producer or broker. There are a lot of variables, and the rule of thumb is that you're bound by the terms of the policy. That is the contract between the parties. If the agent got you the wrong policy, you may have an E&O claim -- assuming there was a right policy. Some risks simply are not insurable. If the agent simply mis-interpreted the policy after it was issued, that means nothing in most states.

And when it comes to UM/UIM it's all statutory. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...nNum= 11580.2. The policy might expand coverage, but it can't limit it, and most policies are written to conform to the state statute -- you have a "California UM Endorsement" on your policy. It doesn't provide UIM/UM coverage when you're hit by a bike while riding a bike -- no matter what your agent may think..

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2019-03-28 12:03, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 28, 2019 at 11:32:48 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-28 01:20, wrote:
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 22:22:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/27/2019 7:44 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-27 10:25, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 7:14:41 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:

As I wrote, my car insurance is for cars _and_ bicycles.

Yes, and here's an interesting twist -- no PIP or UIM
coverage under your own policy if you get hit by another
bike.


Really? IIRC my insurance guy explained that to me as
covering any kind of crash.

Insurance guys have been known to give rather misleading
explanations.

But they give you a written contract, don't they? I know nothing
about U.S. insurance policies but the ones we got when I was
working, for our equipment for example, were pretty complete and
if there was a question we would (actually have our Lawyer) write
a letter to the insurance company clarification of that point.

Won't U.S. companies formally clarify points in their contracts?


A witnesses statement from a licensed insurance writer who works
for the underwriting company, or an email, is a pretty powerful
thing in the case of a dispute.

Not if the statement was made by an agent after the issuance of the
policy or even before the policy was issued, depending on the binder
statute in your state -- ...


It was before. I find it hard to believe that wouldn't hold in court.


... and depending on whether the agent is an
actual agent of the insurer or just a producer or broker.


Agent of the insurance company, not a broker.


... There are
a lot of variables, and the rule of thumb is that you're bound by the
terms of the policy. That is the contract between the parties. If
the agent got you the wrong policy, you may have an E&O claim --
assuming there was a right policy. Some risks simply are not
insurable. If the agent simply mis-interpreted the policy after it
was issued, that means nothing in most states.

And when it comes to UM/UIM it's all statutory.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...nNum= 11580.2.
The policy might expand coverage, but it can't limit it, and most
policies are written to conform to the state statute -- you have a
"California UM Endorsement" on your policy. It doesn't provide UIM/UM
coverage when you're hit by a bike while riding a bike -- no matter
what your agent may think.


I guess that all depends on what a jury would think.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2019-03-28 12:01, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/28/2019 1:31 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-27 18:17, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


I was riding with my son last weekend, coming back from
Canby after
crossing on the ferry and encountered some cows. I
stopped just to
see if I could have a magical experience with them, like
you do.
Nothing. They just stood there, looking disinterested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhcRKkwMFtY The ferry is
at 1:40,
but damn it, no cows! Here's one at the TMK Creamery in
Canby:
https://www.facebook.com/TMKfarms/ph...type=3&theater


I don't think that cow was among the ones I saw, though.
No other
magical or impressive animals that I can recall. Maybe
some horses. I
scared some Roosevelt Elk out on the coast a while back --
they can
be nasty or behave unpredictably like cow-sized squirrels,
so its
best not to ride around them.
https://www.hcn.org/articles/wildlif...ns-north-coast




I found our cattle to react to music from my MP3 player.
That was the only option I had when I got them startled with
my MTB. If I had attempted to sing like cowboys would, with
my voice, they'd have stampeded.


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...ese-180971721/


You ought to apply for a research grant.


It works better while the milk that makes the cheese is still in the cows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs_-emj1qR4

Deer reacts to music quiet well also.

Rattlesnakes don't, I've tried. I think they are deaf or almost deaf.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 3/28/2019 4:20 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 22:22:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/27/2019 7:44 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-27 10:25, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 7:14:41 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

As I wrote, my car insurance is for cars _and_ bicycles.

Yes, and here's an interesting twist -- no PIP or UIM coverage under
your own policy if you get hit by another bike.


Really? IIRC my insurance guy explained that to me as covering any kind
of crash.

Insurance guys have been known to give rather misleading explanations.

But they give you a written contract, don't they? I know nothing about
U.S. insurance policies but the ones we got when I was working, for
our equipment for example, were pretty complete and if there was a
question we would (actually have our Lawyer) write a letter to the
insurance company clarification of that point.

Won't U.S. companies formally clarify points in their contracts?

FWIW, I know a bike club that had its policy examined by a lawyer after
many years. At least some of the officers and members thought the policy
was supposed to protect the officers from lawsuits if a member crashed
and sued them (not that such a thing ever happened to this club). The
lawyer pointed out that the policy covered nothing of the sort. Instead,
it covered liability if the club members somehow injured someone else or
damaged another's property. As they lawyer put it, "If your club ride
ever veers off the road and smashes in someone's front porch, you're
covered."

Now that was probably just a misunderstanding by the officers and
members. But the lawyer also found that since the inception of the
policy, the club had been buying "commercial vehicle coverage." The
lawyer asked what commercial vehicles the club used, but there never
were any. The closest were private cars being used by members who
volunteered to drive sag for events.

The lawyer said "I think some agent talked you into coverage you never
needed. He probably got a bonus for that."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, March 28, 2019 at 2:15:02 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/28/2019 4:20 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 22:22:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/27/2019 7:44 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-27 10:25, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 7:14:41 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

As I wrote, my car insurance is for cars _and_ bicycles.

Yes, and here's an interesting twist -- no PIP or UIM coverage under
your own policy if you get hit by another bike.


Really? IIRC my insurance guy explained that to me as covering any kind
of crash.

Insurance guys have been known to give rather misleading explanations.

But they give you a written contract, don't they? I know nothing about
U.S. insurance policies but the ones we got when I was working, for
our equipment for example, were pretty complete and if there was a
question we would (actually have our Lawyer) write a letter to the
insurance company clarification of that point.

Won't U.S. companies formally clarify points in their contracts?

FWIW, I know a bike club that had its policy examined by a lawyer after
many years. At least some of the officers and members thought the policy
was supposed to protect the officers from lawsuits if a member crashed
and sued them (not that such a thing ever happened to this club). The
lawyer pointed out that the policy covered nothing of the sort. Instead,
it covered liability if the club members somehow injured someone else or
damaged another's property. As they lawyer put it, "If your club ride
ever veers off the road and smashes in someone's front porch, you're
covered."

Now that was probably just a misunderstanding by the officers and
members. But the lawyer also found that since the inception of the
policy, the club had been buying "commercial vehicle coverage." The
lawyer asked what commercial vehicles the club used, but there never
were any. The closest were private cars being used by members who
volunteered to drive sag for events.

The lawyer said "I think some agent talked you into coverage you never
needed. He probably got a bonus for that."

And for Joerg, his case would never get to a jury, assuming he is relying on some post-issuance statement by an agent as to the meaning of the policy. I won't go into a dissertation why, but he should read the integration clause in his policy and read-up on the parol evidence rule. The policy provides exactly the coverage it provides and cannot be orally modified after issuance to provide additional coverage. Some conditions can be waived, but the basic coverage -- i.e. the scope of UIM coverage -- cannot be expanded by an oral representation of an agent after the policy is issued and accepted.

The policy you're talking about is called "event insurance." It doesn't cover suits by participants against the organizers. It covers the organizers in the event a participant causes damage to a third-party. The tank case I mentioned before involves an event policy and injuries to participants -- and no coverage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suGX-hbYwAE

-- Jay Beattie.

On Thursday, March 28, 2019 at 5:38:23 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
The policy you're talking about is called "event insurance." It doesn't cover suits by participants against the organizers. It covers the organizers in the event a participant causes damage to a third-party. The tank case I mentioned before involves an event policy and injuries to participants -- and no coverage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suGX-hbYwAE

-- Jay Beattie.

That explosion was caused by over loading propellant in the cartridge of the ammunition being used and the people loading it had been informed earlier that doing so was very dangerous. Given that, would an insurance policy have paid out if one had been in effect?

Cheers

On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 11:31:28 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-27 18:17, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 4:44:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-27 10:25, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 7:14:41 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-24 15:28, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 08:23:11 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 16:20, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 16:06:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 15:56, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:34:21 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-20 11:09, sms wrote:

[...]


There's a big move now to all-electric since the
electricity can be generated without the use of
fossil fuels.


Electric? With PG&E as the supplier? I won't touch
that with a 10ft pole for anything where electric
power isn't absolutely needed.Yve cooling. No tax
incentives there either because politicians are
generally not smart enough to understand the
benefits of that.

You bought a house in a gated community, and you own
two cars, and can't afford electricity?


Please pay closer attention to what was written and,
even more so, what was not written. Premature
conclusions are also not wise.

a. We do not live in a gated community. Never did.

Strange that as it has been said more than once that you
do live in a gated community and you have never before
refuted it?


I have. You should read more carefully.

Well perhaps I missed your reply to one or more of J's
messages mentioning your establishment.


Old rule: If you don't know, ask before making bold
statements.



b. Our cars are both well over 20 years old and we
drive less than 1200mi/year with each of them.

I see, there are no additional costs for using a car if
you don't drive it? Like insurance, etc? Just don't drive
them and they are free?


Insurance is cheap and it is also necessary for cycling,
which is covered with the car insurance. The cost pales in
comparison to other items.


I see. You have insurance for your bicycle? What sort?
collision insurance to pay for all the cars you smash up with
your bicycle?


What would happen if you accidentally miss a stop sign and
cause a major pile up with injuries or death?

What would happen if you get hit by a driver who elects to
vanish from the scene and then you need years of skilled
nursing care? And no, health insurance only covers the initial
medical part, not longterm care.

As I wrote, my car insurance is for cars _and_ bicycles.

Yes, and here's an interesting twist -- no PIP or UIM coverage
under your own policy if you get hit by another bike.


Really? IIRC my insurance guy explained that to me as covering any
kind of crash.


... Around here, that risk is probably as great or greater than
getting hit by a car, although the consequences are usually
less.


The closest call in that respect was with a buck. No kidding. He
didn't even look back, just kept running.

For UIM or PIP, you have to be hit by a motor vehicle, at least in
California. That doesn't mean you can't sue the other cyclist who
would probably have coverage under his HO policy.

If you get hit by a car on your bike or as a pedestrian, then you can
get UIM and PIP.

I was riding with my son last weekend, coming back from Canby after
crossing on the ferry and encountered some cows. I stopped just to
see if I could have a magical experience with them, like you do.
Nothing. They just stood there, looking disinterested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhcRKkwMFtY The ferry is at 1:40,
but damn it, no cows! Here's one at the TMK Creamery in Canby:
https://www.facebook.com/TMKfarms/ph...type=3&theater
I don't think that cow was among the ones I saw, though. No other
magical or impressive animals that I can recall. Maybe some horses. I
scared some Roosevelt Elk out on the coast a while back -- they can
be nasty or behave unpredictably like cow-sized squirrels, so its
best not to ride around them.
https://www.hcn.org/articles/wildlif...ns-north-coast


I found our cattle to react to music from my MP3 player. That was the
only option I had when I got them startled with my MTB. If I had
attempted to sing like cowboys would, with my voice, they'd have stampeded.

That isn't just your imagination. It seems that some dairy farmers
pipe music into the barns as they said that it increased the milk
yield. Contented cows give more milk, I suppose.

see:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...68159196011598
--
cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 12:30:35 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-28 12:03, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, March 28, 2019 at 11:32:48 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-28 01:20, wrote:
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 22:22:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/27/2019 7:44 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-27 10:25, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 7:14:41 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:

As I wrote, my car insurance is for cars _and_ bicycles.

Yes, and here's an interesting twist -- no PIP or UIM
coverage under your own policy if you get hit by another
bike.


Really? IIRC my insurance guy explained that to me as
covering any kind of crash.

Insurance guys have been known to give rather misleading
explanations.

But they give you a written contract, don't they? I know nothing
about U.S. insurance policies but the ones we got when I was
working, for our equipment for example, were pretty complete and
if there was a question we would (actually have our Lawyer) write
a letter to the insurance company clarification of that point.

Won't U.S. companies formally clarify points in their contracts?


A witnesses statement from a licensed insurance writer who works
for the underwriting company, or an email, is a pretty powerful
thing in the case of a dispute.

Not if the statement was made by an agent after the issuance of the
policy or even before the policy was issued, depending on the binder
statute in your state -- ...


It was before. I find it hard to believe that wouldn't hold in court.


... and depending on whether the agent is an
actual agent of the insurer or just a producer or broker.


Agent of the insurance company, not a broker.


... There are
a lot of variables, and the rule of thumb is that you're bound by the
terms of the policy. That is the contract between the parties. If
the agent got you the wrong policy, you may have an E&O claim --
assuming there was a right policy. Some risks simply are not
insurable. If the agent simply mis-interpreted the policy after it
was issued, that means nothing in most states.

And when it comes to UM/UIM it's all statutory.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...nNum= 11580.2.
The policy might expand coverage, but it can't limit it, and most
policies are written to conform to the state statute -- you have a
"California UM Endorsement" on your policy. It doesn't provide UIM/UM
coverage when you're hit by a bike while riding a bike -- no matter
what your agent may think.


I guess that all depends on what a jury would think.

I grant you that our equipment insurance was different than your car
insurance as we usually were insuring against loss of equipment and/or
materials while equipment was being transported to the work site, say
a 2 week barge tow to some awkward island in Indonesia, but we
demanded a letter from the insurers if any question came up before
signing a contract. Just the same as we would for a contract of work
with an oil company.

I gathered that this wasn't unusual in the trade as we never had
anyone, agent or insurer act surprised when we asked.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, March 28, 2019 at 2:59:04 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, March 28, 2019 at 5:38:23 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
Snipped
The policy you're talking about is called "event insurance." It doesn't cover suits by participants against the organizers. It covers the organizers in the event a participant causes damage to a third-party. The tank case I mentioned before involves an event policy and injuries to participants -- and no coverage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suGX-hbYwAE

-- Jay Beattie.

That explosion was caused by over loading propellant in the cartridge of the ammunition being used and the people loading it had been informed earlier that doing so was very dangerous. Given that, would an insurance policy have paid out if one had been in effect?

It depends on the policy. Absent an exclusion, a standard general liability policy with products/completed operations coverage would cover negligent reloading. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the guy who packed the cartridge is being defended under his homeowners policy. The liability portion of a HO policy covers a lot of stuff -- and doesn't cover a lot of stuff. If he had re-loaded the cartridge for pay, coverage would have been eliminated by the business pursuits exclusion.

Nationwide (Liberty) actually sells classic military vehicle policies -- like a specialized auto policy, but the vehicle has to be disarmed. No live rounds. I wonder who Arnold gets his insurance from. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVs5kgvA_Ow

-- Jay Beattie.