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Shimano Nexus 8-speed Hubs



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 1st 05, 10:05 PM
Chalo
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Default Shimano Nexus 8-speed Hubs

Sheldon Brown wrote:
Chalo wrote:

Confound it. True to clueless form, Shimano have dished up a
heaping helping of asymmetrical flange offset on a hub that
didn't need to have any.


2.7 mm is a "heaping helping" of asymmetry? Most non-flip-flop
hubs have at least this much asymmetry.


Ah, I looked at your photo of the hub without the roller brake or its
fixing nut, and I saw a bunch of offset. But as installed, the offset
is pretty reasonable.

It does make me wonder why they wouldn't make it genuinely symmetrical
for ease of wheelbuilding, though.

I continue to be completely vexed by the Sturmey Archer gearhubs that
build into dished wheels. I reckoned Shimano had given us another such
abomination, but I was wrong.

Another nugget on the towering mountain of reasons not to buy their
crap-- like I really needed another one.


"Crap?" This is the best multi-speed hub you can buy for less than
$700! Sounds like predjudice to me.


I beg to differ-- I have owned both Sachs/SRAM 7 speed hubs and Shimano
7-speed hubs, and the difference is astounding. SRAM S7 hubs give a
wider range of gears and a *much* smaller amount of drag, while seeming
generally more rugged. I have never heard of someone wearing out or
overloading a Sachs or SRAM 7-speed hub, but I have heard direct
accounts of Nexus hub failures (requiring gear body replacement) from
local shop mechanics. My two Nexus 7 hubs are on small-wheeled art
bikes that doesn't get very many miles, so I've not laid waste to them
yet.

When I ride my Nexus-7-hubbed bikes, I feel like I'm losing a whole
gear ratio to system inefficiency. Admittedly this is a tough thing to
quantify, but I don't find my SRAM hubs to display any more noticeable
drag than my derailleur bikes. They seem to drive at least as freely
as my Rohloff hub.

The Nexus 8 hub is going to have to be a *whole lot better* than the
Nexus 7 before it can be considered equal to or better than the SRAM
S7. It doesn't have a wider overall range than the SRAM S7, and it
obviously uses more sets of plantaries. The presence of a true 1:1
ratio in the new Nexus hub bodes well, but I suspect that in the field
it will prove to be a lesser product than the SRAM.

Chalo Colina

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  #22  
Old February 1st 05, 11:14 PM
Sheldon Brown
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Default Shimano Nexus 8-speed Hubs

Chalo wrote:

Sheldon Brown wrote:

Chalo wrote:


Confound it. True to clueless form, Shimano have dished up a
heaping helping of asymmetrical flange offset on a hub that
didn't need to have any.


2.7 mm is a "heaping helping" of asymmetry? Most non-flip-flop

hubs have at least this much asymmetry.



Ah, I looked at your photo of the hub without the roller brake or its
fixing nut, and I saw a bunch of offset. But as installed, the offset
is pretty reasonable.

It does make me wonder why they wouldn't make it genuinely symmetrical
for ease of wheelbuilding, though.

I continue to be completely vexed by the Sturmey Archer gearhubs that
build into dished wheels. I reckoned Shimano had given us another such
abomination, but I was wrong.


Another nugget on the towering mountain of reasons not to buy their
crap-- like I really needed another one.


"Crap?" This is the best multi-speed hub you can buy for less than
$700! Sounds like predjudice to me.



I beg to differ-- I have owned both Sachs/SRAM 7 speed hubs and Shimano
7-speed hubs, and the difference is astounding. SRAM S7 hubs give a
wider range of gears


A bike with an Alivio group will have a wider range than a bike with
Dura-Ace. Does that mean Alivio is better than Dura-Ace?

The Sram 7-speed and the Nexus 8 speed have the same range.

Sram 39/16 gives 37.5 - 114.5 inches

Nexus 8 42/16 gives 37.4 - 114.5 inches with the same wheel size.

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/internal.html

The Sram is afflicted with some excessively large jumps in the middle
of its range. 4 - 5 is a whopping 24% jump, 65.8 to 81.6 inches in the
example shown. 3 - 4 isn't much better, 23.5% (53.3 to 65.8 inches)

The jumps on the Sram 7-speed, from bottom to top a

19.3%, 19.1%, 23.5%, 24.0%, 19.4%, 17.6%


The worst jump on the Shimano is 5 - 6, 22.3% (70.0 - 86.7 in the
example listed.)

The jumps in the Nexus 8 a

22.2%, 16.1%, 13.8%, 17.5% 22.3% 16.0% and 13.8%

These seem a lot friendlier to me.

and a *much* smaller amount of drag,


That is not a universally held opinion. In any case, the 8-speed Nexus
is touted to be rather more efficient than the 7-speed.

I do own a Nexus 7, replaced a Sturmey-Archer FM 4 speed, and the Nexus
seemed noticeably easier rolling than the Sturmey.

while seeming
generally more rugged.


Some parts are, some parts aren't. Shimano's sheltered shift linkage
is very much less prone to damage than Sram's "clickbox" hanging off the
end of the axle.

I personally see no clear winner between the two 7-speed models, but 8
trumps 7.

I have never heard of someone wearing out or
overloading a Sachs or SRAM 7-speed hub, but I have heard direct
accounts of Nexus hub failures (requiring gear body replacement) from
local shop mechanics. My two Nexus 7 hubs are on small-wheeled art
bikes that doesn't get very many miles, so I've not laid waste to them
yet.

When I ride my Nexus-7-hubbed bikes, I feel like I'm losing a whole
gear ratio to system inefficiency.


On the "small wheeled art bikes?" Doesn't sound to me like a
particularly valid basis for comparison.

Admittedly this is a tough thing to
quantify, but I don't find my SRAM hubs to display any more noticeable
drag than my derailleur bikes. They seem to drive at least as freely
as my Rohloff hub.

The Nexus 8 hub is going to have to be a *whole lot better* than the
Nexus 7 before it can be considered equal to or better than the SRAM
S7.


From what I hear, it is. Not only more efficient, but with better
shifting under load, and combining the nice gear spacing of the Shimano
7 with the overall range of the Sram 7.

It doesn't have a wider overall range than the SRAM S7, and it
obviously uses more sets of plantaries. The presence of a true 1:1
ratio in the new Nexus hub bodes well, but I suspect that in the field
it will prove to be a lesser product than the SRAM.


There are actually quite a few of them in the field...what's new is the
availability of loose hubs. The ones on the road came on complete
bikes...we sell several models with this hub. Everybody I've spoken to
who has bought one loves it.

I think you're a bit too quick to condemn a product that you evidently
haven't even tried, just on the basis of what you "suspect."

Sheldon "Hope To Get Mine On The Road Soon" Brown
+--------------------------------------------+
| Opinions founded on prejudice are always |
| sustained with the greatest violence. |
| --Hebrew Proverb |
+--------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

  #23  
Old February 2nd 05, 12:36 AM
Jay Beattie
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Posts: n/a
Default Shimano Nexus 8-speed Hubs


"Sheldon Brown" wrote in message
...
Pete Biggs wrote:

Besides the extra gear, and the silent clutch, are there any

differences
in terms of perfomance, durabilty and weight between it and

the Nexus 7
hub?


The Nexus 8 is supposedly more efficent and durable, and better

able to
withstand shifting under load. It is also heavier, about 1.8

kg.

I do not follow this segment of the market. Why do people want
an internal geared hub? It seems incredibly complicated. -- Jay
Beattie.


  #24  
Old February 2nd 05, 01:07 AM
Chalo
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Posts: n/a
Default Shimano Nexus 8-speed Hubs

Jay Beattie wrote:

I do not follow this segment of the market. Why do people want
an internal geared hub? It seems incredibly complicated.


Perhaps you would be in the market for a car with an external
derailleur system then?

On one hand, such a car would be simpler, possibly more efficient, and
probably lighter than one with a gearbox. On the other, it would throw
its chain at inopportune times and wear out quickly, all the while
making a disgusting mess, demanding constant maintenance, and likely
posing a operating hazard.

This correlates nicely to my opinion of derailleur bikes as compared to
gearhub bikes. Subtract the hazardous operation, and substitute a
structurally flawed rear wheel.

Chalo Colina

  #25  
Old February 2nd 05, 02:24 AM
Chalo
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Posts: n/a
Default Shimano Nexus 8-speed Hubs

Sheldon Brown wrote:

The jumps on the Sram 7-speed, from bottom to top a

19.3%, 19.1%, 23.5%, 24.0%, 19.4%, 17.6%

The jumps in the Nexus 8 a

22.2%, 16.1%, 13.8%, 17.5% 22.3% 16.0% and 13.8%


While I've never had any objection to the gear distribution of any of
my gearhubs, it's true that the Nexus 8 looks better in that regard.

Shimano's sheltered shift linkage is very much less prone to
damage than Sram's "clickbox" hanging off the end of the axle.


That's true. It's also a lot more vexing to connect and disconnect
when you get a flat. I remember fidgeting with the shift cable on my
cargo bike for about 30 minutes one night before giving up and riding
in the few gears I could get. Back at home, with decent lighting and
all my tools, it was not too big an ordeal to get the thing working
properly-- but it still took more of a procedure than the other
gearhubs I've used.

I have been wondering: whatever became of the Sturmey Archer 8-speed
hub? It looked like it had a cable attachment that was inboard of the
dropout, but simpler than that of the Nexus.

I personally see no clear winner between the two 7-speed models, but

8
trumps 7.


I can't see how you could have ridden both the SRAM S7 and the Nexus 7
and found them comparable. I am glad that I bought my Nexus 7 hubs
below dealer cost on eBay, because I was disappointed with them after
having ridden only the SRAM. If not for that, I suppose I would have
found the Nexus OK.

The favorable impressions I have had of my Nexus 7s are these:

The axles have not bent or broken (nor have any of my gearhubs' axles).

There have been no shifting problems that I could not adjust away.

They have never left me stranded or stuck in only one gear.

--That's not too bad, considering the possibilities. Better than
derailleurs, in any case.

When I ride my Nexus-7-hubbed bikes, I feel like I'm losing a whole
gear ratio to system inefficiency.


On the "small wheeled art bikes?" Doesn't sound to me like a
particularly valid basis for comparison.


Not all choppers are as efficient as normal bikes, but mine is. Here's
an early revision of my Nexus 7 equipped chopper that has accumulated
the most mileage: http://deadbabybikes.org/bikes/choppa.htm

At this time I use a Tioga Comp Pool in the front and a Primo Comet 2.1
in the back, with about 65 and 90 psi respectively. It think it
warrants a direct efficiency comparison to my SRAM-hubbed Surly 1x1
with Ritchey Moby Bites.

My other Nexus 7 equipped bike is a 3-wheeled load-carrying platform,
and you'd be correct to assume that it doesn't constitute a fair
comparison to a regular bike.

Sheldon "Hope To Get Mine On The Road Soon" Brown


I hope you are right that the Nexus 8 is a categorical improvement over
the Nexus 7.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Opinions founded on prejudice are always |
| sustained with the greatest violence. |
| --Hebrew Proverb |
+--------------------------------------------+


Having been ripped off, let down, and seriously injured by Shimano
products, I will no longer give Shimano the benefit of the doubt as to
whether their junk is satisfactory. I will leave it to more credulous
consumers to do the proof testing that Shimano evidently decline to do
themselves.

Chalo Colina

  #26  
Old February 2nd 05, 04:31 AM
flaneur
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Shimano Nexus 8-speed Hubs

Ah, things are so much better in the frozen north. We have had the 8
spd, in stock, for three or four months now.

But, and that's in big letters, does anyone have any leads on
'alternative' shifting possibilities? The old Sachs 5-spd 2-cable,
horrid plastic shifter (25000 km, before stolen) at least let you put
the shifter where you wanted it. And I want the 8-spd on my Surly, with
drops.


In article ,
Sheldon Brown wrote:

Pete Biggs wrote:

Besides the extra gear, and the silent clutch, are there any differences
in terms of perfomance, durabilty and weight between it and the Nexus 7
hub?


The Nexus 8 is supposedly more efficent and durable, and better able to
withstand shifting under load. It is also heavier, about 1.8 kg.

Sheldon "Win Some, Lose Some" Brown
+---------------------------------------------+
| Do not needlessly endanger your lives |
| until I give you the signal. |
| --Dwight D. Eisenhower |
+---------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

  #27  
Old February 2nd 05, 05:40 AM
A Muzi
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Posts: n/a
Default Shimano Nexus 8-speed Hubs

Chalo wrote:
-snip much. Yes, this is picayune-
I continue to be completely vexed by the Sturmey Archer gearhubs that
build into dished wheels. I reckoned Shimano had given us another such
abomination, but I was wrong.


Which product? Although the ubiquitous AW _can_ have dish it
usually doesn't. Depends on left side axle spacing, which is
quite variable.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
  #28  
Old February 2nd 05, 06:02 AM
A Muzi
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Posts: n/a
Default Shimano Nexus 8-speed Hubs

Pete Biggs wrote:
-snip-
the Nexus 7 hub? The Nexus 8


"Sheldon Brown" wrote

-snip-
is supposedly more efficent and durable, and better
able to
withstand shifting under load. It is also heavier, about 1.8
kg.


Jay Beattie wrote:
I do not follow this segment of the market. Why do people want
an internal geared hub? It seems incredibly complicated. -- Jay


Mostly, no derailleur.

Although I own both, there are riders who choose a gearbox
to obviate chain falling off, to get a chain cover, to avoid
bent/rusted/colicky derailleurs, for faster shifts ( click
to low at stoplights, click to low at a near dead stop
halfway up a hill), for quieter operation, for cleaner
appearance, for longer drive train wear (can use fat $9.95
chain), and 'just because' (celebrate diversity).

There are as many reasons as riders but we find that when
there are several on the showroom floor, some are just drawn
to them. Which is the whole idea, I think!

And it isn't at all 'incredibly complicated' to the user.
Quite the inverse. Internal hubs might as well have little
robotic gerbils in there for all the average user knows. Or
cares.

I especially like the SRAM sevens because they've made more
non-cyclists into cyclists here than any product in recent
memory. Something derailleurs are just not all that good at.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
  #29  
Old February 2nd 05, 06:39 AM
Boyle M. Owl
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Default Shimano Nexus 8-speed Hubs

Jay Beattie wrote:

I do not follow this segment of the market. Why do people want
an internal geared hub? It seems incredibly complicated.


Ease of maintenence, for one. Secondly, it's less complicated *from the
user point of view* by far. Simply hop on the bike and go. No
derailleur to adjust, front or rear. Being able to shift while stopped
at a stoplight is also a plus.

IOW, it's great for city bikes.

BTW, I've got a triple and a 7 speed cassette. I only use about 4 gears
plus the granny gear to get up College Hill (Where Brown U is in
Providence RI). An 8 speed internal hub would be plenty for me.

--
BMO
  #30  
Old February 2nd 05, 09:07 AM
Chalo
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Posts: n/a
Default Shimano Nexus 8-speed Hubs

A Muzi wrote:

Chalo wrote:

I continue to be completely vexed by the Sturmey Archer gearhubs

that
build into dished wheels. I reckoned Shimano had given us another

such
abomination, but I was wrong.


Which product? Although the ubiquitous AW _can_ have dish it
usually doesn't. Depends on left side axle spacing, which is
quite variable.


The Elite 5 was the last gearhub I built into a needlessly dished
wheel. I think is was spaced 126mm or so. I don't remember the one
before that, but it also had an aluminum shell.

Chalo Colina

 




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