cyclist nearly kills himself

TripleS wrote:
Clive Coleman. wrote:
In message , Alan Holmes
writes
It is quite obvious you have never been on a bicycle, on todays
roads.
Although in the past I've done thousands of miles on cycles and
motorcycles, I haven't ridden either for about 20 years. However
past experience tells me that the correct place to be is about a
third of the carriageway from the pavement to the centre line,
allowing much faster traffic to pass you safely and allowing you
room to escape if some moron tries to cut you up.

Thank you Clive - I think that makes sense. I don't expect people on
push bikes or motorbikes to be in the gutter all the time amongst the
rough surfaces and general debris, but nor should they (IMHO) be
taking up too much space and seeking to dominate the scene. Within
reason it might have some merit at times, but there are other times
when their best interests might be served by keeping out of the way a
bit.

But if they are effectively occupying no more space than a car how are they
dominating the scene and why should they keep out of the way any more than a
car?

TripleS wrote:
Tony Raven wrote:
TripleS wrote on 23/12/2006 16:46 +0100:

I'm not disagreeing about that.

All I'm saying is that IMHO the bikers often sit too far out into
the road, gaining no particular benefit for themselves, but what
they are doing is making vision worse for a following driver
looking to overtake.

Cycling there though is the recommended position in the Government
published Cyclecraft and the National Cycle Training Standards[1]. It may
not have benefits that you perceive but the safety benefits
are actually quite significant which is why it is taught.

If vision past is that marginal its probably not safe to overtake
anyway. [1] e.g. "Understand where to ride on roads being used
Cyclists
should not cycle in the gutter. Where there is little other traffic
and/or there is plenty of room to be overtaken they may ride in the
secondary position.
Where the road is narrow and two-way traffic would make it dangerous
for the cyclist to be overtaken by a following vehicle they may
choose to ride in the primary position.
If the cyclist is riding at the speed of other traffic then they
should do so in the primary position. Cyclists may be wary of
cycling in the primary position as this will put them in the stream
of traffic when their natural instinct might be to keep away from
it. However, where appropriate, it will actually offer them more
protection as they will be able to see more, be seen more easily by
other road users and most importantly it will prevent drivers from
attempting to overtake them where the road is too narrow.
If unsure, the default position is the primary position."

The secondary position is half to one metre from the edge of the
lane, the primary position is in the centre of the lane.


Well thanks for that Tony, but I would ask that we draw a distinction
between people on pedal cycles and those on motorbikes. We started
out with the push bike folks, and I've now moved on to talking about
the motorcyclists.

I have no problem with anybody taking specific measures *as
appropriate at particular times* to protect their safety, but the
standard positioning of the motor cycle brigade - always out by the
centre-line - does not seem to me to give them any benefit all the
time, but they do it all the time, seemingly disregarding the
interests of other road users, particularly those who might seek to
make a perfectly legitimate and respectable overtaking move.

If there's enough room to overtake what's the problem? If there isn't then
hold back. If it was a car you'd have to wait, why should you treat a bike
differently?

Why should any one class of vehicle have to make space for another beyond
the normal rules of safe driving?

"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Alan Holmes wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
TripleS wrote:
Alan Holmes wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
TripleS wrote:
Conor wrote:
In article , TripleS says...

Pardon my ignorance, but what is meant by Primary position?
Does it mean cycling down the middle of a lane in order
prevent (or at least discourage) a driver from overtaking you?
Pretty much. It's supposed to be slightly to the right as I
recall on a motorbike.

Thanks for that.

I've noticed motorcyclists often position themselves just to
the left of the centre-line as standard procedure on single
carriageway roads, even when it appears to offer no advantage
to them. This can be a nuisance if you're looking to overtake
them* and it can give the impression that they're trying to be
obstructive, though they may not be.
* Yes OK, I do appreciate that normally it's the bikers who are
doing the overtaking!
If you you look at the position of the driver, rather than the
vehicle, they should be occupying the same relative position on
the road as a car or van driver.
I'm not sure that I see the reasoning there. Whether we're
driving cars or riding motorbikes I think keeping tucked in to
the left as far as reasonably possible is the thing to do, though
of course we may decide to depart from this from time to time for
improving vision etc. There is also the point that none of us
should be expected to
drive/ride so close to the edge that we fall foul of all the
rough stuff and debris that tends to accumulate there.

Having said all that, I still feel the bikers take up more space
near the centre of the road than seems appropriate.
Simple, if there's not enough space to overtake a car then there's
not enough to pass a bike. The biker adopting the commanding
position makes the car driver wanting to pass think about it
rather than trying to squeeze past and force the bike into the
gutter or worse.
I'm not wanting to squeeze past or force them into the gutter or
anything like that, but it does make it that bit more difficult to
get a clear view past them when they are so far out into the road.
Just like trying to see round a car!

I'm not disagreeing about that.

All I'm saying is that IMHO the bikers often sit too far out into the
road, gaining no particular benefit for themselves, but what they are
doing is making vision worse for a following driver looking to
overtake.
They are gaining a considerable benefit for themselves. They're giving
themselves space for when some inconsiderate car driver tries to
overtake with insufficient clearance.

No they are not.

All together now, Oh yes they are!

One, perhaps all on his own: "No they are not!"

By occupying a space close to the centre-line of the
road they obtain no general advantage for themselves, unless they are
seeking to enhance their vision - which does not apply on a long
straight road free from junctions or suchlike hazards - but still they
do it.

It is quite obvious you have never been on a bicycle, on todays roads.

Not true, Alan - but in any case you seem to be ignoring the fact that I'm
mainly talking about motorcyclists.

Well you may have missread the header, but the post started out as a post
about bicycles. without motors, propelled by pedals and feet.

Alan


Best wishes all,
Dave.

"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Clive Coleman. wrote:
In message , Alan Holmes
writes
It is quite obvious you have never been on a bicycle, on todays roads.
Although in the past I've done thousands of miles on cycles and
motorcycles, I haven't ridden either for about 20 years. However past
experience tells me that the correct place to be is about a third of the
carriageway from the pavement to the centre line, allowing much faster
traffic to pass you safely and allowing you room to escape if some moron
tries to cut you up.

Thank you Clive - I think that makes sense. I don't expect people on push
bikes or motorbikes to be in the gutter all the time amongst the rough
surfaces and general debris, but nor should they (IMHO) be taking up too
much space and seeking to dominate the scene. Within reason it might have
some merit at times, but there are other times when their best interests
might be served by keeping out of the way a bit.

So they can be pushed out of the way by unruly motorists?

Some time ago I went into a branch of Halfords to enquire about an
indicator, which was fixed to the rear of a bicycle, which stuck out so that
anyone following would have to allow the cyclist a little bit of room, the
rather stupid woman who worked there told me they were dangerous, as it
prevented her from passing, which implied that she was prepared to drive so
close to the cyclist as to be dangerous!

Alan


Best wishes all,
Dave.

Alan Holmes wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Alan Holmes wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
TripleS wrote:
Alan Holmes wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
TripleS wrote:
Conor wrote:
In article , TripleS says...

Pardon my ignorance, but what is meant by Primary position?
Does it mean cycling down the middle of a lane in order
prevent (or at least discourage) a driver from overtaking you?
Pretty much. It's supposed to be slightly to the right as I
recall on a motorbike.

Thanks for that.

I've noticed motorcyclists often position themselves just to
the left of the centre-line as standard procedure on single
carriageway roads, even when it appears to offer no advantage
to them. This can be a nuisance if you're looking to overtake
them* and it can give the impression that they're trying to be
obstructive, though they may not be.
* Yes OK, I do appreciate that normally it's the bikers who are
doing the overtaking!
If you you look at the position of the driver, rather than the
vehicle, they should be occupying the same relative position on
the road as a car or van driver.
I'm not sure that I see the reasoning there. Whether we're
driving cars or riding motorbikes I think keeping tucked in to
the left as far as reasonably possible is the thing to do, though
of course we may decide to depart from this from time to time for
improving vision etc. There is also the point that none of us
should be expected to
drive/ride so close to the edge that we fall foul of all the
rough stuff and debris that tends to accumulate there.

Having said all that, I still feel the bikers take up more space
near the centre of the road than seems appropriate.
Simple, if there's not enough space to overtake a car then there's
not enough to pass a bike. The biker adopting the commanding
position makes the car driver wanting to pass think about it
rather than trying to squeeze past and force the bike into the
gutter or worse.
I'm not wanting to squeeze past or force them into the gutter or
anything like that, but it does make it that bit more difficult to
get a clear view past them when they are so far out into the road.
Just like trying to see round a car!

I'm not disagreeing about that.

All I'm saying is that IMHO the bikers often sit too far out into the
road, gaining no particular benefit for themselves, but what they are
doing is making vision worse for a following driver looking to
overtake.
They are gaining a considerable benefit for themselves. They're giving
themselves space for when some inconsiderate car driver tries to
overtake with insufficient clearance.

No they are not.
All together now, Oh yes they are!
One, perhaps all on his own: "No they are not!"

By occupying a space close to the centre-line of the
road they obtain no general advantage for themselves, unless they are
seeking to enhance their vision - which does not apply on a long
straight road free from junctions or suchlike hazards - but still they
do it.
It is quite obvious you have never been on a bicycle, on todays roads.
Not true, Alan - but in any case you seem to be ignoring the fact that I'm
mainly talking about motorcyclists.

Well you may have missread the header, but the post started out as a post
about bicycles. without motors, propelled by pedals and feet.

Alan


Yes I know it started out by talking about push bikes, but then
references were made to motorcyclists, and that's what I've been
referring to latterly. Sorry Alan, but is that not allowed? :-)

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Brimstone wrote:
TripleS wrote:
Tony Raven wrote:
TripleS wrote on 23/12/2006 16:46 +0100:
I'm not disagreeing about that.

All I'm saying is that IMHO the bikers often sit too far out into
the road, gaining no particular benefit for themselves, but what
they are doing is making vision worse for a following driver
looking to overtake.
Cycling there though is the recommended position in the Government
published Cyclecraft and the National Cycle Training Standards[1]. It may
not have benefits that you perceive but the safety benefits
are actually quite significant which is why it is taught.

If vision past is that marginal its probably not safe to overtake
anyway. [1] e.g. "Understand where to ride on roads being used
Cyclists
should not cycle in the gutter. Where there is little other traffic
and/or there is plenty of room to be overtaken they may ride in the
secondary position.
Where the road is narrow and two-way traffic would make it dangerous
for the cyclist to be overtaken by a following vehicle they may
choose to ride in the primary position.
If the cyclist is riding at the speed of other traffic then they
should do so in the primary position. Cyclists may be wary of
cycling in the primary position as this will put them in the stream
of traffic when their natural instinct might be to keep away from
it. However, where appropriate, it will actually offer them more
protection as they will be able to see more, be seen more easily by
other road users and most importantly it will prevent drivers from
attempting to overtake them where the road is too narrow.
If unsure, the default position is the primary position."

The secondary position is half to one metre from the edge of the
lane, the primary position is in the centre of the lane.

Well thanks for that Tony, but I would ask that we draw a distinction
between people on pedal cycles and those on motorbikes. We started
out with the push bike folks, and I've now moved on to talking about
the motorcyclists.

I have no problem with anybody taking specific measures *as
appropriate at particular times* to protect their safety, but the
standard positioning of the motor cycle brigade - always out by the
centre-line - does not seem to me to give them any benefit all the
time, but they do it all the time, seemingly disregarding the
interests of other road users, particularly those who might seek to
make a perfectly legitimate and respectable overtaking move.

If there's enough room to overtake what's the problem? If there isn't then
hold back. If it was a car you'd have to wait, why should you treat a bike
differently?

Why should any one class of vehicle have to make space for another beyond
the normal rules of safe driving?


I've primarily been referring to the fact that if a road user in front
of you takes up a position more to the right, it makes it more dificult
for the following driver to get a decent view past them. It can still
be done usually, but you need to go further right yourself (if it is
safe to do so) in order to get the view you want, and it takes longer to
get that view, by which time what could have been a safe overtaking
opportunity may have gone.

If there is is insufficient space (in width terms) for the overtaking,
then of course it is not on, and I've never suggested otherwise.

....and I'm not advocating anybody doing anything outside the realms of
normal safe driving, and being aware of others' wishes, and being
reasonably co-operative - as I would try to be - and I think you know that.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

David Taylor wrote:
On 2006-12-21, Earl Purple wrote:

The correct way to behave when crossing at a traffic light is to wait
for the signal to change, then make sure all the traffic has stopped or
is clearly going to stop, and then move out. Jumping out the second the
signal turns red without looking first is not the appropriate course.

How does this fit with what you say below?

[snip]

btw, it is not always possible for a cycle to stop in 3 seconds and you
cannot expect cyclists to slow down as they approach green lights in
case they change.

You cannot possibly be claiming that cyclists cannot safely stop for
traffic lights. If you are, then I most certainly can expect them
to slow down as they approach green lights. Or alternatively they
can just get run over -- as you said above, jumping the light the
second it turns red "is not the appropriate course" .

They should not get run over because before you set out on a green
light, you need to ensure that the road is clear. There will often be
traffic still turning right from the side roads. You can't drive into
them just because your light is green. In fact it makes no difference
where they are going, green means "go with caution" not "go at all
costs".

The same applies if you are a pedestrian - you proceed to cross with
caution once having ensured that all the traffic on the road has
stopped for you, or is clearly going to stop.

"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Alan Holmes wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Alan Holmes wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
TripleS wrote:
Alan Holmes wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
TripleS wrote:
Conor wrote:
In article , TripleS says...

Pardon my ignorance, but what is meant by Primary position?
Does it mean cycling down the middle of a lane in order
prevent (or at least discourage) a driver from overtaking
you?
Pretty much. It's supposed to be slightly to the right as I
recall on a motorbike.

Thanks for that.

I've noticed motorcyclists often position themselves just to
the left of the centre-line as standard procedure on single
carriageway roads, even when it appears to offer no advantage
to them. This can be a nuisance if you're looking to overtake
them* and it can give the impression that they're trying to be
obstructive, though they may not be.
* Yes OK, I do appreciate that normally it's the bikers who
are
doing the overtaking!
If you you look at the position of the driver, rather than the
vehicle, they should be occupying the same relative position on
the road as a car or van driver.
I'm not sure that I see the reasoning there. Whether we're
driving cars or riding motorbikes I think keeping tucked in to
the left as far as reasonably possible is the thing to do,
though
of course we may decide to depart from this from time to time
for
improving vision etc. There is also the point that none of us
should be expected to
drive/ride so close to the edge that we fall foul of all the
rough stuff and debris that tends to accumulate there.

Having said all that, I still feel the bikers take up more space
near the centre of the road than seems appropriate.
Simple, if there's not enough space to overtake a car then
there's
not enough to pass a bike. The biker adopting the commanding
position makes the car driver wanting to pass think about it
rather than trying to squeeze past and force the bike into the
gutter or worse.
I'm not wanting to squeeze past or force them into the gutter or
anything like that, but it does make it that bit more difficult to
get a clear view past them when they are so far out into the road.
Just like trying to see round a car!

I'm not disagreeing about that.

All I'm saying is that IMHO the bikers often sit too far out into
the
road, gaining no particular benefit for themselves, but what they
are
doing is making vision worse for a following driver looking to
overtake.
They are gaining a considerable benefit for themselves. They're
giving themselves space for when some inconsiderate car driver tries
to overtake with insufficient clearance.

No they are not.
All together now, Oh yes they are!
One, perhaps all on his own: "No they are not!"

By occupying a space close to the centre-line of the
road they obtain no general advantage for themselves, unless they are
seeking to enhance their vision - which does not apply on a long
straight road free from junctions or suchlike hazards - but still they
do it.
It is quite obvious you have never been on a bicycle, on todays roads.
Not true, Alan - but in any case you seem to be ignoring the fact that
I'm mainly talking about motorcyclists.

Well you may have missread the header, but the post started out as a post
about bicycles. without motors, propelled by pedals and feet.

Alan


Yes I know it started out by talking about push bikes, but then references
were made to motorcyclists, and that's what I've been referring to
latterly. Sorry Alan, but is that not allowed? :-)

Oh, go on then, I forgive you, this time!(:-)

Alan

Alan Holmes wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Alan Holmes wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Alan Holmes wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
TripleS wrote:
Alan Holmes wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
"TripleS" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
TripleS wrote:
Conor wrote:
In article , TripleS says...

Pardon my ignorance, but what is meant by Primary position?
Does it mean cycling down the middle of a lane in order
prevent (or at least discourage) a driver from overtaking
you?
Pretty much. It's supposed to be slightly to the right as I
recall on a motorbike.

Thanks for that.

I've noticed motorcyclists often position themselves just to
the left of the centre-line as standard procedure on single
carriageway roads, even when it appears to offer no advantage
to them. This can be a nuisance if you're looking to overtake
them* and it can give the impression that they're trying to be
obstructive, though they may not be.
* Yes OK, I do appreciate that normally it's the bikers who
are
doing the overtaking!
If you you look at the position of the driver, rather than the
vehicle, they should be occupying the same relative position on
the road as a car or van driver.
I'm not sure that I see the reasoning there. Whether we're
driving cars or riding motorbikes I think keeping tucked in to
the left as far as reasonably possible is the thing to do,
though
of course we may decide to depart from this from time to time
for
improving vision etc. There is also the point that none of us
should be expected to
drive/ride so close to the edge that we fall foul of all the
rough stuff and debris that tends to accumulate there.

Having said all that, I still feel the bikers take up more space
near the centre of the road than seems appropriate.
Simple, if there's not enough space to overtake a car then
there's
not enough to pass a bike. The biker adopting the commanding
position makes the car driver wanting to pass think about it
rather than trying to squeeze past and force the bike into the
gutter or worse.
I'm not wanting to squeeze past or force them into the gutter or
anything like that, but it does make it that bit more difficult to
get a clear view past them when they are so far out into the road.
Just like trying to see round a car!

I'm not disagreeing about that.

All I'm saying is that IMHO the bikers often sit too far out into
the
road, gaining no particular benefit for themselves, but what they
are
doing is making vision worse for a following driver looking to
overtake.
They are gaining a considerable benefit for themselves. They're
giving themselves space for when some inconsiderate car driver tries
to overtake with insufficient clearance.

No they are not.
All together now, Oh yes they are!
One, perhaps all on his own: "No they are not!"

By occupying a space close to the centre-line of the
road they obtain no general advantage for themselves, unless they are
seeking to enhance their vision - which does not apply on a long
straight road free from junctions or suchlike hazards - but still they
do it.
It is quite obvious you have never been on a bicycle, on todays roads.
Not true, Alan - but in any case you seem to be ignoring the fact that
I'm mainly talking about motorcyclists.
Well you may have missread the header, but the post started out as a post
about bicycles. without motors, propelled by pedals and feet.

Alan

Yes I know it started out by talking about push bikes, but then references
were made to motorcyclists, and that's what I've been referring to
latterly. Sorry Alan, but is that not allowed? :-)

Oh, go on then, I forgive you, this time!(:-)

Alan


Ah the old Christmas Spirit - I could do with a drop of that. Thanks
Alan. You're a gent. :-)

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Alan Holmes wrote:

Some time ago I went into a branch of Halfords to enquire about an
indicator, which was fixed to the rear of a bicycle, which stuck out so that
anyone following would have to allow the cyclist a little bit of room, the
rather stupid woman who worked there told me they were dangerous, as it
prevented her from passing, which implied that she was prepared to drive so
close to the cyclist as to be dangerous!

If they're really not dangerous for other road-users,
perhaps we should all have three down each side of our
cars.