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  #51  
Old April 7th 21, 03:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,165
Default tubeless or tubes

On 4/6/2021 2:59 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, April 6, 2021 at 9:41:12 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/6/2021 10:47 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 6:06:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/5/2021 7:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:29:26 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.

The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.

You must be a member of the CCC (Cynical Cycling Club).

Marginally related tube drivel:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air.
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.

2. Last years CZU fire and subsequent wind storm(s) gave a big boost
to the home repair business. One of the side effects is the various
amateur and professional contractors tend to leave nails all over the
road. This year, I picked up a nail in the tread, which I
successfully plugged on my 3rd try. I expect to find more nails in my
tires until after the construction is done. Yes, we sweep the road
with a magnetic pickup tool, but the nails are good at hiding. Looking
at the damage, I'm fairly sure that I would not have had a problem if
my tire had an inner tube.

3. I'm on my last Nashbar leaky bicycle inner tube. I started with 6
cheap tubes, all of which have leaked to varying degrees. I'll soon
need to make a decision as to whether to buy some more cheap tubes,
some expensive better tubes, Slime Sealant, or go tubeless with
sealant. Since I'm cheap, it will probably more cheap leaky tubes.



On that style tire, wet the bead set with soapy water or
spray wax, cinch your belt or similar around the tire and
inflate quickly. It will snap onto the seats.

Uh, Andrew? You have a belt long enough to go around a 700c? Exactly how much do you weigh? Or are you speaking of John?

I'm sorry Tom, you've lost track of the conversation yet again.


Since you can't keep track of the conversation Frank perhaps I should quote Andrew so you can find the conversation again. "On that style tire, wet the bead set with soapy water or spray wax, cinch your belt or similar around the tire and inflate quickly. It will snap onto the seats."

I realize that the Alzheimer's is catching up with you rapidly, but do you really have to make it so public?


Tom, both Jeff and Andrew were talking about tires for things like hand
cars and motorized wheelchairs. They were not talking about 700C bicycle
tires.

Please, slow down and take notes.

--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #52  
Old April 7th 21, 03:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,314
Default tubeless or tubes

On Tuesday, April 6, 2021 at 7:35:31 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 07:47:12 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 6:06:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/5/2021 7:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:29:26 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.

The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.

You must be a member of the CCC (Cynical Cycling Club).

Marginally related tube drivel:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air.
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.

2. Last years CZU fire and subsequent wind storm(s) gave a big boost
to the home repair business. One of the side effects is the various
amateur and professional contractors tend to leave nails all over the
road. This year, I picked up a nail in the tread, which I
successfully plugged on my 3rd try. I expect to find more nails in my
tires until after the construction is done. Yes, we sweep the road
with a magnetic pickup tool, but the nails are good at hiding. Looking
at the damage, I'm fairly sure that I would not have had a problem if
my tire had an inner tube.

3. I'm on my last Nashbar leaky bicycle inner tube. I started with 6
cheap tubes, all of which have leaked to varying degrees. I'll soon
need to make a decision as to whether to buy some more cheap tubes,
some expensive better tubes, Slime Sealant, or go tubeless with
sealant. Since I'm cheap, it will probably more cheap leaky tubes.



On that style tire, wet the bead set with soapy water or
spray wax, cinch your belt or similar around the tire and
inflate quickly. It will snap onto the seats.


Uh, Andrew? You have a belt long enough to go around a 700c? Exactly how much do you weigh? Or are you speaking of John?

Yup, I'm getting fat. This morning I weighed 63 kg. I'll have to go on
a diet.


You forgot to add that you're 5' tall and in the final stages of cancer.
  #53  
Old April 7th 21, 03:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,314
Default tubeless or tubes

On Tuesday, April 6, 2021 at 7:57:56 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/6/2021 2:59 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, April 6, 2021 at 9:41:12 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/6/2021 10:47 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 6:06:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/5/2021 7:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:29:26 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.

The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.

You must be a member of the CCC (Cynical Cycling Club).

Marginally related tube drivel:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air..
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.

2. Last years CZU fire and subsequent wind storm(s) gave a big boost
to the home repair business. One of the side effects is the various
amateur and professional contractors tend to leave nails all over the
road. This year, I picked up a nail in the tread, which I
successfully plugged on my 3rd try. I expect to find more nails in my
tires until after the construction is done. Yes, we sweep the road
with a magnetic pickup tool, but the nails are good at hiding. Looking
at the damage, I'm fairly sure that I would not have had a problem if
my tire had an inner tube.

3. I'm on my last Nashbar leaky bicycle inner tube. I started with 6
cheap tubes, all of which have leaked to varying degrees. I'll soon
need to make a decision as to whether to buy some more cheap tubes,
some expensive better tubes, Slime Sealant, or go tubeless with
sealant. Since I'm cheap, it will probably more cheap leaky tubes.



On that style tire, wet the bead set with soapy water or
spray wax, cinch your belt or similar around the tire and
inflate quickly. It will snap onto the seats.

Uh, Andrew? You have a belt long enough to go around a 700c? Exactly how much do you weigh? Or are you speaking of John?
I'm sorry Tom, you've lost track of the conversation yet again.


Since you can't keep track of the conversation Frank perhaps I should quote Andrew so you can find the conversation again. "On that style tire, wet the bead set with soapy water or spray wax, cinch your belt or similar around the tire and inflate quickly. It will snap onto the seats."

I realize that the Alzheimer's is catching up with you rapidly, but do you really have to make it so public?

Tom, both Jeff and Andrew were talking about tires for things like hand
cars and motorized wheelchairs. They were not talking about 700C bicycle
tires.

Please, slow down and take notes.


There is your dementia kicking in again,

"I wonder what most regular cyclist are riding these days. I see so much on tubeless sets up and I have never given it a thought. I don't flat much so I just do not see the benefit at all and really so much easier just putting a tube in. I am I in the minority these days?

Deacon Mark"
  #54  
Old April 7th 21, 04:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,816
Default tubeless or tubes

On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 12:46:44 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

I'd prefer a fire piston. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_piston


Good idea. I've built a few of those over the years for various
nefarious purposes. The problem for me was that the oxygen inside the
cylinder is rapidly depleted once the tinder starts burning. The hard
part is removing the piston and tinder from the cylinder before the
fire goes out. It can be done, but you have to be quick.

ISTM it would be a trivial modification of a frame pump or mini pump.


With a compression ratio of 25:1, the internal pressure would need to
be atmospheric pressure times the compression ratio minus one
atmosphere for gauge pressure or:
(24 * 14.7 psi) = 353 psi
The volume of a floor pump is sufficient to obtain a 25:1 volumetric
reduction if the piston goes all the way to the bottom of the tube.
However, it looks like length of the piston has been intentionally
shortened to prevent achieving such a high compression ratio. The
gauge on my floor pump also says that's not going happen (at least
until after the gauge explodes). I tried removing the hose and
pumping furiously to see if anything leaked. It seems that the rubber
piston seal and one-way valve leak rather badly. Without major
redesign and possibly some mechanical leverage, it's not going to
happen.

However, there are multistage bicycle pumps, designed to hand inflate
high pressure bicycle tires, which might work:
"High pressure, multiple-stage air pump with valve body inlet port
arrangement"
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8047818B2/en

If unsuitable for making a fire starter, it might be useful for
building a bicycle defense air gun giving new meaning to "taking the
lane".

Hmm. But then there would be no need for the butane. Yes, marketing can
be complicated!


Actually it's quite simple. The purpose of marketing is to convince
the potential buying public that they have a problem that is worth
solving. The purpose of sales is to then convince the buying public
that they have a solution for the newly created problem. Of course,
this creates yet another opportunity for marketing to identify a
problem with the solution and the cycle repeats itself ad infinitum.

Soon, everyone will be riding bicycles armed with a bicycle pump that
can double as a flame thrower, air gun, or in an emergency, tire
inflator.

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #55  
Old April 7th 21, 04:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,816
Default tubeless or tubes

On Wed, 07 Apr 2021 08:23:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
Soon, everyone will be riding bicycles armed with a bicycle pump that
can double as a flame thrower, air gun, or in an emergency, tire
inflator.


I forgot to mention another use for a conventional bicycle pump.
I received a free and very used Coleman 413G camp stove:
https://www.google.com/search?q=coleman+413g&tbm=isch
Unfortunately, the previous clueless owner had left E10 gasoline in
the tank under pressure. The ethanol plus water in the gasoline
leaked into the air pump cylinder section of the tank which corroded
the bottom the cylinder. The damage was too extensive to repair. So,
I plugged the piston pump section of the tank and replaced the filler
cap with one that had a Schrader bicycle valve inserted:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/291854107043
Using any bicycle pump, I can now pressurize the tank, and sacrifice
my dinner on the camp stove to the bicycle gods.


--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #56  
Old April 8th 21, 01:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,229
Default tubeless or tubes

On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 07:41:21 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 6, 2021 at 7:35:31 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 07:47:12 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 6:06:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/5/2021 7:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:29:26 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.

The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.

You must be a member of the CCC (Cynical Cycling Club).

Marginally related tube drivel:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air.
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.

2. Last years CZU fire and subsequent wind storm(s) gave a big boost
to the home repair business. One of the side effects is the various
amateur and professional contractors tend to leave nails all over the
road. This year, I picked up a nail in the tread, which I
successfully plugged on my 3rd try. I expect to find more nails in my
tires until after the construction is done. Yes, we sweep the road
with a magnetic pickup tool, but the nails are good at hiding. Looking
at the damage, I'm fairly sure that I would not have had a problem if
my tire had an inner tube.

3. I'm on my last Nashbar leaky bicycle inner tube. I started with 6
cheap tubes, all of which have leaked to varying degrees. I'll soon
need to make a decision as to whether to buy some more cheap tubes,
some expensive better tubes, Slime Sealant, or go tubeless with
sealant. Since I'm cheap, it will probably more cheap leaky tubes.



On that style tire, wet the bead set with soapy water or
spray wax, cinch your belt or similar around the tire and
inflate quickly. It will snap onto the seats.

Uh, Andrew? You have a belt long enough to go around a 700c? Exactly how much do you weigh? Or are you speaking of John?

Yup, I'm getting fat. This morning I weighed 63 kg. I'll have to go on
a diet.


You forgot to add that you're 5' tall and in the final stages of cancer.


Final stage of cancer? As is normal for Tommy Boy, he doesn't know
what he is talking about. Pacemaker yes, cancer no.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #57  
Old April 8th 21, 11:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Roger Merriman[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 342
Default tubeless or tubes

sms wrote:
On 4/6/2021 1:08 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2021 8:59 PM, Mark cleary wrote:
I wonder what most regular cyclist are riding these days. I see so much
on tubeless sets up and I have never given it a thought. I don't flat
much so I just do not see the benefit at all and really so much easier
just putting a tube in. I am I in the minority these days?

I'm not aware of any of my riding friends using tubeless.

The bike industry, including bike magazines, always have to hype
_something_ new. Don't confuse hype with actual benefits or actual
practice.

One or two of mine are generally folks whose bikes have come set up new
like it.

I personally haven’t bothered, put off by the hassle and cost.

Plus well tubes work for me.

Roger Merriman


I don't think many people go out and convert a bicycle with wheels that
don't support tubeless into tubeless by buying new wheels. I do see some
new bicycles with wheels that support tubeless but that don't ship with
tubeless.

You'd think that the inconvenience and the expense would put most people
off of tubeless, but you never know. Just like I question the
inconvenience, weight, and expense of CO2 cartridges versus a mini-pump.
You can buy a mini-pump that weighs as little as 25 grams, much less
than a Co2 cartridge and an inflator, but some people love the speed of
a CO2 cartridge (until they run out of CO2 and have to borrow someone's
pump).

The MTB has wheels and tires that could be set up, but I’ve never really
been tempted, I tend to use higher pressures (slightly) 30psi or so as I
hate the sidewall wallowing, it punctures so rarely that is a non issue.

The Gravel has non tubeless rims and again on the whole it works, i mix
road and gravel and mild MTB trails, again settled on a psi that is just
above the point the tires wallow if I push them. Which for Gravel is 50psi.

I hate CO2 total pain in the ass, I have settled on a mini pump with hose,
which copes with tires from 35mm to 60mm+ if perhaps slowly!

Roger Merriman

  #58  
Old April 8th 21, 02:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,314
Default tubeless or tubes

On Thursday, April 8, 2021 at 3:23:39 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 4/6/2021 1:08 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2021 8:59 PM, Mark cleary wrote:
I wonder what most regular cyclist are riding these days. I see so much
on tubeless sets up and I have never given it a thought. I don't flat
much so I just do not see the benefit at all and really so much easier
just putting a tube in. I am I in the minority these days?

I'm not aware of any of my riding friends using tubeless.

The bike industry, including bike magazines, always have to hype
_something_ new. Don't confuse hype with actual benefits or actual
practice.

One or two of mine are generally folks whose bikes have come set up new
like it.

I personally haven’t bothered, put off by the hassle and cost.

Plus well tubes work for me.

Roger Merriman


I don't think many people go out and convert a bicycle with wheels that
don't support tubeless into tubeless by buying new wheels. I do see some
new bicycles with wheels that support tubeless but that don't ship with
tubeless.

You'd think that the inconvenience and the expense would put most people
off of tubeless, but you never know. Just like I question the
inconvenience, weight, and expense of CO2 cartridges versus a mini-pump..
You can buy a mini-pump that weighs as little as 25 grams, much less
than a Co2 cartridge and an inflator, but some people love the speed of
a CO2 cartridge (until they run out of CO2 and have to borrow someone's
pump).

The MTB has wheels and tires that could be set up, but I’ve never really
been tempted, I tend to use higher pressures (slightly) 30psi or so as I
hate the sidewall wallowing, it punctures so rarely that is a non issue.

The Gravel has non tubeless rims and again on the whole it works, i mix
road and gravel and mild MTB trails, again settled on a psi that is just
above the point the tires wallow if I push them. Which for Gravel is 50psi.

I hate CO2 total pain in the ass, I have settled on a mini pump with hose,
which copes with tires from 35mm to 60mm+ if perhaps slowly!


If you are a downhill racer, tubeless tires are an absolute necessity because they run low pressures to be able to ride over anything. But if you're not suicidal, tubes work perfectly well.
  #59  
Old April 8th 21, 06:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,616
Default tubeless or tubes

On Thu, 8 Apr 2021 10:23:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger Merriman
wrote:

I hate CO2 total pain in the ass, I have settled on a mini pump with hose,
which copes with tires from 35mm to 60mm+ if perhaps slowly!


And I have replaced the whole mess with a flip phone. If I puncture,
the ride is over. As long as I stay off US30, this isn't a problem.


--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

  #60  
Old April 8th 21, 10:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Roger Merriman[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 342
Default tubeless or tubes

Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, April 8, 2021 at 3:23:39 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
sms wrote:
On 4/6/2021 1:08 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2021 8:59 PM, Mark cleary wrote:
I wonder what most regular cyclist are riding these days. I see so much
on tubeless sets up and I have never given it a thought. I don't flat
much so I just do not see the benefit at all and really so much easier
just putting a tube in. I am I in the minority these days?

I'm not aware of any of my riding friends using tubeless.

The bike industry, including bike magazines, always have to hype
_something_ new. Don't confuse hype with actual benefits or actual
practice.

One or two of mine are generally folks whose bikes have come set up new
like it.

I personally haven’t bothered, put off by the hassle and cost.

Plus well tubes work for me.

Roger Merriman

I don't think many people go out and convert a bicycle with wheels that
don't support tubeless into tubeless by buying new wheels. I do see some
new bicycles with wheels that support tubeless but that don't ship with
tubeless.

You'd think that the inconvenience and the expense would put most people
off of tubeless, but you never know. Just like I question the
inconvenience, weight, and expense of CO2 cartridges versus a mini-pump.
You can buy a mini-pump that weighs as little as 25 grams, much less
than a Co2 cartridge and an inflator, but some people love the speed of
a CO2 cartridge (until they run out of CO2 and have to borrow someone's
pump).

The MTB has wheels and tires that could be set up, but I’ve never really
been tempted, I tend to use higher pressures (slightly) 30psi or so as I
hate the sidewall wallowing, it punctures so rarely that is a non issue.

The Gravel has non tubeless rims and again on the whole it works, i mix
road and gravel and mild MTB trails, again settled on a psi that is just
above the point the tires wallow if I push them. Which for Gravel is 50psi.

I hate CO2 total pain in the ass, I have settled on a mini pump with hose,
which copes with tires from 35mm to 60mm+ if perhaps slowly!


If you are a downhill racer, tubeless tires are an absolute necessity
because they run low pressures to be able to ride over anything. But if
you're not suicidal, tubes work perfectly well.

Ha far from it! Though DH racers tend to run higher pressures as they load
up the tires and do jumps and what not, it’s also where tubes hung on the
longest in pro ranks as far as I’m aware, push hard and you can roll a tire
off the rim.

It’s XC racers who tend to run seriously low pressures that and some Gravel
riders, though most are more conservative ie higher pressures, in real
life!

Roger Merriman

 




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